2010 Belgian saison

[Mapleroots]

Let me know what you guys think...
Grain Bill
German pilsner-10lb.
Wheat malt-1lb.
Rye-2lb
German Munich-50lb.
Biscuit-.50lb.
Orange Blossom honey-1.5lb.
Hop Schedule
1oz. Kent Golding @ 60 min.
1oz. Saaz @ 15min.
Herbs
.25oz. peppercorn
.25oz. coriander
.25oz. fresh orange zest
.25 grains of paradise
Yeast
White Labs WLP568 Belgian Saison/Ale yeast
This is going to be my first saison brew, and I've read that this brew used to be done by adding cold water to the grain, drain, and then raising the temp of this milky turbid wort to your usual mashing temp. This is supposed to produce mashes that are partially ferment-able, In order to provide more body in the finished beer. Has anyone used this method in brewing? I'f so what were the result's.

 

[ReverseMonk]

I never really heard about that particular mash technique. You can easily get by with a single infusion around 145 to get a nice fermentable wort. In my experience, and from what I've read about the history of Saison, it is a style that should be somewhat low in alcohol (though modern versions are comparatively strong) and bone dry (very thirst quenching). I for one don't like Saison with extra body. I want them dry, crisp, and funky.

I would also drop the Munich, Biscuit, and honey. Just too much going on for a simple farmhouse beer. Hops look good to me.

The spice profile you have will overwhelm this beer. If you want all four spices, cut each addition in half (or even 1/4). Spicing should be very subtle.

Try to get your complexity from the yeast (not from lots of malts and spices) and don't be afraid to ferment above 80-85. I recommend keeping fermentation at a minimum of 80 to ensure your beer dries out enough.

 

[maskednegator]

I echo almost everything that ReverseMonk said, but I'd mash closer to 150. Saisons are dry beers, and that is an overwhelming amount of spices.

 

[starrfish]

.25 oz of peppercorn Is HUGE

I used 1/8th tsp crushed to a 1 gallon experimental batch (5/8 tsp to 5 gal) and pepper was prominent. too much so... pepper settled in back of throat. made a bit unpleasant finish.

 

[Barc]

I tend to agree with what has been said. Saisons are simple but have a complex taste. While everyone is different, I find the ones I prefer have an odd-ish / spicey character coming from the yeast rather than from the spices and malt. Personally, I'd lower the Pilsner to about 8lb, drop rye and biscuit altogether, up the wheat to 3lb, and I'd consider lowering the honey. Regarding the spices, I'd probably use about half of what you are detailing and drop the pepper (as the grains of paradise are very similar to peppercorns). Using a lower mash, 147 to 150, will give you a relatively dry final product even without the honey. With it, it will be very dry but still good, imo.

I will give you a little warning about your yeast choice. It likes to be HOT. I actually had this over 90 and it still wanted to be warmer. Beware of the fact that it will, most likely, get stuck and you'll have to shake the fermenter and get it hotter. I'd probably only start this in the middle of the summer with a long forecast of hot weather and a garage that was uncooled.

Other than that, good luck!

 

[Mapleroots]

Thanks to all, this is why I love this site.
2010 Saison Edit 6.5 gal.
Grain Bill
10 lb German Pilsner
2lb Wheat
2lb Rye
1.5lb orange blossom honey
Hops
1oz. Kent Golding
1oz. Saaz
Herbs
.25oz orange zest
.25oz grains of paradise
Yeast
White Labs WLP568 Belgian Saison/Ale
I still might go with the cold mash, and then the regular mash at 150*. I batch sparge with 1.25qt. per lb, but was thinking of bumping this up to 1.30qt.
I'm using the honey to dry this brew out a little and boost up the ABV. I like my grain bill with the rye and wheat, but decided to drop the Munich & Biscuit. as for the herbs, I tend to over think the need for the flavors that I want. I think that after the research and input from everyone that this recipe edit is going to give me what I want in the final product. My only question is with my yeast selection. I would love to hear back from anyone else who has used this yeast. What were the results? as for fermenting, I'm thinking this will be a may brew. Out here in Indiana it should be plenty warm enough to ferment in my garage. Thanks again for all the help in dialing this brew in. I'll let you know how this one comes out.
Peace from Zion Brewing:fro:

 

[maskednegator]

.25 oz of grains of paradise is also way too much. Grains of paradise are very similar to peppercorns, hippy food co-ops will sell them right next to each other.

 

[Barc]

I'll restate what I already said about the yeast and tell you that it likes to be fermented HOT. Unless you can keep it at least in the mid-80s, don't expect a lot from it. I fermented my last one with it in late July into early August and had to constantly fiddle with it. I was fortunate in that it only got stuck once but even when it went well it fermented slowly, even at 90+. Lastly, I was disappointed with the lack of flavor the yeast gave it. While it did give it some character, it wasn't as much as most Belgian yeasts I've used. I was shocked by this considering how hot it fermented.

 

[Mapleroots]

What is your favorite saison yeast?

 

[Barc]

What is your favorite saison yeast?

Personally, I prefer a nice Belgian yeast with PLENTY of character and a low FG (think Delirium Tremens or possibly a Trappist) allowed to take it down to its FG then followed up with a Brett or something earthy. I think that's pretty much what says "Franco-Belge Farmhouse" to me.

Don't get me wrong, 565 or 568 (essentially the same "character" strain with 565 having only a single yeast strain and 568 having a more "active" strain to help keep fermentation from stalling if memory serves) will give you a good beer. It will dry a beer out just fine and many people will prefer it to something with a little "funk" since it will showcase the spice additions more readily but, for my money, give me something that showcases the yeast and fermentation rather than the spices (that's what Winter beers are for, right?!).

 

[maskednegator]

565 is actually a yeast that provides the spiciness, its function is not to showcase additional spice additions.

 

[Barc]

565 is actually a yeast that provides the spiciness, its function is not to showcase additional spice additions.

While I agree with that, I find it to be much more subtle than a lot of other Belgian strains.

 

[Houblon]

Use wyeast 3711 and cut your spices in half.

 

[Mapleroots]

I'll take this into consideration but still going to make this one my own.

 

[Mapleroots]

What If I washed my wyeast Trappist ale yeast and pitch that tor this saison? would this work well with this style? I just brewed a double with it.

 

[ChshreCat]

I had plenty of peppery flavor in my saison and I didn't use any peppercorns or other spices at all.

I'd recommend Wyeast 3711 as a great saison yeast. In my case, went from 1.067 down to 1.000. Doesn't have the faltering issues some of the others do. Chews right through the sugars with no problems at all and tastes wonderful.

 

[Barc]

What If I washed my wyeast Trappist ale yeast and pitch that tor this saison? would this work well with this style? I just brewed a double with it.

It should be OK. I think that's 3787, right? From memory, it will pull the gravity on down. Plus, it has good character. It might not dry it out as much as others, however, so you may want to think about that when you brew (i.e. make sure you mash low to get a very fermentable wort and keep the boil time to a minimum to reduce caramelization).

 

[maskednegator]

I agree, I think that will work pretty well (especially with judicious substitutions of sugar). Ommegang uses their trappist style yeasts for their saison, and uses a very subtle addition of spices to get the character you'd expect from a saison yeast.

 

[EvilGnome6]

I had plenty of peppery flavor in my saison and I didn't use any peppercorns or other spices at all.

I'd recommend Wyeast 3711 as a great saison yeast. In my case, went from 1.067 down to 1.000. Doesn't have the faltering issues some of the others do. Chews right through the sugars with no problems at all and tastes wonderful.

Seconded. Wyeast 3711 is a fantastic saison yeast. It attenuates very dry with zero fuss and adds a lot of spiciness without the need for actual spices.

 

[phished880]

Grains of paradise are very similar to peppercorns, hippy food co-ops will sell them right next to each other.

damn hippies!

 

[mattlins]

I'll restate what I already said about the yeast and tell you that it likes to be fermented HOT. Unless you can keep it at least in the mid-80s, don't expect a lot from it. I fermented my last one with it in late July into early August and had to constantly fiddle with it. I was fortunate in that it only got stuck once but even when it went well it fermented slowly, even at 90+. Lastly, I was disappointed with the lack of flavor the yeast gave it. While it did give it some character, it wasn't as much as most Belgian yeasts I've used. I was shocked by this considering how hot it fermented.

(sorry if I'm derailing this thread)

Hmm...I'm a newbie and this comment made me pretty nervous. I just brewed this from Austin Homebrew Supply:

http://www.austinhomebrew.com/produ...d=397&osCsid=274569d018cdf4bf30263db9e18201f4

So, it has the same yeast as the OP was intending on using. It's spring here (WI) and it's been around 67-70 on the surface of the fermenter. I used 2 vials (I haven't used a starter yet). It went pretty strong for 48-60 hours. Now it's just bubbling here and there. Think it's stuck?

From reading here, my guess is everyone would recommend taking a hydrometer reading. Should I do that or just let it sit for a bit?

Right now it has a pretty sour smell coming from the airlock, but everything looks normal (glass carboy).

 

[ChshreCat]

Unless you're going nuts and doing them every day, taking a hydrometer reading is never a bad idea if you have any questions about how your beer is coming along. Go for it!

 

[mattlins]

Unless you're going nuts and doing them every day, taking a hydrometer reading is never a bad idea if you have any questions about how your beer is coming along. Go for it!

Ok, just took a reading. I'm at 1.022 after 4 days since pitching. Starting gravity was supposed to be 1.068. Although, I only got 1.035, I think because it wasn't mixed. I heard it's hard to be off on extract, so I assume it was right around 1.068 starting out. FG is supposed to be 1.013.

So, like I said, only a bubble every minute or so. What should I do? Wait it out?

 

[ChshreCat]

I'd warm that puppy up a bit. Gradually ramp it up about 10 degrees and see if that helps it keep going.

 

[mattlins]

I'd warm that puppy up a bit. Gradually ramp it up about 10 degrees and see if that helps it keep going.

That could be kind of hard to do in these parts. Guess I'll have to look into a space heater.

 

[Barc]

That could be kind of hard to do in these parts. Guess I'll have to look into a space heater.

If you have a heating pad, you can tape it to the fermenter and wrap a coat around all of it to keep the heat in (or a blanket but I think a coat looks funnier). That's a cheap way to keep it warm. It may not be pretty but it is effective (and cheaper than running a space heater, usually).

 

[ChshreCat]

Some folks on here have had good luck using an aquarium heater. You put the fermenter in a cooler or some other container full of water, put the aquarium heater in the water and it keeps the fermenter warm.

 

[maskednegator]

damn hippies!

The place closest to me also sells raw maple syrup and local honey by the oz, as well as flaked spelt and all sorts of crazy fermentable stuff.

Some folks on here have had good luck using an aquarium heater. You put the fermenter in a cooler or some other container full of water, put the aquarium heater in the water and it keeps the fermenter warm.

This is what I do. A small aquarium heater from eBay is super cheap. Use hot water from your tap to start, otherwise the ramp from cold tap to 90 degrees takes weeks.

 

[mattlins]

Thanks guys, but I might just be lucky. It's getting up to 80 in Wisconsin today. I think that should help out. If anything, I'll just let it sit a while longer into the warmer months.

 

[Mapleroots]

with all the input, this is what I'm ending up brewing for this saison
10LB German pale
2LB unmalted Wheat
10oz Belgian biscuit
6 oz honey malt
Hops 1oz kent golding 60 min.; 1/2 oz fuggle 15min. 1/2 oz fuggle 15min.
wyeast Saison WPL3711
1.5 lb orange blossom honey 5 days after primary fermentation
fermenting around 80*-85*f
protein rest 122*f 30 min.
mash in temp 150*f

 

[Mapleroots]

I brewed this recipe above and added .25oz grains of paradise along with the orange blossom honey to the secondary. fermentation started back up and has been going for 10 days strong;(slowing down now). I'm going to bottle this one up at the end of the week. I'll let you know how this one comes out