200 mg/l sodium in city water

[bwible]

Palmer says (in the original "How To Brew" anyway) 0-150 ppm. But I think the answer depends on what you're brewing and your personal preferences.

For example, I'll C&P from an old post...

---------------------------
Several years ago, I (with a small group) did a taste test, adding salt to a smaller (not imperial) stout, namely Young's Double Chocolate stout. Maybe the notes will help. (The reference to a chocolate covered pretzel was because I was contemplating just such a recipe at the time.)
-------------------

Added NaCl to cold (about 45F) samples of stout to get Na at four concentrations...

119 ppm Na: Slightly more intense chocolate/malt flavor as compared with control (estimated at 20 ppm IIRC), but not identifiably salty.

237 ppm Na: Even more intense flavor, just slightly subjectively salty. But I'm not completely sure I would have said salty if I didn't know what the test was about.

356 ppm Na: Clearly has a salty flavor component now, but not overwhelming by any stretch

475 ppm Na: More salty, but still not overwhelming or unpleasant at all. Complements the chocolate nicely, but not as salty as an actual chocolate covered pretzel.
--------------------------------------

But is adding salt to a finished beer the same as starting with a high level of sodium and carrying it through the mash, boil with hops, and fermentation with possible effects on yeast into the finished beer?

 

[Brewdog80]

The one HUMONGOUS thing that EVERYONE here has MISSED from the Original Poster is that NOT ONLY does he have 200mg of sodium coming into his house, but he has a water softener. What does a water softener use and ADD to the water? SALT, Sodium Chloride. In a big way. It totally makes the original water profile coming into his system irrelevant.
I'm not really one to usually suggest a RO, but the OP should either get his brew water prior to his softener, eliminate the softener, or get an RO....

 

[cire]

Not everyone.

So we have a supply of 31 ppm Ca, 23 Mg, 200 Na, 311 SO4, 170 Chloride with alkalinity as 63 ppm as bicarbonate then passed through a water softener, which should all but eliminate the calcium and magnesium to boost the sodium to near 280 ppm. That won't make a good beer without significant quantities of other flavors present. Little chance to make a delicate beer.

 

[VikeMan]

But is adding salt to a finished beer the same as starting with a high level of sodium and carrying it through the mash, boil with hops, and fermentation with possible effects on yeast into the finished beer?

Good question. I can add that the yeast for my pastry stouts, WLP001, see ~100 ppm sodium. If it's affecting the yeast negatively, I can't tell. I ferment them at 61F and am getting the attenuation I'm expecting, given the grain bill, mash temp, mash length, and yeast strain.

 

[VikeMan]

The one HUMONGOUS thing that EVERYONE here has MISSED from the Original Poster is that NOT ONLY does he have 200mg of sodium coming into his house, but he has a water softener. What does a water softener use and ADD to the water? SALT, Sodium Chloride. In a big way. It totally makes the original water profile coming into his system irrelevant.
I'm not really one to usually suggest a RO, but the OP should either get his brew water prior to his softener, eliminate the softener, or get an RO....

Could you please speak up?

 

[mabrungard]

The World Health Organization (WHO) at one time set the limit for sodium in potable water at 250 ppm. That was strictly based on aesthetic concerns (it tends to 'taste' salty above that level). The water in my city comes out of the tap right around that limit and I don't mind it for drinking. But I wouldn't use it for brewing! It would be OK to brew some beers with if the city didn't perform partial ion-exchange softening on it. But they need to soften or their pipes would be clogged shut with lime scale. So, it is what it is.

For the OP, accept the fact that you'll need to employ another source for brewing. RO is a good option. Do feed it with the softened water for your house softener and the membrane will last a good long time.

 

[Brewdog80]

Could you please speak up?

I made my point, all the GUESSES that you guys make about the OP water is irrelevant. adding salt to finished beer? Really? Guesses on the sodium and chloride levels along with other minerals based on nothing. You guys know nothing about how well or not his softener works treating the water. actually pretty funny. Get the water pre softener, or RO. Your beer will taste like beer.

 

[Silver_Is_Money]

As a child I watched my Dad and others sprinkle salt into their beer. I tried it once a few years ago on one of my Bohemian Pilsner recipes, drinking a glass with a bit of salt added alongside a control with no added salt. The hops and malt were muted via the salt and it tasted dull and uninteresting. I've never tried it since then.

But I have come across some peer reviewed Brewing Science Of Yore (circa 1950's) literature that proclaimed salt to be a net positive at about 50 ppm in the general likes of Pilsner Lagers, and 100 ppm in darker beers.

What I shook into a glass of beer when it dulled it was likely well more than 50 ppm.

 

[Buckeye_Hydro]

Without any doubt, feed the RO softened water. Hard water will scale an RO membrane.

And the RO will remove the sodium.

 

[A1sportsdad]

I always use distilled and build the profile I want. If you have an RO system, that’s great, but I’ll spend the 0.89 per gallon for distilled. I don’t trust my water always be consistent and I know at times I can smell an odor I associate with algae blooms, so I prefer using a consistent blank canvas and building it up to what I want for the specific brew.

 

[moinkyschmoink]

Thanks everyone for the replies!! There is some great info here.
I'm trying to figure out what I need whole house RO at this point. I'm considering something small for brewing in the meantime if this gets as pricey as think it might. Looks like we will need something on the commercial scale or and/or a pressurized tank. I have a lot of research to do as far as keeping the water pressure up in the house, I didn't think about the pressure drop issue with the idea of a an inline system and it may get complicated.
Gotta say, this was a big eye opener. Always get a water report before you move. Brewer or not. It's crazy how much salt we would've drank without asking for a report.

I use 25-35 gallons of water per batch now so buying a bunch of water at the store is out.
With a cheaper ro system and rebuilding water how do you guys estimate the remaining sodium or other minerals in the water so you don't over do it? Any recomendations for something I can run off of a garden hose? I have the rv hoses with inline carbon filters I would run to the ro.

Thanks again everyone!

 

[Silver_Is_Money]

A first guess at your water post the addition of a softener followed by an RO unit.
Ca = 0 ppm
Mg = 0 ppm
Na = 15 ppm
Cl = 10 ppm
SO4 = 15.5 ppm
Alkalinity = 2.2 ppm

 

[Buckeye_Hydro]

Thanks everyone for the replies!! There is some great info here.
I'm trying to figure out what I need whole house RO at this point. I'm considering something small for brewing in the meantime if this gets as pricey as think it might. Looks like we will need something on the commercial scale or and/or a pressurized tank. I have a lot of research to do as far as keeping the water pressure up in the house, I didn't think about the pressure drop issue with the idea of a an inline system and it may get complicated.
Gotta say, this was a big eye opener. Always get a water report before you move. Brewer or not. It's crazy how much salt we would've drank without asking for a report.

I use 25-35 gallons of water per batch now so buying a bunch of water at the store is out.
With a cheaper ro system and rebuilding water how do you guys estimate the remaining sodium or other minerals in the water so you don't over do it? Any recomendations for something I can run off of a garden hose? I have the rv hoses with inline carbon filters I would run to the ro.

Thanks again everyone!

You can go with a small/low capacity point-of-use RO, or if you want to go whole house, then we typically spec appropriate pretreatment (often a carbon tank and a softener), followed by an RO that feeds an atmospheric (unpressurized) tank. Often we put a UV light on a recirculation loop on that tank. The tank gravity drains to a repressurization pump with a built in pressure switch - this sends water out to the rest of the house. Depending upon the situation, you may also need a remineralization device before the water goes out to the house.

Russ