20 lb of sugar and a jar of yeast nutrient

[TANSTAAFB]

Yes my understanding is that all these cooked sugars usually ferment out almost completely. Which begs the question of why bother to make these?
In a less flavorful beer like a Belgian ale, they come through but somewhat subdued.

What Belgian beers are you drinking that you consider "less flavorful"? I think many Belgians are some of the most flavorful and complex beers I've ever tasted. The candi syrup is supposed to dry out the beer while contributing to the flavor profile. Of course most of the subtle flavors contributed by the syrup will be overpowered and lost in a porter or a stout...too much roast malt flavors there already. I bet it added a layer of complexity that would be missing if you brewed the same recipe without it though.

 

[CZs]

maybe they're right - the way they utilized it resulted in a brew with no noticeable contribution from the sugar other than abv, body.

I've always noticed it however in the bigger Belgians and the amber to dark saisons that aren't overloaded with specialty malts

Anytime I've gone 10-20% candi sugar in the bill, I've at least gotten from a hint to a nice rounded flavor - combining a sugar mix that is mostly D-180, slightly smaller amount of D-90, then the rest of D-45 creates a REALLY nice complex profile for BDSs. D-45 in Saisons is a perfect replacement for Special B / Caramunich II combo. The Simplicity equivalent has only been slightly noticeable and I've gotten better results with the 260-275 range - a more noticeable citrus and light vanilla flavor than the D product

 

[BridgewaterBrewer]

The more fermentable the sugar the less flavor/mouthfeel that will be left behind. So if you put a lot in a Belgian ale you can taste it but to me it's a bit subtle. My point was that you can't detect it in a porter or stout the way that you could detect say maltose.

 

[SconnieBrewer]

So I recently stumbled across recipes for traditional English ales on the blog of brewing historian Ron Pattinson (http://barclayperkins.blogspot.com/) and am fascinated by this stuff. One thing that is pretty ubiquitous in these recipes is invert sugar. Appears there were countless manufacturers at the time, but basically four grades that were commonly used:
- Number 1 (30 EBC, or ~15 Lovibond)
- Number 2 (70 EBC, or ~35 Lovibond)
- Number 3 (130 EBC, or ~65 Lovibond)
- Number 4 (500 EBC, or ~255 Lovibond)

The milds, brown ales, double brown ales, etc were colored with "caramel", which although variable, was likely in the ballpark of 1400 Lovibond.

So, if I understand the chemistry and process correctly, the color of the invert sugar was dependent upon the degree of caramelization and not maillard reaction since I have not come across anything describing the use of an amino source during inversion.

I'm a bit confused about the "caramel" called for in these recipes for color. Anyone know how caramel colorant is produced? I'm guessing in a manner similar to the OP, with an amino source and significant maillard reaction in addition to caramelization in order to get enough color without scorching. So, would a 1400 Lov caramel colorant basically be "sugar #5" in the OP?

 

[BridgewaterBrewer]

Look up caramel color on Wikipedia. That will give you some leads.

 

[Vinfriend]

My first post!

I have a "dark strong" Belgian ale finishing fermentation (5 gal). The recipe has 3 lbs of D-180 (SRM=40). The point of my post is that the D-180 packaging indicates it has date sugar as an ingredient. How might date sugar factor into the target flavor profiles alluded to here and how might the home preparation process be modified to accommodate the use of it (and does it need to)? BTW, it is not clear if all the Candi Syrup, Inc. products have date sugar or just this one.

Thanks in advance

(I just found a reference to date sugar in this thread but nothing that addresses my Qs. It seems to me that it might be best to add the date sugar after taking the beet sugar syrup to 240F soft ball stage at least once and then bringing up the temp again. Probably will take some trial and error as I presume date sugar has a different scorch point due to impurities - any suggestions?)

 

[CZs]

My first post!

I have a "dark strong" Belgian ale finishing fermentation (5 gal). The recipe has 3 lbs of D-180 (SRM=40). The point of my post is that the D-180 packaging indicates it has date sugar as an ingredient. How might date sugar factor into the target flavor profiles alluded to here and how might the home preparation process be modified to accommodate the use of it (and does it need to)? BTW, it is not clear if all the Candi Syrup, Inc. products have date sugar or just this one.

Thanks in advance

(I just found a reference to date sugar in this thread but nothing that addresses my Qs. It seems to me that it might be best to add the date sugar after taking the beet sugar syrup to 240F soft ball stage at least once and then bringing up the temp again. Probably will take some trial and error as I presume date sugar has a different scorch point due to impurities - any suggestions?)

I can attest that I've utilized straight up date sugar alone from the very beginning, all the way to 300+ 4 times over (its a pain but if you are diligent with water it can work) with this DAP method and while it is probably a little too much burnt sugar, deep cocoa for my liking (seemed more intense than 180) it did contribute to a friend's porter very nicely, especially with coffee malt. Anyways - if you do a 1 part cane, 1 part dark brown, 1 part turbinado, 1 part date sugar up to 290 stage, cool down, and then back up to 270 (not necessary) you will get a very complex sugar that will go greatly with anything dark. I call it my D-75 - a nice inbetween that is great for Saisons in place of a caramel malt, or in conjunction with special b - especially if you like the more orange type saisons and/or malt-focused biere de gardes

 

[roastquake]

saving this for later

 

[Brewmex41]

I did a search within this thread and only found one post about using lactose sugar. Im curious if i should add some to this, or if i would be better off just adding the lactose sugar at bottling like i usually do and making the candi sugar as stated in the first post?

 

[Sippin37]

I would keep the lactose out of this. Add lactose to your recipe separately if you would like any unfermentable sugars in your brew. This candi sugar will no doubt get consumed by the yeasties.

 

[jnr1005]

Need some help here. Before I start, I checked my candy thermometer and it's accurate on boiling water. So I did 2 batches tonight aiming for a medium amber.

1st batch, heated water an sugar to 230 and added the dtp. Then heated to 185 to try to get between medium to dark. Ended up with a very dark syrup that has a burnt taste to the whole thing. Heated at medium on an electric stove entire time, did not stir until water addition.

2nd time figured I would do less heat. Same as above but heated to 170 then added water. Looks the same color, and tastes very similar with a less burnt taste. There are additional flavors, but the burnt sticks with me. When I say burnt taste...think burnt marshmallow.

Why am I getting super dark at both 170 and 185? To be honest, the dark color seems to develope at around 155 or 160 which seems way to low. The only time I am seeing amber ect, is around 140 -155. What am I doing wrong? I am sure this would be good in something, but to burnt taste for the golden draak clone I want to make this weekend.

 

[billl]

I would suspect you are heating too fast. Turn the burners way down and slowly let the temp rise as the water boils off. Depending on your burner, you may need to add spoonfuls of water to slow the process.

 

[jnr1005]

I would suspect you are heating too fast. Turn the burners way down and slowly let the temp rise as the water boils off. Depending on your burner, you may need to add spoonfuls of water to slow the process.

Thanks for the recommendation. I will try this tonight and go slower. (I thought I was going slow enough since it took 30 minutes or so...but I am up for whatever may fix this issue.)

 

[billl]

Just another thought - you might need a heavier pan/better conductor. The first time I tried, I used a super cheap pot. (Fear of wife killing me for ruining one of the good ones) It really didn't distribute heat well and I got some scorching. I'm sure I rushed it as well. I switched away from both at the same time, so I'm not sure which (or both) was key.

 

[psubrewer]

Any particular reason why this couldn't be done in the oven? Set it to your desired final temp with no risk of overshoot.

 

[jnr1005]

I think I found my issue...a combination of what was mentioned above.

1. I went to a smaller pot = thicker liquid and more coverage on the stove coil.

2. Because the pot now fit all the way on the big electric coil, I was able to heat on "low" and get a better sugar.

Only issue I still had was hitting temp. I must have cooked that darn sugar for an hour or more and it was slowly creeping, but I ended up pulling it at 150 because it was a deep dark amber color and I was afraid it would scortch if I keep it on. Great taste, but pulled at a much lower temp then a dark amber should be. Nice and thick too.

 

[mufflerbearing]

A accidentally added 3.5tspof dap To the 290. Will this be a problem?
It calls for 2.5

 

[mufflerbearing]

Too late. I rolled with it.

 

[toniejack]

Okay after two failed attempts last nite. Today i went to the local brew shop The Pumphouse and behold belgian candi syrup D-180. Beer Gods were looking out, so we then adapted the recipe to only an half a pound due to the color and adjusted the crystal to 10 instead of 80, i believe it called for. oh yeah this was my first all grain brew, cant wait to par-take.

 

[Stand]

I am curious if anyone has the vital stats (roughly) for this if I want to plug it into my brew software.

As of now I am just adding it as lbs of sugar with 93% yield for the 290 syrup.

I think that will probably do OK.

 

[TANSTAAFB]

I made this a couple of years ago for a dubbel recipe and it was fun but a pain in the ass to maintain temps w/o overshooting. Just got an induction heat plate with temp control and I can't wait to try this again knowing I can set the temp to nail different colors and flavors. Has anyone else tried this with an induction heat source?

 

[MarsColonist]

Anyone tried this with honey?

 

[BridgewaterBrewer]

It can be done with honey from what I've heard. If I recall correctly, clover honey is half fructose, which caramelizes about 20 or 30 degrees earlier than sucrose.

 

[Pastorken]

I think the whole point of this thread is to get complex flavors out of otherwise ordinary white cane sugar, so I don't know if these recipes would cross over to honey.
Personally, I love the flavors of honey in there natural state but I did find this and might have to give it a try!
http://honeyandspice.wordpress.com/how-to-2/caramelize-honey/

 

[MarsColonist]

I did go for it. Im planning to make a bochet (boiled honey mead), and I ve done it before without adding water or DAP. It was cotton blossom honey from 2013, and was pretty damn dark to begin with.

12# honey, 2L water and 60g DAP. I went to 270*F (small boiling for 2.5hrs), and I fear that was too far... it is now black. However, once I diluted it 1.112, it smells nice like brownies and dark fruit. However, once the sugar gets fermented out I suspect there will be a fairly strong bitterness, as in an unpleasurable amount. Also, the pH is 2.4 which will have to be adjusted up before I start the ferment.

If I was to do it again, I would skim off all the foam that forms so it doesnt burn. Id also not exceed 250F. It sat at 230*F for a long time (~1hr). Went from 225-270 in about 40 minutes. I cooled it down fast right when it hit 270. I only went higher than 250 to allow for the Malliard reactions to commence. I imagine the phos acid from the cleaved DAP is what dropped the pH so low.

 

[BridgewaterBrewer]

I think I would have stopped at 240 or so depending on what color and flavor were like at that point. Let us know how it turns out.

 

[Stand]

Yeah, I would love to hear how it goes.

It might not be standard to have bitterness in mead, but a little bitterness sure doesn't do beer any harm. Might be delicious.

Sent from my SPH-L710 using Home Brew mobile app

 

[orangehero]

This technique can be applied to honey, but you have be pay strict attention as it goes fast and is easy to burn.

 

[jtp137]

What would happen if you would cook the sugar under vacuum in a Sous-vide for a long period of time?

 

[Titan88]

Just did this tonight and decided to add a pic for comparison. Last night, I made caramel syrup (left). That shade, which I guess is around 60L, took about an hour of boiling. Using this method, the one on the right, in my opinion, got to the deep amber level. I already smells like Nutella. I'm getting nutmeg, brownies and minimal marshmallow, but it still hasn't cooled down yet. As soon as it cools, I'll edit this post with smell and tasting notes. Thanks to the OP for the method. I thought the ammonia smell that fills the kitchen when boiling would ruin the batch once it cools. IT DOESN'T!