20 lb of sugar and a jar of yeast nutrient

[Bensiff]

I did two attempts at the 260 this weekend per directions and using DAP both ended up being the consistency of half crystylized honey. Reading all 39 pages, I have three thoughts: 1, need to use more water when cooling down; 2, hold below boiling to make sure all sugar is in solution so there are not crystals available post boil as nucleation points before going higher; 3, hold at 250 for 30 minutes to make sure full inversion has occured. I suppose I could check my temp probe too. Any other thoughts?

 

[DSmith]

Making 2# of the 270F sugar went smoothly per the instructions in post #1. I kept the heat low on my gas stove (2 out of 6) and needed to adjust the heat up a little at the very end to get to 270F. The color was very similar to the pic posted early in this thread (comparison below).



The hardest part was getting the cooled & thick (gel-like) sugar mixed into the 5 gallons of cooled (65F) apple juice. I sanitized a spatula and incrementally used the juice mixed into the pot with the sugar to dissolve the sugar before transferring to the carboy. I think this is better than putting the sugar syrup into the carboy warm and maybe having it crystallize later. I aerate with a drill & paddles, this helped sugar clumps dissolve too.



Edit: After reading more posts, I will skip heating once the 2nd amount of water is added to see if the product stays more liquid.



View attachment 215324

View attachment 215325

I transferred my apfelwein with the 270F sugar to a secondary. The gravity was 1.000, very close to past versions using corn sugar (0.998). The sugar was very fermentable. I didn't have any extra to sample. It'll be 6 months before I bottle.

The 270F sugar may not have been fully inverted, but the yeast didn't seem to care.





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[mcbethenstein]

I did two attempts at the 260 this weekend per directions and using DAP both ended up being the consistency of half crystylized honey. Reading all 39 pages, I have three thoughts: 1, need to use more water when cooling down; 2, hold below boiling to make sure all sugar is in solution so there are not crystals available post boil as nucleation points before going higher; 3, hold at 250 for 30 minutes to make sure full inversion has occured. I suppose I could check my temp probe too. Any other thoughts?

You are on the right track. I make real caramels as well and the biggest thing there is to wipe down the sides of the pot. If stirred too much afterward or if even a single crystal remains it becomes the seed crystal for the rest to start forming. Since this is usually going into a brew and liquid volume/concentration isn't as important, I vote for a touch more cooling water at the end, and only bringing back to a boil, not 240°F.

p.s. Any leftovers put into a clean vinegar/oil style bottle with a spout makes a great syrup to add to coffee. Just watch out as it can mold over the months.


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[kvedderman]

I just made the dark amber and it came out beautiful..I cut the recipe in half and it came out perfect..Looks just like the color you have posted for 290 degrees..Make sure your thermometer is good and it makes it itself..Got to 290 and put in 3/4 cup of water which took it down to 219 then let it go back to 240 and flame out..Total time on a medium heat was 20 to 25 minutes..

Awesome..stoked to brew an amber ale and toss this in..GREAT recipe!!

 

[Chris7687]

Sorry to side track this thread, but is this DAP the correct DAP? I was concerned as they were talking about gardening with it and nothing about ingesting it. I would assume it's the same, but just want to play it safe and not poison myself or my friends!

Thanks!

 

[jtd_419]

Sorry to side track this thread, but is this DAP the correct DAP? I was concerned as they were talking about gardening with it and nothing about ingesting it. I would assume it's the same, but just want to play it safe and not poison myself or my friends!

Thanks!

If you read the description on that link it says brewing and winemaking are uses for it. I would assume that it's the same stuff

 

[Chris7687]

That it does, sorry. Just skimmed the description. Thanks! Here goes my second attempt, used Wyeast Yeast Nutrient the first time which did not end up working.

 

[z-bob]

I've been reading everything I can find this evening about candi sugar -- including about half of this thread before I jumped to the end. There's a lot of confusion about invert sugar vs. caramel (pyrolyzed sugar) vs. the browning (Maillard) reaction. The more I read, the confused-er I get, but it's coming into focus. This weekend I will try making dark amber (red) candi syrup because I'll be brewing a Dubbel soon.

A few things that I've figured out:

• You can make caramel with just sucrose by heating it without water to about 330 degrees. Look up "burnt sugar syrup" You do the same thing with water and they call it "caramel syrup"
  
• You normally make invert sugar by boiling sucrose in water with a little bit of acid. Presumption: If you add white sugar directly to your brew kettle at the beginning of the boil, it should invert because the wort is acidic; there's no need to make white invert sugar ahead of time.
  
• Fructose caramelizes easier than sucrose or glucose. That might be why everyone thinks you need to invert the sugar. I have no idea at this point whether the sugar needs to be inverted.
  
• Sugar will invert without adding an acid, it just takes longer.
  
• Acid inhibits Maillard browning, and base really really increases it (that's why bagels and pretzels are boiled in lye)
  
• DAP contains nitrogen, but I think more importantly it is a base and raises the pH to where browning can occur. I don't know if the ammonium stands in for amino acids in the reaction, or if it's just trace amino acid impurities in the sugar that brown.

Real Belgian candi sugar is supposed to be made from beet sugar with no additives. (I read that somewhere.) No acids, no bases, no salts, no malt extract. Just sugar and water (which is then boiled away.) Here's how I think they do it: their beet sugar is refined, but it's not as highly refined as our granulated sugar. It still has traces of proteins and amino acids. Also the refining process leaves it with high pH. So they boil the sugar and the proteins brown, and they keep boiling it and the sugar caramelizes, and all that is dependent on the impurities that our white sugar doesn't have.

We've been borrowing science from candy makers, but perhaps we should be borrowing from bakers instead. I will post my untested recipe in a follow-up post in a few minutes. And in a few days I will post whether it worked or not.

 

[z-bob]

Sorry for such a long previous post.

Here's what I came up with, combining everything I read on the Internet today. I hope it works:

UNTESTED RECIPE FOR DARK CANDI SYRUP​

Combine 1 pound sugar, 1 rounded tsp bread flour, and 1/2 cup water in a heavy saucepan. Heat to 255-275°F (use a candy thermometer) and hold at that temperature for 20 minutes. [this hold time is for some of the sugar to invert]

Add 2M sodium hydroxide solution a drop at a time to start the browning reaction. [I don't know how many drops yet] There should be an almost immediate color change. Continue cooking at 275°F (add small amounts of cold water if necessary to keep the temperature from rising) until the color turns dark amber and then red. This should go pretty fast. For darker candi syrup, raise temperature to 300-330° until the desired color is achieved. This is the sugar caramelizing. Don't go any hotter or it will burn. When it reaches the desired color, add another half a cup of water -- be careful, it will sputter and pop -- to make a syrup. Simmer and stir just until it all dissolves, and when cool store in a glass jar. It shouldn't need refrigeration.

2M sodium hydroxide solution: Add 8 grams of food-grade or reagent grade lye to 100 ml of distilled water. (Red Devil lye is close enough for me) Store in a tightly closed bottle. If you can't find high enough grade lye, slaked lime (pickling lime) should work but it might take more.

The flour is to supply proteins for the Maillard reaction. The starch should convert to dextrin.

 

[troy2000]

I believe the Belgians use beet sugar simply because it's cheap and available there, not because there's any detectable difference between it and cane sugar.

 

[z-bob]

I believe the Belgians use beet sugar simply because it's cheap and available there, not because there's any detectable difference between it and cane sugar.

That's true. Cane sugar would do about the same thing. The point was that their sugar might be alkaline from the processing and ours isn't. And if it has traces of protein in it, either from the beets or from the bonechar, it has everything it needs for browning and caramelization.

This is all theory. I'll put it to practice real soon and see if it washes-out. Tomorrow is my wife's birthday, so I won't get to experiment until Saturday or Sunday.

I've seen too many videos and blogs with people boiling sugar and a little citric acid or potassium bitartrate for *hours* just to get to a light amber without much flavor. I think we are doing it wrong. First I started to go the burnt sugar route, but the DAP thing looks a lot closer -- but maybe not quite there yet.

I have no idea about adding the wheat flour. Other people use DME to get a little protein. I don't have any DME, and flour has twice the protein so it won't take as much. If it works, that's my contribution.

 

[podz]

I believe the Belgians use beet sugar simply because it's cheap and available there, not because there's any detectable difference between it and cane sugar.

Exactly, beets grow well in European climates (especially up here in Scandinavia). There is only a .05% difference between "beet sugar" and "cane sugar". I would actually be surprised if cane sugar was sold anywhere in Europe.

 

[orangehero]

The candi syrup manufacturers are secretive about the process because it's extremely simple. The source of nitrogen or amino acids you use makes a big difference in the flavor, though.

 

[rshortt]

The candi syrup manufacturers are secretive about the process because it's extremely simple. The source of nitrogen or amino acids you use makes a big difference in the flavor, though.

Real Belgian candi sugar is supposed to be made from beet sugar with no additives.

They use date sugar too and I'm guessing at a higher rate with the darker syrups. Using date sugar (instead of DAP) is something no one here has tried yet.

 

[troy2000]

I've seen too many videos and blogs with people boiling sugar and a little citric acid or potassium bitartrate for *hours* just to get to a light amber without much flavor. I think we are doing it wrong....

Well, somebody's doing it wrong.

I usually make the candi for a 5 gal batch while I'm mashing - in a cast-iron pan with a pound of sugar, enough water to get it wet, a squirt of lemon juice, a good thermometer and a lot of stirring. It takes me less than half an hour, not hours, to reach the dark amber stage.

 

[podz]

It takes me less than half an hour, not hours, to reach the dark amber stage.

Indeed, it's not rocket science.

 

[z-bob]

Sorry for such a long previous post.

Here's what I came up with, combining everything I read on the Internet today. I hope it works:

UNTESTED RECIPE FOR DARK CANDI SYRUP​

Combine 1 pound sugar, 1 rounded tsp bread flour, and 1/2 cup water in a heavy saucepan. Heat to 255-275°F (use a candy thermometer) and hold at that temperature for 20 minutes. [this hold time is for some of the sugar to invert]

Add 2M sodium hydroxide solution a drop at a time to start the browning reaction. [I don't know how many drops yet] There should be an almost immediate color change...

I ended up with something usable, but it's not very dark. Has a good toasty and marshmallowy smell to it.

It took forever to get it to 250 degrees because it kept foaming up and wanted to boil over. I was able to hold it at 255 for a while (that's when the marshmallow smell started) but it nearly boiled over and i had to stir it down with my thermometer. At that point it all suddenly crystallized. (it was impressive to see) The resulting dry sugar was a very light tan.

I added maybe an ounce of water and brought it back to a boil. Shaking the pan instead of stirring when I needed to knock the foam down. When it started to darken again, I added 2 cc's of 2 molar sodium hydroxide solution and stirred that in. It quickly turned a nice medium brown. (I was going for red-amber) It still had undissolved sugar crystals from the previous trouble and I was afraid it was going to seize up again, so I turned it off and added some water (I don't know, about 6 ounces) and put the lid on.

I'm not going to call this a success or a failure; it was a little of both. I need to go back and simmer it a bit to dissolve the last of the sugar crystals, then pour it in a canning jar to brew with next weekend.

I think the starch is what caused the foaming problems.

 

[TheHairyHop]

Going to be making a pound or so of the dark amber to up the ante on an IPA this weekend. Does everyone just add it at the end of the boil?

 

[macdaddymike]

I like to make pralines around Christmastime, and after reading this, I had an epiphany to use pralines in the brew kettle. Pralines have brown sugar, condensed milk, butter, vanilla, perhaps bourbon and always pecans. The mixture is brought to the soft ball stage, which is ~242ºF. I wonder what impact the condensed milk, butter and vanilla will have.
I'm thinking of using this in a dubbel. Any thoughts?

 

[jtd_419]

Try it and send me a bottle, I'll give you an honest opinion

 

[TheHairyHop]

I like to make pralines around Christmastime, and after reading this, I had an epiphany to use pralines in the brew kettle. Pralines have brown sugar, condensed milk, butter, vanilla, perhaps bourbon and always pecans. The mixture is brought to the soft ball stage, which is ~242ºF. I wonder what impact the condensed milk, butter and vanilla will have.
I'm thinking of using this in a dubbel. Any thoughts?

fat is usually a no go for beer

 

[Dannost]

I tried snickasaurus' method. Followed recipe for 290 dark Amber. Boiled it to the 290, added in the water, boiled it back up to 240. Then put in a cold water bath for a bit and put into glass jars. Then it set up quite hard. Anyone know what I missed to make it stay a syrup?

 

[TheHairyHop]

240 isn't a syrup stage for sugar. You're at the firm and softball stage

http://www.craftybaking.com/howto/candy-sugar-syrup-temperature-chart

 

[jbb3]

So do I really have to use brewers yeast or will my moms sourdough junk work?

No really...

I just blew through 20 lbs of sugar and a jar of DAP yeast nutrient trying to perfect my caramelized "Candi Syrup" recipe. and this is what I came up with...

Deep Amber (290F)
-Deep amber with full red colors. Raisins and plums are the dominant flavors with a hint of toast and coffee. Some rummy and mildly woody flavors. Strong complex caramels are present. It is a sophisticated sweetness with a robust, full characteristic. This is my favorite.

2 Lbs Sugar
1 Cup Water
2 – 1/2 tsp DAP
1 – 1/2 Cup Water

Happy sugar making and good brewing.

Hello SnickASaurusRex, I know this is an old post but have a question I hope you don't mind answering??

For KingBrian's Caramel Amber Ale recipe, it calls for half a batch of your Caramel syrup. I reduced the sugar to 1 lb, the water to 1/2 cup but I put the full 2-1/2 tsp of DAP in the solution. Does that hurt anything?? It seems to look about right but don't know if that changes the complexity or makeup of the syrup?? What do you think??

 

[jbb3]

BTW, When I taste it, it's not sweet like I thought it would be and it leaves a dryness in my mouth after it dissolves. Is that normal or is that from the excessive DAP in the solution??

 

[jbb3]

For anyone interested, I made another batch with the stated amount of DAP and the dry aftertaste is gone and it is somewhat sweeter. So too much DAP does affect the results.

 

[MT2sum]

Great recipe, THX

 

[Dannost]

240 isn't a syrup stage for sugar. You're at the firm and softball stage

http://www.craftybaking.com/howto/candy-sugar-syrup-temperature-chart

Soft ball stage is exactly what Snickasaurus said to bring it back up to -
240. I assumed the DAP changed the make up somehow. Although it
was harder than a soft ball. I probably should have reduced the final temp. a couple of degrees to adjust for elevation above sea level. Would that make that much difference?

 

[jbb3]

Soft ball stage is exactly what Snickasaurus said to bring it back up to -
240. I assumed the DAP changed the make up somehow. Although it
was harder than a soft ball. I probably should have reduced the final temp. a couple of degrees to adjust for elevation above sea level. Would that make that much difference?

There is a fairly fine line between softball and a harder set. If your thermometer is a few degrees off, it could push your caramel just past the softball stage. Next time, shoot for 135 and see what you get.

BTW, I did the same thing and ended up with a hard set. I had to heat it up a bit and swish some boiling wort around in it in order to get it all into the boil. It is still usable, just a little more work.

 

[Newsman]

Has anyone thought to add a little bit of vanilla extract for more flavor? I know most of the flavor is supposed to come from the converted sugar, but it seems to me that adding some vanilla would enhance the flavor.