2000w not enough for 4G, other ideas?

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bignick270

bignick270

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Today was my first test boil on my electric BIAB system in a 8G kettle. I do 4G boils for a 3G batch into the fermenter. I chose to do a 2000W element in the kettle thinking it would be fine for my batch size (and I only have 120V/20A circuit).

During my test boil today I was only able to hit a max of 205F with my PID set to manual and 100%. The water was boiling but it was a light boil.

I do not think I have enough water level for a straight heat stick but I might be able to use a hot rod from brewhardware.com with a 1500w element on a second circuit but I can not invest in that at the moment.

It is a little disappointing because it seemed like the water heated up to around 200F quickly but it needs a little help. Do you think a 1000w to 1200w hotplate/single electric burner under the kettle would help get it up to 210 or 212?
 
Evaporation will absorb heat, and it is easier in the wide and shallow geometry, which provides more surface for that to happen.
A simple solution will be using cover and leave a gap. You can adjust the gap to get best result.

Read the description of this item, you will know what I am talking about.
https://www.morebeer.com/products/copper-hood-50l-braumeister.html

BTW, calibrate your thermometer.
 
Thanks for the feedback!

If a flat bottomed kettle, probably so.
Click to expand...
It is a fairly flat bottom, can't say that I have looked at how flat it is. I am in a utility room off of a garage so I am not considering propane.

Evaporation will absorb heat, and it is easier in the wide and shallow geometry, which provides more surface for that to happen.
A simple solution will be using cover and leave a gap. You can adjust the gap to get best result.
Click to expand...
So you saying to place a lid on the kettle that has a large enough opening to vent. DMS worries?

BTW, calibrate your thermometer.
Click to expand...
Good idea. I did not do this. Maybe there is a chance I was closer to 212F than 205F. Still not a decent boil though.

2kw should be plenty for 4G. Is your element 2kw at 120V or 240v? I only need 1.5kw on my induction cooker to maintain a nice roll on 4G.
Click to expand...
It is 2kw at 120V
 
Do you check the hood of braumeister? You can also check the lid of grainfather.
There is no DMS issue in both systems.
FYI, I am an ex-owner of Grainfather, and I know the difference of using lid.
 
Boiling may not be 212 depending on your elevation and current climatic conditions. Boiling for me is 209/210.
Also, you may need to reset your boil expectations. It seems like most people like to crank a gas burner for a huge volcanic boil, because you can.
All you need is a gentle rolling boil.
 
The dimensions of the kettle play a big part too. Taller narrow kettles are a lot more efficient with less heat loss out the top this is why the grain father and robobrew and the like use them.
 
It can't hurt to verify that the system is working correctly. Maybe the element or driver is weak. It's unlikely but it's easy to check with this spreadsheet.

http://gnipsel.com/beer/software/calculators/electric-heat.xls

Check the water temperature, crank the element to 100%, let the temperature increase 5-10 degrees, and see if the time it takes to rise is close to the spreadsheet's prediction. If not, there could be a hardware fault.

You can probably use the spreadsheet in Google Sheets or LibreOffice if you don't have Excel.
 
People in the forum seem to believe that vigor boiling is necessary.
However, I found some interesting information from Picobrew. I am not sure if what they claim is true, but I didn't find review against it. Anybody find some?

https://www.picobrew.com/About/FAQ_Zymatic.cshtml
"
The Zymatic® typically maintains a temperature just below boil. This near boil occurs in the heat exchanger, adjunct compartments and keg. Through testing we have found that there is nothing magical about boiling - it's just traditional since beer was created a long time before thermometers and process controls. In a conventional homebrew system, boiling is important since the temperature control is not as precise - keeping the entire batch at 207° steadily for an hour is impossible for most home brew systems. Also in home brew systems, a vigorous boil ensures mixing of the wort. In the Zymatic®, this mixing is done by circulating the wort. We have run extensive testing for hops extraction, off flavors and clarity, and have found no detraction from having a “boil” temperature slightly less than boil.
"
 
What are the dimensions of your kettle and the construction? I think a narrower kettle and none triply bottom helps with electric brewing.

If it is sort of wide that can effect how well the boil looks/works. I was doing 5 gal batches(7gals+) in my 15gal tall boy(magic 1.2:1 ratio) with two 1500W hotrods and needed to add insulation to get a decent looking boil. I switched to a bayou classic 11gal kettle and don't need insulation and can drop down to 75% power(2250W) and still get a decent looking boil.

When I heat water in my 8gal wide kettle with a single 1500W element there is a 5-10 degree temp between the outside edge vs the center of the kettle where the element is located.

If you do a test boil with a little pinch of hops or crushed grain in the water you can get a visual of how well the water circulates
 
I know it is not in your budget at present, but let me offer my two cents anyway. My kettle is six gallon and I try to get as close as I can to five gallons at the boil. A single element leads to a pretty anemic boil with 120V in the kitchen. I ordered a hot rod with a really long cable to enable plugging it into a different room on a different circuit. The hot rod is clearly made for a larger kettle, and the weight of the extension cord wants to tip it over until I hook the cable over a cabinet knob or two.

With both elements at full strength, the boil is actually too vigorous, so once it gets going, I dial back the in-kettle element. If and when your budget permits, I'd recommend you try the same thing.
 
Update...

Went ahead with my first batch on the system. I left the lid partially on and was able to get closer to a full boil.

Btw i do have 2 layers of insulation on it.

Now my next problem is why my 1.062 recipe came out at 1.090? Whoops.
 
Man there's somethng else going on here....you sure your PID isn't shutting off at too low of a temp once it's reached?
 
2KW should be enough for a 4G boil. Are you sure you're getting 2kW into the element?

There is no need to make the boil seem like a very vigorous boil, some movement just above a nice simmer is enough. If you can target at least 8% evaporation you have a nice boil unless your kettle is extremely wide.
 
Just brewed a batch last night on the 1600W Mash and Boil and had 4gal on a solid rolling boil. I've done 6.25g boils as well, you've def got enough power. I hit boil at about 197F
 
I've seen several boils in cold garages, no insulation on the kettle with a little less than 2000w. You're missing something. I think Weezy was on to something. A 240v heater doesn't put out full power with 120v. Double check you have the right element. Maybe you were sold the wrong one?
 
So first off the crazy OG numbers I tracked down to improper BIAB absorption settings in BeerSmith 2 which gave me not enough starting water. It must of been something i changed a while back accidentally. I thought my mash was a little thick at the time.

So for my setup:
Double roll insulation on kettle
For boiling, I am running in manual mode on PID (Auberins) at 100%.
No extension cord
120V into control panel, all 12 gauge wire. Short power cable to outlet and short dedicated circuit run to the panel.
Maybe 6ft or less power cable from control panel to element, 12AWG.
I have a current sensor in my panel on the element power and it is around 16.8A when running. According to my ohm's law knowledge that checks out for a 2000w element ( 2000 / 16.8 = 119V ).
Now one thing I been thinking about is my temp sensor is like 2.5" long and probably should be a little closer to the element so it may be a few degrees off, so it maybe closer to 210ish. When I mash I recirculate so hopefully that would help to reduce the thermal difference (my pickup is near the probe).

Next brew, I will try to read the temperature near the element with an instant-read thermometer.
 
Smellyglove said:
Is the element rated 2000W @ 120V or 240V?

If it's @240V, then you are giving it 1000W.
Click to expand...

Small correction: If it's rated 2000W @ 240V, you're giving it 500W @ 120V. Edit: However, the Amps you are drawing seem exactly right for 2000W @ 120V, so that's probably not the problem.
 
shoo said:
Small correction: If it's rated 2000W @ 240V, you're giving it 500W @ 120V. Edit: However, the Amps you are drawing seem exactly right for 2000W @ 120V, so that's probably not the problem.
Click to expand...

I edited my post after reading the one I quoted..

Can you pls show me why 500W and not 1000W like I wrote before my edit?
 
Smellyglove said:
I edited my post after reading the one I quoted..

Can you pls show me why 500W and not 1000W like I wrote before my edit?
Click to expand...

Power = Voltage * Current
Current = Voltage / Resistance
Substituting in, Power = Voltage^2 / Resistance

Resistance is constant, so if you reduce voltage by a factor of 1/2, you reduce power by a factor of (1/2)^2, or 1/4. So running an element which uses 2000W @ 240V will use 1/4 of that (500W) @ 120V

Edit: The thing that confuses most people here is that current isn't constant when you change voltage, as it ALSO changes. The only thing that stays constant is the resistance, since it's the same resistor (i.e. the element) regardless of how you power it.
 
alphaomega said:
I wouldn't worry about DMS. I will evaporate, even with a lid.
Click to expand...

Not true. Trapping evaporation with a lid, the DMS will condense on the lid and drop right back into the wort.

Do not boil with the lid on. I can see getting up to boil temperature with a lid but I say again...DO NOT boil with the lid on.
 
@LarMoeCur: That is speculative at best. Yes, there will be some condensation, but not enough that it will matter. Most of the steam *will* escape.
 
bignick270 said:
Today was my first test boil on my electric BIAB system in a 8G kettle. I do 4G boils for a 3G batch into the fermenter. I chose to do a 2000W element in the kettle thinking it would be fine for my batch size (and I only have 120V/20A circuit).

During my test boil today I was only able to hit a max of 205F with my PID set to manual and 100%. The water was boiling but it was a light boil.

I do not think I have enough water level for a straight heat stick but I might be able to use a hot rod from brewhardware.com with a 1500w element on a second circuit but I can not invest in that at the moment.

It is a little disappointing because it seemed like the water heated up to around 200F quickly but it needs a little help. Do you think a 1000w to 1200w hotplate/single electric burner under the kettle would help get it up to 210 or 212?
Click to expand...
you need to check the element with an ohmeter.. just because its advertised and sold as 2000w doesnt mean it really is... It just means it was over 1500w so they couldnt sell it as that.

I had a 4500w element that was actually only 4050 watts..

you can also try leaving the lid partially on like texaswine does..
 
LarMoeCur said:
Not true. Trapping evaporation with a lid, the DMS will condense on the lid and drop right back into the wort.

Do not boil with the lid on. I can see getting up to boil temperature with a lid but I say again...DO NOT boil with the lid on.
Click to expand...

all the larger microbrewing brewing systems I'm looking at all boil with a lid and a condenstate stack or pipe... just saying..
 
Can you add another 2000w element and run it off a different circuit in the house?

I have a 2000w element in my 2.5G kettle, it works well but I wouldn't want to try to boil too much more volume with it.
 
augiedoggy said:
all the larger microbrewing brewing systems I'm looking at all boil with a lid and a condenstate stack or pipe... just saying..
Click to expand...

I'll bet that condensate stack or pipe has a lip along the bottom to collect the condensate not allowing it to return to the wort.

Every book written about brewing in the last 100 years recommends boiling with the lid off. I've heard almost all of the top homebrewing minds in the industry recommend against covering the boil.

It may or may not result in higher amounts if DMS. Trust me...I've read the test and studies. You are boiling to drive off unwanted compounds why leave any avenue for these impurities to return.

To me it's just not a good practice and if the OP wasn't having boil issues we would not have recommended covering the boil. A weak boil is probably more likely to lead to DMS. Covering the kettle to achieve a weak boil is not a fix to better beer.

I'll concede that I maybe incorrect because we are way off topic :off:
 
LarMoeCur said:
To me it's just not a good practice and if the OP wasn't having boil issues we would not have recommended covering the boil. A weak boil is probably more likely to lead to DMS. Covering the kettle to achieve a weak boil is not a fix to better beer.
Click to expand...

Sometimes these off topic discussions are the most fun.

I can boil my wort no problem with the lid off. I choose not to because in my home brewery a partially covered boil kettle actually is best practice. It allows for a reasonable level of agitation from the boil at a lower power setting of my elements, ensuring proper hop utilization, all while helping to control boil off and minimizing thermal stress on the wort. You'll find no erupting wort volcanoes in my BK, just a nice simmer. So yes, I cover to achieve a weak (but sufficient) boil, on purpose.

I'd actually recommend that everyone at least give it a try, especially on their lighter colored beers. Dial the power back (gas or electric) and try to control that boil off.
 
What @TexasWine said. There are obvious benefits to boil with lid on. I'd like to add to the list; no insects/airborne particles landing in the wort.
Of course larger breweries trap the condensate. Because they can. The condensate is not desirable, I'll agree to that. BUT the main reasons for DMS in homebrew as I understand it, is short/insufficient boil and/or slow cooling of the wort post boil.
I'm pretty convinced that the benefits of boiling with lid on outweigh the drawbacks (if any).
 
@alphaomega - if the wort is boiling it has a protective layer of steam rolling over the top. Pushing out of the kettle not in. Only a very heavy particle would be able to penetrate the steam and land in the wort. I don't brew under a tree and I would wager that most Homebrewers don't either. If a dust particle happens to fly through 212F degree steam and then land in 212F wort...it's been neutralized...and will have zero affect on the beer. And even if a bug lands in the boiling wort it will not affect the beer. It's boiling and breaking down proteins bug guts is just another protein at that point and can be easily fished out with a spoon. I would only be worried at temps below 160F and at that point completely covering is fine.

I can understand a partially covered pot but not a fully covered. To me when I read "lid on" that is a fully covered kettle. Now "lid 1/3 on" or "1/2 on" reads partially covered kettle. We maybe in agreement but the typed words have once again limited the discussion.

Every How to book I've read has a similar statement. Every beginners pod cast I've listen to warns against "fully" covered boils. Again boils down to best practices...fully covering boils is not a best practice.

John Palmer- How to Brew.
"Once you achieve a boil, only partially cover the pot, if at all. Why? Because in wort there are sulfur compounds that evolve and boil off. If they aren't removed during the boil, the can form dimethyl sulfide which contributes a cooked cabbage or corn-like flavor to the beer. If the cover is left on the pot, or left on such that the condensate from the lid can drip back in, then these flavors will have a much greater chance of showing up in the finished beer."
 
@LarMoeCur: I'm not trying to pick a fight or anything here, it is fine if you disagree (or partially agree, or whatever), I'm just arguing my position here.

Insects and dust won't ruin the beer, I agree. But I'd still prefer to have as little possible of 'em. It's not like they're positives either.

Lid on, or lid partially on that is just semantics to me. Even with the lid fully on, steam *will* escape, or you've built yourself a bomb.

And yes. I assure you, I'm very much aware of the old 'brewing truths'. I've also believed them blindly. But I also know, that a lot of ppl boil, lid on, without issues. I read on another forum, a guy who tried to force DMS through dripback. He installed his immersion chiller just below the lid, and blasted cold water through it during the boil, trying to knock back as much steam as he could. He couldn't detect DMS in the finished beer as I recall.
Edit: To be perfectly clear here, he probably still had significant boil off.

I've been trying to find that thread later on, but I guess my google-fu is not strong enough.
Sure, that is not like that is hard science or anything, but from what I can tell, there really isn't much evidence, that on a home brewing scale, boiling with lid on, really has any correlation with DMS.

Now, I'm not saying DMS is bogus. It is real. I just don't think that boiling with lid on is a concern. I'm not even saying that boiling with lid on is better. I'm saying it certainly has it pros though, but do what you feel comfortable with, I'm not trying to make you change your process. It would be totally cool though, if maybe you could at least consider that covered boil equals DMS, might not be an absolute truth...
 
@Alphaomega: No worries. We are definitely not fighting. We are debating a point of view.

I know I'm small in the big realm of the home brewing world but I'm always trying to improve my beers. The biggest names in the home brewing world. The guys that have 20 beers in the second round of the Nationals say don't boil with the lid on. That's good enough for me. I've won a club round or two so who am I to argue with world class brewers. I'm quite ok with you boiling with your lid on. I just won't do it. Or will I recommend to any other brewer to do it. I think fixing the original post power issues would be a better than telling him to put a lid on the boil. Lacking the BTUs to boil sufficiently is a real problem and putting the band aid fix of putting a lid on the kettle is not the answer.
 

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