20 lb of sugar and a jar of yeast nutrient

[Jayjay1976]

I also made a batch of #5, the color was spot on when tested on foil but it looked totally black in the jar. I added a pound of it to a dubbel a week into primary fermentation; the resulting beer has a wonderful aroma of raisins and hazelnuts and the distinctive flavors of luxardo cherries and toffee without even a hint of burnt sugar bitterness. The residual sweetness was a big concern for me, I didn't want to end up with a sugary sweet mess but the way it turned out seems perfect to my palate. I have put up about two dozen bottles to age.

This weekend I'm cooking up a double batch of #5 and canning it for use in the near future, it's truly wonderful stuff.

 

[Travis K. Jansen]

I wish mine came out that black.

 

[Squad1Guy]

I also made a batch of #5, the color was spot on when tested on foil but it looked totally black in the jar. I added a pound of it to a dubbel a week into primary fermentation; the resulting beer has a wonderful aroma of raisins and hazelnuts and the distinctive flavors of luxardo cherries and toffee without even a hint of burnt sugar bitterness. The residual sweetness was a big concern for me, I didn't want to end up with a sugary sweet mess but the way it turned out seems perfect to my palate. I have put up about two dozen bottles to age.

This weekend I'm cooking up a double batch of #5 and canning it for use in the near future, it's truly wonderful stuff.

How did you measure your 1# of syrup? I made about 2# but really only need about .5# for my current recipe. Just weigh out 0.5# of the syrup and add it? (Seems like an easy question, but my mind just isn't getting it.)

 

[Jayjay1976]

How did you measure your 1# of syrup? I made about 2# but really only need about .5# for my current recipe. Just weigh out 0.5# of the syrup and add it? (Seems like an easy question, but my mind just isn't getting it.)

Yeah i just poured it into a bowl that was sitting on a digital scale and then dunked the whole thing in the hot wort to dissolve all of it out of the bowl.

 

[Squad1Guy]

Yeah i just poured it into a bowl that was sitting on a digital scale and then dunked the whole thing in the hot wort to dissolve all of it out of the bowl.

Great! Thanks.

 

[FatDragon]

I wanted to report back as well. I used the recipe for the sugar #5 and came up what I thought was some really dark candi sugar and it had a lot of great dark fruit flavor that we talk about with this stuff. I brewed it up into a Westy 12 clone, but unfortunately, it seems to have lightened up in the fermenter and several samples have shown that it did not impart enough of the dark fruit flavors we desire for this. In the end, it'll result in a great Triple, but for me, this was a failed experiment leading me to believe that when I need that flavor profile or something that dark, I'm better off purchasing D-180. So sad, I had high hopes since the rocks came out really dark and tasty.

Interesting. About 15 months ago I made a quad/BDSA (based on the traditional Westy 12 clone) with the #5, a long boil, and some wort reduction for added complexity, and it fell short of the mark as well. It's too strong and complex to be a dubbel, too dark and the wrong flavor profile to be a tripel, but it doesn't have the chewy caramels of a proper quad. Lots of cherry and other stone fruit flavors (I named it Cherry Juice Quad), but not enough backbone. Body and backbone of a tripel, stone fruit flavors of a quad. I might have to rename it: Cherry Juice Belgian 3.5.

Whenever I've brought up this sugar with people who know about these things, the consensus has been that it's a very different animal from Belgian candi. I don't know enough myself or remember enough from those conversations to say why that is or what we should be doing differently, but the point is that I'm pretty sure you're right: we're not coming anywhere close to a D-180 with this method. I'm not sure we're even reaching D-90 levels of complexity really. I like this stuff, but there's a limit to what we can do with this method.

 

[Travis K. Jansen]

Agreed. Just need to pony up the cash for d180 I guess.

Funny, the way you describe yours is almost exactly what mine is like. A bit if a Belgian purgatory, if you will. Oh well!

 

[Jayjay1976]

What the Belgians are doing on a commercial scale CAN'T be magic. We're just missing a bit of key info to unlock their process. I'm not experienced enough to comment on the differences, but for chrissakes, it's a matter of sugar + heat. My first stab at this yielded astounding results, and I'm a total newb. This isn't rocket science, monks do it. I'm totally hooked.

 

[FatDragon]

What the Belgians are doing on a commercial scale CAN'T be magic. We're just missing a bit of key info to unlock their process. I'm not experienced enough to comment on the differences, but for chrissakes, it's a matter of sugar + heat. My first stab at this yielded astounding results, and I'm a total newb. This isn't rocket science, monks do it. I'm totally hooked.

Not sure about the monks, but does CSI boil in a vacuum maybe? Otherwise, maybe it's a matter of volume: my one experience cooking a large batch (15 kilos, I think) was wildly different from a small stovetop batch, so it's possible that you need a much longer heating process (which happens more naturally with a big batch) to get the same level of complexity as the big guys get.

The syrup I've made by following the recipe in the original post makes a delicious syrup that matches the color and flavor descriptions given, but it's a far cry from something like D-180.

 

[Travis K. Jansen]

I agree. Wish I knew. 2.5 lbs of d-180 costs $30 bills!

 

[eustacesk]

made the #5 last night. Turned out fantastic! I kept the burner a little below medium and brought it up to 290f when the water evaporated(Approx 20 mins). I added DAP @ 240F and didnt stir till i added water at 290F. I turned the burner down after that and kinda played with it to keep it between 240-285. Brought it up to 285 about 3 times very gently and it has no burnt taste at all. I was a little nervous about this and i am very pleased with how it turned out. Saved a ton of money!! Going to make several others. Thanks to all for the input

 

[eustacesk]

 

[eustacesk]

So i made another batch of #5 last night and compared it to D-180. Both me and my neighbor chose the homemade over the D-180 in a blind taste. The D-180 had good fruit notes, but lacked the depth of the homemade. The homemade had similar plum/raisin flavor but went much deeper with what i thought was somewhat coffee & chocolate. It had a slight taste of burnt sugar like the topping of creme brulee, which i found to be delicious. Thanks again for all the help. About to start making a lot of belgian candi

 

[Darthbrewder]

Has anyone tired to brew a beer primarily with this syrup? I mean, use the syrup as the base, add some specialty grains, hops, yeast... might be an interesting, maybe disgusting experiment?

 

[eustacesk]

Has anyone tired to brew a beer primarily with this syrup? I mean, use the syrup as the base, add some specialty grains, hops, yeast... might be an interesting, maybe disgusting experiment?

Almost sounds like youre suggesting a modified rum recipe. I made the westy 12 recipe from the CSI f]thread which was basically just 2 row and this I believe. It turned out fantastic. So this can def be the star of show

 

[BandonBrewingCo]

I used left-over wort from a beer brew as a source of nitrogen. I just added wort instead of water during the process. It's easy to save 1L of wort by freezing it in a plastic bottle. You can decant off the trub from what is left in the bottom of your boil kettle after brewing. I never waste any wort!

Good man yourself. Finding DAP is a pain in the hole where I am so will try this next brewday and report back!

 

[eimar]

Received my new Grainfather last month and wanted to brew my favorite recipe the RocheMontfort dubbel ( Brasserie Montfort is the name of my home brewery ) .Nice plum and raisin flavor.

 

[eimar]

The RocheMontfort label, I need a label in a hurry so that's what I came up with.

Jacques

 

[eimar]

Could someone please help me with my last production of candi syrup ? So far I produced the deep amber version 4 times ( included a 150 kg sugar version ) and the results have always been excellent. Yesterday I wanted to produce the light ( 260 F ) version for a belgian tripel recipe. Everything went smoothly until the final step ( adding 3/4 cup of water in order to stop the boil and reach the softball stage 240 F ) then it crystallized when I transfered to preheated mason jars. Could someone pleas explain what went wrong ? Is my candi syrup batch ruined ( I doubt it ). What should I do to uncrystallize it on brew day ?

Jacques

 

[bolus14]

Others can speak to why it crystallized better than I can, but it's not ruined, it's still very usable and the taste should be the same.

On brew day just soak the whole jar in some hot water before you need to pour it in to the boil. That should loosen it up enough do it will pour out. If not just use a spoon and scoop it out.

 

[FatDragon]

I always use hot wort or water (depending on if I'm adding it in the boil of the fermenter) to soak every last bit of sugar out of the jar when I add it to a batch, whether or not it's crystallized. Assuming the crystallized sugar isn't one big crystal, you could scoop out the majority and then melt the last bit that way. If it is one big crystal, do what @bolus14 said and soak the jar in hot water until the sugar melts enough to pour or dump it out of the jar.

 

[eimar]

Thank you bolus14 and FatDragon for the suggestiions. I"ll soak the jars in hot water ( I'm brewing tomorrow ) . Now about why it crystallize, I found an interesting article who suggests to add some lemon juice , 1/2 tbsp for each cup of sugar. " The citric acid in lemon juice hydrolyzes the sucrose molecules into glucose and fructose as you heat the sugar. The water in the lemon juice is also part of this process. This mixture of monosaccharides is much less crystalline in the same way that most mixtures are less crystalline than pure substances "

 

[eimar]

I brewed yesterday and soaked the 2 masons jas in boiling water for about 45 minutes. Worked fine. Thank's again.

Jacques

 

[divrack]

Just followed instructions exactly for the double cooked type. Went well but at some point it became too burnt sugar tasting. Now tastes quite si sour, burnt toast..
Used beet sugar. I think the proportions of fructose maltose must vary, and possibly the amount of dap.
Will try a version cooked cooler and report back.

 

[eimar]

Just followed instructions exactly for the double cooked type. Went well but at some point it became too burnt sugar tasting. Now tastes quite si sour, burnt toast..
Used beet sugar. I think the proportions of fructose maltose must vary, and possibly the amount of dap.
Will try a version cooked cooler and report back.

I tried that one ( double cooked ) too but to me ( just my personal opinion here ) the burnt taste was overdone. So I'll stick to the Mahogany (300F) recipe. 2 weeks ago I made some 80kg of candi syrup in Brasil at the "cervejaria Bodebrown" owned by my good friend Samuel Cavalcanti.

 

[Gnomebrewer]

Sucrose is made up of a fructose and glucose (not maltose). Chemically, refined beet sugar is the same as refined cane sugar, I doubt you'd notice a difference. In the raw (with impurities) there would be differences.

 

[Jayjay1976]

View attachment 596035
I tried that one ( double cooked ) too but to me ( just my personal opinion here ) the burnt taste was overdone. So I'll stick to the Mahogany (300F) recipe. 2 weeks ago I made some 80kg of candi syrup in Brasil at the "cervejaria Bodebrown" owned by my good friend Samuel Cavalcanti.

WOW! Now that is a legit environment for candy sugar development!!!
Me personally, I love the 290f flavor profile for dubbels and quads.

 

[divrack]

Sucrose is made up of a fructose and glucose (not maltose). Chemically, refined beet sugar is the same as refined cane sugar, I doubt you'd notice a difference. In the raw (with impurities) there would be differences.

Sorry that's what I meant, was late..
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/25124655
And
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/25308166
Suggest there are differences.
Also if you talk to experienced pastry chefs, some of them tell you that caramelization happens differently.
I'm not at all sure why this is, I know fructose caramelizes at a much lower temperature so wondered if there is some discrepancy in the way the disaccharide breaks down or of there is some fructose in beet. Probably not I suppose but I've heard it suggested as an explanation.
Anyway my data seems to confirm the finding that there are differences. I will try again with cane sugar today and play science. I might even put some in my Erlenmeyer flask and swish it about for no reason other than SCIENCE!!.

 

[divrack]

Sorry that's what I meant, was late..
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/25124655
And
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/25308166
Suggest there are differences.
Also if you talk to experienced pastry chefs, some of them tell you that caramelization happens differently.
I'm not at all sure why this is, I know fructose caramelizes at a much lower temperature so wondered if there is some discrepancy in the way the disaccharide breaks down or of there is some fructose in beet. Probably not I suppose but I've heard it suggested as an explanation.
Anyway my data seems to confirm the finding that there are differences. I will try again with cane sugar today and play science. I might even put some in my Erlenmeyer flask and swish it about for no reason other than SCIENCE!!.

Ok, so couldn't get refined cane sugar so I ditched my plan fora side by side science tastic experiment and went with my usual cooks approach mixing educated guesses with "sensory data". (Eyes and nose to non scientists.
Probably because it was unrefined there were some problems with it foaming and recrystaizing at about 260 as you can see at the beige droplet. I added some cold water and stirred and it cleared as it came back up to temperature.
Fructose starts to caramalise much earlier than glucose which starts at around 260 and as this is the point at which I observed the most change I decided to keep cooling with water and reheating to around this point to avoid burnt flavours and coax out as much flavour as possible constantly smirking and tasting the syrup to avoid burnt flavours. As soon as I detected harsh notes I added water taking it back to somewhere around 240.
Highest i went up to was around 275 on the second reheat.
Plum gave way to cherry/maraschino which have way to a woody smokiness which reminded me of childhood saunas in Finland.
Scared of making the same mistake as yesterday I would add water again and again to take the temp back down, but all stages of heating changed the flavour.
Finally I percieved that the plum flavour was disappearing so i stopped, but when I added the syrup toa little water and tasted it out was still there in a big way along with the woodier notes and some inviting sharpness.
Reassured that it wasn't burning I took it back up to about 270 and dropped it to 240 again. In all it was probably about6 cycles. Tastes pretty great. Looks similar to the double cooked recipe that ended up too burnt tasting but is more translucent and red rather than brown/black.
Also mixed both syrups in water which is interesting. The burnt sugar as an interesting edge that might do well in a porter or stout replacing black malt.

 

[divrack]

Ok, so couldn't get refined cane sugar so I ditched my plan fora side by side science tastic experiment and went with my usual cooks approach mixing educated guesses with "sensory data". (Eyes and nose to non scientists.
Probably because it was unrefined there were some problems with it foaming and recrystaizing at about 260 as you can see at the beige droplet. I added some cold water and stirred and it cleared as it came back up to temperature.
Fructose starts to caramalise much earlier than glucose which starts at around 260 and as this is the point at which I observed the most change I decided to keep cooling with water and reheating to around this point to avoid burnt flavours and coax out as much flavour as possible constantly smirking and tasting the syrup to avoid burnt flavours. As soon as I detected harsh notes I added water taking it back to somewhere around 240.
Highest i went up to was around 275 on the second reheat.
Plum gave way to cherry/maraschino which have way to a woody smokiness which reminded me of childhood saunas in Finland.
Scared of making the same mistake as yesterday I would add water again and again to take the temp back down, but all stages of heating changed the flavour.
Finally I percieved that the plum flavour was disappearing so i stopped, but when I added the syrup toa little water and tasted it out was still there in a big way along with the woodier notes and some inviting sharpness.
Reassured that it wasn't burning I took it back up to about 270 and dropped it to 240 again. In all it was probably about6 cycles. Tastes pretty great. Looks similar to the double cooked recipe that ended up too burnt tasting but is more translucent and red rather than brown/black.
Also mixed both syrups in water which is interesting. The burnt sugar as an interesting edge that might do well in a porter or stout replacing black malt.View attachment 596105 View attachment 596106

Forgot to add that I reduced the amount of dap to 2 teaspoons in the second version as the first lot tasted too acidic. Also the dap is Young's yeast nutrient which has amonium sulphate in as well. No idea how this would affect things.