20 lb of sugar and a jar of yeast nutrient

[jbb3]

Has anyone thought to add a little bit of vanilla extract for more flavor? I know most of the flavor is supposed to come from the converted sugar, but it seems to me that adding some vanilla would enhance the flavor.

I guess anything's worth a try!? For some reason, vanilla extract does not conjure up good beer flavor thoughts in my head??

Probably don't need to put it in the caramel, just add it during the boil. You try it first!

 

[Newsman]

I guess anything's worth a try!? For some reason, vanilla extract does not conjure up good beer flavor thoughts in my head??

Probably don't need to put it in the caramel, just add it during the boil. You try it first!

I've added vanilla to an imperial milk stout. Tasted pretty good.

 

[TheHairyHop]

Has anyone thought to add a little bit of vanilla extract for more flavor? I know most of the flavor is supposed to come from the converted sugar, but it seems to me that adding some vanilla would enhance the flavor.

I see no reason to include it in the sugar

 

[Shenanigans]

Like a lot of people who ended up on this thread I'm planning on brewing a Caramel Amber Ale.
I just finished making the Deep Amber version and used 2 - 1/2 tsps of Wyeast Nutrient and also added 1/4 tsp of pure Citric Acid powder.
Not sure if the acid was needed but it tastes good anyway.
Will brew the beer in 2 days time but I made too much so I need to figure out what I will do with the rest.
Can I keep it for a few weeks and heat it back up if it starts to separate or go hard?

I'd like to do a Leffe Radieuse clone and use this syrup in it.

 

[FatDragon]

Like a lot of people who ended up on this thread I'm planning on brewing a Caramel Amber Ale.
I just finished making the Deep Amber version and used 2 - 1/2 tsps of Wyeast Nutrient and also added 1/4 tsp of pure Citric Acid powder.
Not sure if the acid was needed but it tastes good anyway.
Will brew the beer in 2 days time but I made too much so I need to figure out what I will do with the rest.
Can I keep it for a few weeks and heat it back up if it starts to separate or go hard?

I'd like to do a Leffe Radieuse clone and use this syrup in it.

It'll keep for a while, and if it gets hard, that's no really a problem. As the OP says, it's also great for putting in your coffee or anywhere else you would use any kind of sweet syrup.

 

[theQ]

I tried this numerous times these syrups, work great - I always go after flavor but I was wondering anyone can tell me what would be the right match for D90 ? I need to use it in a recipe and I don't know how to match it.

 

[jtp137]

I tried this numerous times these syrups, work great - I always go after flavor but I was wondering anyone can tell me what would be the right match for D90 ? I need to use it in a recipe and I don't know how to match it.

I tried to copy D90 or D180 and failed I dont think you can match the flavor or fermentability. I tried homemade syrup three times and couldn't get it to ferment out or get the classic dark fruit flavors like bought syrups. If you figure it out let me know

 

[theQ]

I tried to copy D90 or D180 and failed I dont think you can match the flavor or fermentability. I tried homemade syrup three times and couldn't get it to ferment out or get the classic dark fruit flavors like bought syrups. If you figure it out let me know

I made the 265F and 300F versions and they fermented just fine.
I will buy a D90 and do a side by side comparison while I do my onw syrup.

Anyone tried to do the syrup using brown sugar ??? Is it more intense does the molasses burn ?

 

[joelemma]

I made the #5 recipe today. It is amazing tasting. Raisins and a bit of tartness. Looking forward to trying it in a Dark Strong Belgian.

Thanks SnickASaurusRex

 

[jjp36]

I made the 265F and 300F versions and they fermented just fine.
I will buy a D90 and do a side by side comparison while I do my onw syrup.

Anyone tried to do the syrup using brown sugar ??? Is it more intense does the molasses burn ?

I've never used brown sugar, but i have used turbinado/demerara sugar before and i thought it had a better flavor profile then the times i made it using plain white sugar. I only make these recipes with turbinado now.

 

[Shenanigans]

Anyone ever used this syrup for bottle conditioning? I made a 2lb batch but only used 1lb in the beer so was wondering if I could use some of the leftovers for conditioning.

 

[troglodytes]

I made this for the first time last night. I kept the heat so low that it took about an hour and fifteen minutes to get to 260F, the thing is the color and flavor resembles the 270-280F for OPs earlier posts. I figure my thermometer is off a bit, but now I'm wondering does the longer cook time result in a darker product? Not that I'm too worried, the result was delicious.

Shenanigans: I use the krausening method for bottle conditioning and did not have enough volume of wort to save to get to the correct carb level so I'm going to use my leftovers. I'll let you know how it goes, but I don't see any issue as it should be pretty close to 100% fermentable.

 

[Shenanigans]

Shenanigans: I use the krausening method for bottle conditioning and did not have enough volume of wort to save to get to the correct carb level so I'm going to use my leftovers. I'll let you know how it goes, but I don't see any issue as it should be pretty close to 100% fermentable.

Cool I made a batch of the 290F about two weeks ago and the Caramel Amber Ale I brewed with it was down to 1.008 after about 10 days so I guess it is indeed highly fermentable. My beer is ready now so I'll probably bottle it on Sunday with some of the rest. I'll aim for 2.6 instead of 2.5 volumes just to be sure.

 

[IslandLizard]

I made this for the first time last night. I kept the heat so low that it took about an hour and fifteen minutes to get to 260F, the thing is the color and flavor resembles the 270-280F for OPs earlier posts. I figure my thermometer is off a bit, but now I'm wondering does the longer cook time result in a darker product? Not that I'm too worried, the result was delicious.

Shenanigans: I use the krausening method for bottle conditioning and did not have enough volume of wort to save to get to the correct carb level so I'm going to use my leftovers. I'll let you know how it goes, but I don't see any issue as it should be pretty close to 100% fermentable.

It may darken a bit more with longer cook times, but the main parameter that drives color is temperature. Since there's still some evaporation, by adding small amounts of water (teaspoons) during the cooking process one can keep the temp right on 260°F (or whatever you choose). The slower it cooks the less evaporates, and the more flavor develops.

I made a batch of "Belgian" candi sugar syrup at 260°F, basically inverted sugar, by using and acid (phosphoric) instead of lime. This is a different product than what you used here. The 2nd trial was nice, light, and spot on, keeping heat very low and at the right temp for 20-30 minutes. The first one came out way too dark as the temp rose above 280 for a while, darkening quickly.

 

[theQ]

I've never used brown sugar, but i have used turbinado/demerara sugar before and i thought it had a better flavor profile then the times i made it using plain white sugar. I only make these recipes with turbinado now.

Would you say the 290F is close to the D90 ? What's your take on that comparison ? Do they compare ?

Also where from you get the Turbinado sugar ?

 

[jjp36]

Would you say the 290F is close to the D90 ? What's your take on that comparison ? Do they compare ?

Also where from you get the Turbinado sugar ?

I think the 290 compares pretty favorably in my mind. I use the 290F in every quad/dubbel I make, and they always have nice dark fruit notes and finish nice and dry. I've entered them in several comps and never had any judge be able to pick out that the candi sugar was homemade. They always score in the mid-upper 30s and several have taken home medals.

This is the sugar i usually use. I have also used their organic sugar before with good results

 

[theQ]

I think the 290 compares pretty favorably in my mind. I use the 290F in every quad/dubbel I make, and they always have nice dark fruit notes and finish nice and dry. I've entered them in several comps and never had any judge be able to pick out that the candi sugar was homemade. They always score in the mid-upper 30s and several have taken home medals.

This is the sugar i usually use. I have also used their organic sugar before with good results

Thanks a lot! I'd do that. I did a 290 once, was really nice. I am thinking to add 1lb of dates sugar to it. That would bring in some really nice notes.

 

[rshortt]

I am thinking to add 1lb of dates sugar to it. That would bring in some really nice notes.

^^^ This.

I think that's what we're missing here. I mean this candi syrup is great but I think adding date sugar would take it to the next level.

 

[Zymurg]

I have made this syrup using regular granulated white sugar from the grocery store and Baker's Ammonia (ammonium carbonate) from the health food store.

I cooked it using the method of adding some water and reheating a couple of times to finish it at 240F as in Sugar #5

It came out dark brown, almost black, consistency of corn syrup and a nice caramelly flavour with a touch of tartness, no burned flavour at all.

I used it last weekend to make a Black IPA.

White refined sugar is sucrose and is the same whether the source is beet or cane.

 

[WillieBananas]

Anyone try using this in cider or apfelwein?

 

[FatDragon]

Got a buddy with a small brewery across town who wants to make a batch of this for a 500L Belgian quad. Anybody have any tips or tricks for doing this on a larger scale? I'm mostly wondering about heat: should he run a bigger flame to heat a greater volume, or will he risk scorching the sugar or getting it to a boil before it's all dissolved that way?

 

[IslandLizard]

Got a buddy with a small brewery across town who wants to make a batch of this for a 500L Belgian quad. Anybody have any tips or tricks for doing this on a larger scale? I'm mostly wondering about heat: should he run a bigger flame to heat a greater volume, or will he risk scorching the sugar or getting it to a boil before it's all dissolved that way?

He definitely should gain experience with sugar syrups by doing a few small batches of say 1-5 pounds progressively, so he can get a feel for what happens and what to look out and watch for. Thick bottomed pots help to diffuse heat and an accurate thermometer is paramount.

Temperature is key, so having some cold water ready to add to the bubbly sugar mixture is essential. While adding heat, evaporation continues, you can't stop that in an open vessel, and that raises the boiling temperature of the mixture. This is unwanted during the maillard reaction process, it needs to remain steady for a long time. On my first try it got too hot suddenly and it turned very dark quickly, the resulting syrup was acrid and not usable. On the 3rd try I knew what to watch out for and add some cold water repeatedly to reduce the boiling point of the thick sugar mixture quickly. It's easy to make it too dark way too soon.

 

[FatDragon]

He definitely should gain experience with sugar syrups by doing a few small batches of say 1-5 pounds progressively, so he can get a feel for what happens and what to look out and watch for. Thick bottomed pots help to diffuse heat and an accurate thermometer is paramount.

Temperature is key, so having some cold water ready to add to the bubbly sugar mixture is essential. While adding heat, evaporation continues, you can't stop that in an open vessel, and that raises the boiling temperature of the mixture. This is unwanted during the maillard reaction process, it needs to remain steady for a long time. On my first try it got too hot suddenly and it turned very dark quickly, the resulting syrup was acrid and not usable. On the 3rd try I knew what to watch out for and add some cold water repeatedly to reduce the boiling point of the thick sugar mixture quickly. It's easy to make it too dark way too soon.

Interesting. The part in red is kind've the opposite of my experience with candi syrup and brewing: for the most part my early attempts were pretty successful because I followed the processes diligently. Then I started to go fast and loose and a couple later syrups and more of my recent beers than I care to admit came out poorly, so now I'm returning to the quality control side of things to try and get back on track. I'll pass on the suggestion about starting smaller so he doesn't waste the time, sugar, and precious DAP I carried back from the States on a poorly-made 20kg batch.

 

[IslandLizard]

Interesting. The part in red is kind've the opposite of my experience with candi syrup and brewing: for the most part my early attempts were pretty successful because I followed the processes diligently. Then I started to go fast and loose and a couple later syrups and more of my recent beers than I care to admit came out poorly, so now I'm returning to the quality control side of things to try and get back on track. I'll pass on the suggestion about starting smaller so he doesn't waste the time, sugar, and precious DAP I carried back from the States on a poorly-made 20kg batch.

I followed the process diligently too, but didn't realize that the temps keep rising as the mixture starts to contain less and less water (through evaporation) and relatively more sugar, thus raising the boiling point. The only way to keep the temp at the correct level, say 260F, is by adding small amounts of cold water, a teaspoon in a pound batch, every few minutes or when needed, even with the burner turned way down.

Strange you cannot buy DAP where you live. Di-Ammonium Phosphate is a very common chemical and ingredient.

 

[TastyAdventure]

I read this whole thread and made a lb of dark sugar for my "BDSA." I used s small amount of citric acid per another source, bc I had it in hand and apparently it works.
I simmered the sugar for 1 hr 15 min, temp was between 250-270. It did not turn out quite as dark as I hoped, and after added to the beer didn't add much color at all. There's also not a lot of deep "dark fruit" flavors in the finished product.
Should I go out and get some DAP next time? Is "Yeast Nutrient" the same thing? (I have some of that)
Also, some sources say you should up temp to 300 for darker colors, others are adamant to not get too high...
I will be trying this again for a Dubbel

 

[Beerswimmer]

I have been making my own candi sugar/syrup for a while now. I find that I need to add date sugar to mine to get it as dark as D-180 and to have a similar flavor. I buy a pound of dates, split in half and de-seed, bake at 400 until dark and crispy, remove from heat and grind into powder. I add the date sugar to the boiling sugar with some water when the sugar gets to a dark red color and cook for another 15-20 mins or so.

 

[FatDragon]

I followed the process diligently too, but didn't realize that the temps kept rising as the mixture starts to contain less and less water (through evaporation) and relatively more sugar, thus raising the boiling point. The only way to keep the temp at the correct level, say 260F, is by adding small amounts of cold water, a teaspoon in a pound batch, every few minutes or when needed, even with the burner turned way down.

Strange you cannot buy DAP where you live. Di-Ammonium Phosphate is a very common chemical and ingredient.

I'm not very good at chemical name translation for the search, and none of my Chinese homebrew buddies have been able to help either. The batches I've made were all done with way overpriced yeast energizer, which I believe is DAP and dead yeast cells as a nutrient.

Interesting, that about adding water to slow down the boil. Once it starts to rise above the soft ball stage, the temperature rises really fast so the darkening does occur quickly, but I thought that was just how it was supposed to be. I'll have to try adding bits of water to slow it down next time I make a batch.

 

[FatDragon]

I read this whole thread and made a lb of dark sugar for my "BDSA." I used s small amount of citric acid per another source, bc I had it in hand and apparently it works.
I simmered the sugar for 1 hr 15 min, temp was between 250-270. It did not turn out quite as dark as I hoped, and after added to the beer didn't add much color at all. There's also not a lot of deep "dark fruit" flavors in the finished product.
Should I go out and get some DAP next time? Is "Yeast Nutrient" the same thing? (I have some of that)
Also, some sources say you should up temp to 300 for darker colors, others are adamant to not get too high...
I will be trying this again for a Dubbel

I think citric acid is good for caramelization and DAP is good for maillard reactions, but I'm probably wrong. I've also found that this stuff doesn't add much color - a pound of the darkest I can make (without burnt sugar flavors) barely bumps up the color of a five pound batch of beer, maybe 1-2 SRM difference.

Yeast Nutrient is generally dead yeast, it doesn't contain the chemicals needed for the reaction we're going for. Yeast energizer is a mixture of DAP and yeast nutrient, but pure DAP (I think I paid $4 for a 1 lb bag that should be adequate for around 100 lb of the darkest candi syrup in this thread) is best.

 

[orangehero]

Diammonium phosphate is pretty much the definition of yeast nutrient.

Citric acid enhances inversion, or the breakdown of sucrose into fructose and glucose, which then go on to react with nitrogen compounds (the ammonium in DAP) to form maillard products. The phosphate forms phosphoric acid and acts in a similar role when you use DAP.

High pH helps to drive maillard reactions, so the best course would be to first invert the sucrose, neutralize the acid (although you can invert just through elevated temp), and then perform the maillard forming step at a raised pH.

Also, when you change the source of nitrogen (DAP) or have a more complex source (DAP + yeast) you will create a different flavor profile.

http://www.midwestsupplies.com/yeast-energizer-vs-yeast-nutrient.html

 

[FatDragon]

Diammonium phosphate is pretty much the definition of yeast nutrient.

Citric acid enhances inversion, or the breakdown of sucrose into fructose and glucose, which then go on to react with nitrogen compounds (the ammonium in DAP) to form maillard products. The phosphate forms phosphoric acid and acts in a similar role when you use DAP.

High pH helps to drive maillard reactions, so the best course would be to first invert the sucrose, neutralize the acid (although you can invert just through elevated temp), and then perform the maillard forming step at a raised pH.

Also, when you change the source of nitrogen (DAP) or have a more complex source (DAP + yeast) you will create a different flavor profile.

http://www.midwestsupplies.com/yeast-energizer-vs-yeast-nutrient.html

I stand corrected and elaborated upon. Listen to this guy - not my imprecise and occasionally wrong drivel.