American Lager 2013 NHC Bronze Medal Winner: Classic American Pilsner

[HopRodGR]

I'm intrigued at your use of Aromatic Malt. I was planning on layering in some Light Munich, but that's like a 7L malt vs 20L-ish for Aromatic. How apparent is it at 6%? Clearly it must work pretty well as your medal suggests!

 

[pjj2ba]

I like aromatic malt. I use it to boost malty flavors. Munich would be fine. The flavor does not stand out, I don't want it to. I think flavors that stand out are a detraction in this style. I think balance is very important, more so than in many other styles.

 

[beernutz]

I would like to get the OP's opinion on the value of mashing using various rests versus doing just a simple infusion and possibly a mashout. How much of a difference in the final product do you feel your approach gives you? Just an estimate like no difference, a little, a lot, massive, it's everything is what I am respectfully asking for. It is Friday afternoon, and I've had a couple of my own as I type this and I hope I don't sound too pushy with my request.

Is your mashing schedule dependent on the type of grains used?

Your recipe calls for:
protein rest 20 min at 122 F
sacch rest for 30 min. at 147 F
Dextrin rest for 15 min. at 160 F
Mash out at 168 F, no rest

Given your outstanding results reflected here and in the PU competition, clearly you are doing many things right with regards to brewing lagers. I currently mash in a picnic cooler where various rests at different temps are a bit harder to achieve, however, I'm in the process of building a brand new semi-Brutus brew structure and if adding a heatable mash tun is what I need to get the kind of results you are able to achieve, well so be it.

 

[pjj2ba]

I would like to get the OP's opinion on the value of mashing using various rests versus doing just a simple infusion and possibly a mashout. How much of a difference in the final product do you feel your approach gives you? Just an estimate like no difference, a little, a lot, massive, it's everything is what I am respectfully asking for. It is Friday afternoon, and I've had a couple of my own as I type this and I hope I don't sound too pushy with my request.

Is your mashing schedule dependent on the type of grains used?

Well obviously I think it makes a difference or i wouldn't do it :cross: That being said, The difference is not large, BUT I think it pushes it up a notch from being just a very good beer, to one that is fantastic.

I think the step mashes also help to improve the efficiency, although I couldn't really say what difference that makes in the end product.

I've recently switched to mostly pils as a base malt (as in no pale malt) so I always use these steps. I do not recommend a protein rest with pale malt. It never seemed to do for me what it does with pils malt. I also wonder about the protein rest when I have lots of vienna, or particularly munich malts. One of these day I'll grind them separate and wait to add the munich until after the p-rest (in a munich heavy recipe).

Your recipe calls for:
protein rest 20 min at 122 F
sacch rest for 30 min. at 147 F
Dextrin rest for 15 min. at 160 F
Mash out at 168 F, no rest

I ALWAYS do these rests BUT depending on style, I vary the times at each temp (except p-rest). If I want more body, I shorten the time at 147 and increase the time at 160. I like the control on the body that it gives me. For a pils, I can create a highly fermentable wort at 147 F, but by having a rest at 160, just before conversion is complete, I can get some larger dextrins that help to keep the beer from being too thin. Conversely, for a rich beer, the 147 rest gives me some easily fermented sugars which keeps the body from being too heavy. These times work for me, and keep in mind the ramp times can vary form one persons rig to another so the rest times may need to be shorter or longer depending on how fast you can ramp

 

[Crazybob]

I am thinking about trying this as my first lager, can you tell me what yeast you used and your ferment schedule? I was thinking 2-3 weeks around 50f then racking to 34-36f for 6-8 weeks. Is that appropriate?

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Edit: Sorry I only saw the recipe from my phone and it didn't include the yeast and fermenting information.

 

[XPLSV]

Moved this into the secondary today after a bit longer than planned primary period. Has already cleared very nicely and think the taste is spot on the style!

 

[altimate_one]

protein rest 20 min at 122 F
sacch rest for 30 min. at 147 F
Dextrin rest for 15 min. at 160 F
Mash out at 168 F, no rest

I am looking to brew this for a Labor day party. I know, that's a long ways away, but I'm hoping to win some admiration from the friends, and figured 7 months in the keg/bottle will only help.

I have a mash question. Do I need to do these steps in a kettle so I can raise/hold the temps with my flame? We usually use a cooler mash tun and I can't fathom an easy way to do this process in that without adding more water. This seems similar to the method I planned on using for a Light Lager when we make that. Am I thinking correctly?

And congrats on the Medal, I can only imagine how big my head will swell if that ever happens for our efforts.

 

[pjj2ba]

I am looking to brew this for a Labor day party. I know, that's a long ways away, but I'm hoping to win some admiration from the friends, and figured 7 months in the keg/bottle will only help.

I have a mash question. Do I need to do these steps in a kettle so I can raise/hold the temps with my flame? We usually use a cooler mash tun and I can't fathom an easy way to do this process in that without adding more water. This seems similar to the method I planned on using for a Light Lager when we make that. Am I thinking correctly?

And congrats on the Medal, I can only imagine how big my head will swell if that ever happens for our efforts.

I would wait to brew a lager for a Labor day party - if you can maintain fermentation temps in early Summer. If not, brew it now. While a good lager will keep for a while, like IPAs, they are best fresh. I target optimal drinking of a standard larger at 10 - 14 weeks - that is when it is the best (assuming everything went properly). they can still be good after that for a month or two, but they really are best fresh.

 

[Crazybob]

Altimate, I am planning on doing a decoction mash (which will be my first attempt at) for this over the weekend to achieve the temperatures. I also use a cooler and am still working out how to do the sparge as I typically batch sparge.

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[altimate_one]

This is what I had in mind, after watching some youtube. Maybe the group can critique my thoughts.

I planned on taking the initial water & grains up to the 122 F (in the cooler) and wait the 20 minutes, then I would drain 75% of the liquid, put it back in the kettle and raise the temp to achieve the 147 F and add it back to the cooler for the second rest. Repeating this process once more for the 160 F. I planned on draining that and doing a separate sparge for the last 168 F step.

If anyone wants to help improve on this step I am all ears.

 

[stpug]

This is what I had in mind, after watching some youtube. Maybe the group can critique my thoughts.

I planned on taking the initial water & grains up to the 122 F (in the cooler) and wait the 20 minutes, then I would drain 75% of the liquid, put it back in the kettle and raise the temp to achieve the 147 F and add it back to the cooler for the second rest. Repeating this process once more for the 160 F. I planned on draining that and doing a separate sparge for the last 168 F step.

If anyone wants to help improve on this step I am all ears.

EDIT: After a bit of reading, I would recommend against a dough in at the protein rest range when using well/highly modified malts. Instead, I would aim for a acid and/or beta-glucanase rest in the 95-113F range. If, on the other hand, you're using a moderate or low modified malt (you'll know if you are) then the protein rest is probably a logical dough in temp; although there are probably still reasons why you'd want to do a acid/glucanase rest prior.

From 122F to 147F: use a thick portion of the grist (mostly grain)
From 147F to 160F: use a thick portion of the grist (mostly grain)
From 160F to 168F: use a thin potion of the grist (mostly wort)

If your first step is mostly wort then you'll denature the enzymes contained within that wort, which will be a lot of them, and leave them unavailable for your beta rest. Do it again for the alpha rest and you may not have enough enzyme left to convert the remaining starches.

You can, and should, use a thin decoction for the last step since your goal at that point IS to denature the enzymes to stop any further conversion.

HTH!

 

[altimate_one]

stpug, Thanks for clearing that up, and for confirming that I wasn't completely nuts.

 

[murrahjm]

Brewed this a few weeks ago as my first pilsner, have it lagering now. This is the first time I've done something other than a single infusion mash, and have to say I really enjoyed the process. I ended up using my boil kettle to do the steps, with touches of flame and lots of stirring. Turned out to be a lot easier than I was anticipating, and had no trouble holding temp at the various rests. For the final rest I got it up to temp then transferred it to my mash cooler, so I could collect my runnings in the kettle. Of course all that stirring and what not blew my efficiency past the 70% I was expecting to close to 85%! Going to be a beast of a beer!

Anyway, I got to thinking how much more fun the mash was, and wondered if I could use this method for all my beers. Anyone have any general guidelines or recommended reading on what to consider with all the different rests and timings and what not? Lots more knobs than the single infusion. Hooray beer!

 

[pjj2ba]

I have now switched to only pilsner as a base malt (well vienna and munich too). No Pale malt. I have much better success manipulating pilsner malt over pale malt. I use step mashes for EVERY beer I do. I always use the same temperatures and just change the times. If I want something richer and full bodied, I'll take 10 min. OFF of my rest at 146F and add it to my 160 F rest. For a crisp pilsner/lager I'll do 30 min. at 146 F. If I'm doing an ale of some sort, I will shorten that time at 146 F,

Also note that I always do a 20 min. protein rest. If you skip that step, I'd add a little time to the other rests, as I do get some starch conversion during the p-rest stage

 

[murrahjm]

Good tips, thanks. Seems like everyone warns against using a p-rest on fully modified malts, I take it that's less of an issue with the pilsner malt?

 

[stpug]

Good tips, thanks. Seems like everyone warns against using a p-rest on fully modified malts, I take it that's less of an issue with the pilsner malt?

No, it's still very much an issue for all highly/well modified malts (I edited my post above to reflect this). I would only look at any kind of extended protein rest when using under-modified malts; however, I may use a short upper-temp protein rest for the purpose of increasing foam stability.

 

[pjj2ba]

Good tips, thanks. Seems like everyone warns against using a p-rest on fully modified malts, I take it that's less of an issue with the pilsner malt?

If you read the various books out there, they all pretty much say you do not need to do a protein rest with today's malts. The big issue with less modified malts is you are more likely to get chill haze. With today's malts they are modified more such that the risk of chill haze is greatly reduced, therefore you do not NEED to do a protein rest - with respect to preventing chill haze. Not needing to do one is different from you shouldn't do one. I still maintain that there is an advantage to a short rest to increase the amount of head and body promoting proteins. The difference is not big, but to ME it is worth it. Plus it is very easy for me to do on my rig.

The books also say too long a protein rest can result in a thin beer - which is very true. This often gets misinterpreted to ANY sort of protein rest is bad, which it not what the books say. This highlights the importance of protein in a beer and then gives us another component (proteins) to play with in creating a wort with the properties you desire, not just the carbohydrates

 

[XPLSV]

Took a 1st in the Pilsner category during the Denver First Round for the 2014 NHC with this recipe...many thanks! Pretty much stuck with the original recipe using a Pilsen water profile built up from distilled water. When I first tasted it following carbonation, I knew it was a great example of the style and pretty much knew it would become one I brewed regularly. Did not score nearly as well as I expected in a local contest back in February and I was greatly disappointed with the scoresheets and the comments. The NHC has been a vindication for me Still do not have the scoresheets from NHC, though. My second batch is currently lagering and I may submit the Final Round entries out of that batch, although I do still have two bottles left from the original batch.

 

[pjj2ba]

You'll be up against me in the finals. My CAP (slight tweaking) took 2nd in NYC - my Ger. pils took 1st.

 

[XPLSV]

Sounds like a wonderful 1-2 combination

 

[pjj2ba]

Sounds like a wonderful 1-2 combination

1 - 2 - 3! I have two in the pils finals

 

[vNmd]

A lot of posts on this site say they rack to secondary and a lot of people don't. Without getting into a war on should I or shouldn't I, what do people do in regards to this recipe?

 

[pjj2ba]

I keg, so I let it ferment 2 weeks (3 if it went slow for some reason) and then I keg it. I like to let it set for a day or so after that at fermentation temp and then move it to my lagering chamber. I'll lager for at least a week before hooking up the CO2 to force carb.

 

[vNmd]

Thanks. I made this recipe and left it in primary for over a month (still learning). Hopefully there won't be any ill effects. It smelled great when I transferred it. Its lagering now and I will start force carbing soon.

 

[HopRodGR]

I won't speak for everyone, but leaving a lager on the yeast for a month is perfectly fine. I routinely do that before transferring to a keg to finish lagering. As long as you are keeping control of your temps during primary fermentation (especially from pitching through the end of first week) you should be in good shape.


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[XPLSV]

I will put into a secondary following a diacetyl rest and a series of temperature lowing days. Time in the secondary can vary, mostly dependent upon what else may be in the pipeline...but I will rack again for further lagering, which could be done in a carboy or in a keg. All depends upon resources and patience. I occasionally filter if I'm wanting an absolutely clear beer...but often this is not necessary after extended periods at low lager temps. I did not filter my CAP NHC entry. This is also the first pilsner that I have not used decoction mashing.

 

[vNmd]

Thanks for the info. I am just getting into kegging so I am racking into kegs instead of carboys. I have not thought about secondary and then keg but sounds like it would be pretty clear. I like kegs because they are thinner than carboys and I can get more in my freezer for lagering. I just started force carbing last night and am looking forward to see how this recipe turns out.

 

[murrahjm]

Just kegged this after about 2 months of lagering, and WOW! Delicious beer with great body and head retention. In fact I'd say it's the best head I've ever had......in a beer. My efficiency snafu put it around 7% ABV, but you'd never know it from tasting it, until the second or third one.

Anyway, great recipe and I'm totally sold on the protein rest. Just did a blonde ale with 20 minute protein and 75 sach rests, can't wait to drink that one either.

 

[XPLSV]

For my last batch, I substituted the Wyeast equivalent yeast as I could not find the WL Bock yeast locally. Not the same. I did a split batch once before for an ale, using WL on one and Wyeast on the other primary and there was virtually no difference between the two. While there could have been other factors in my last batch...I won't do it again. Too much corn sweetness in the end product. Back to WL tonight!

 

[Abrayton]

Old thread, but figured I’d resurrect as I’m brewing this later in the week