2 x 2 16 gauge - OK for 15+ gallons?

[user 246304]

Great, thanks Sandy. 30 posts. Amazing, I've been, er, uh, crawling at something let's just say south of 30, lol.

Another beautiful make. Your guys' work blows me away. I love brewing and can't wait to get back in, but first this hurdle has to be cleared. Thanks for the ideas, guys.

 

[sandyeggoxj]

Good luck with your build!

If you see something amazing then you know that person spent MANY hours learning!

 

[day_trippr]

[...]Is that your chiller to the left? Is it a therminator, or another brand? And your pumps - I presume the outflow is facing upwards? Helps cleanly prime/avoid cavitation?[...]

The plate chiller is a DudaDiesel 30 plate long model, and the pumps are indeed oriented so their outputs are at 12 o'clock.
That latter bit is mostly to make priming easier and lessen the incidence of cavitation when the wort is boiling.

In case anyone is wondering, the chiller pivots out when needed while the pumps are mounted on sliding trays.
Everything can be retracted within the perimeter of the stand so I can lay it on its side and fit it inside my Durango...

Cheers!

 

[user 246304]

Again ingenious, trippr, thanks for the post. I've never actually seen a Therminator in life so I didn't have anything to compare it to. Very cool, your portability tweaks!

 

[user 246304]

I think it belongs here, thread's been asleep awhile, wonder if you guys can help me out.

The welder I intended using, a friend's recommendation, has turned out to be a flake. C'est la vie.

Barriers, as I've mentioned here or elsewhere. Our area's technical college does not allow taking individual classes - you have to be on a career track. Understandable, just wish I could remember what outlying T.C. did allow it.

So - under no illusions. I built my last brewery out of 1x1, I think it was, had high pressure Cajun's, and lived to tell about it. No gas, flux core mig. UGLY.

Under no illusions No. 2, that I suck mechanically and cannot imagine in a million years pulling off self-taught TIG.

Though I'd like stainless steel, this welder was pretty down on it, calling it unnecessary, and unnecessarily expensive. He said, "if you do nothing (the raw, uncoated mild 2 x 2 16 ga. steel), that thing will outlast you 20 years."

I know this guy is respected as a brewing welder. The brewing welder I knew and wanted - guy I knew from 20 years ago, when I was brewing - rents "my" guy's shop, for projects. So it's not expertise or ability, just never hear from him, like, literally, ever.

Anyway, long way around: Any thoughts, on welding this thing myself? Is it ill-advised for me to try to weld up stainless using MIG, and stainless wire, given my total lack of experience or ability? Flux core on the dreaded mild again?

I have nothing but respect for experienced and/or professional welders. An amazing art and technical form. Just trying to get brewing.

Thanks.

 

[sandyeggoxj]

Too bad you're not in AZ. I'd whip one up for ya out of stainless. I'd go solid core on the mig wire with ss wire and the proper tri-mix gas. That will be the best solution for you.

The mild steel WILL rust if left unprotected and will transfer that rust to your shiny stainless things. Your welder is right that stainless is expensive but buy once, cry once. Why did he talk you out of it? HE didn't want to build it?

 

[user 246304]

Yeah, I don't know what his deal is, but this just isn't how I work. Thanks a ton on the ss rec. I do have a bunch of books (ridiculous, I know - almost embarrassed to say "books" for something that requires skill and experience from among folks like yourself), so with what you say, hopefully I'll be able to pull the proper setup together.

I'll have to hunt for the ss. Online is obviously really expensive and I got pretty disparate pricing from two sellers here, over $100 apart. But I have time - practice, I think! And I'm gathering everything else.

Thanks again, Sandy. Must have put the idea of putting ss and mild together right out of mind, because thanks for that - yeah, I'd LOVE to screw up my beautiful Spikes over something so stupid...!

 

[sandyeggoxj]

Metal is a commodity and pricing is always changing. So keep that in mind. Depending on what size you build you'll need a couple 20' lengths. Usually the first one is $x, the second is $x/2 and so on. Pricing is ALL negotiable with steel suppliers so ask them what their discount schedule is. If I buy 3 lengths what will my cost per length/foot be?

For learning I would start here: https://www.youtube.com/user/weldingtipsandtricks

Also, buy a little extra material and do several practice joints. Will help with cutting and fitup and weld settings. Totally worth it.

 

[user 246304]

Great. Thanks, Sandy.

 

[ong]

You can also silver braze stainless. Decent fillet joints should be plenty strong.

 

[user 246304]

You can also silver braze stainless. Decent fillet joints should be plenty strong.

OK, as usual, going gonzo to pick up what I can. So been watching Welding tips - 5 part series on Mig alone. Thanks, Sandy, that guy's awesome and this is really fascinating.

I also watched Weld Fever's Mig welding square tubing, and learned a lot, in just one video.

So, in other words, don't laugh at the questions, guys. Ong, Fever makes the point that each joint surface has its own character, e.g., flared bevel where the rolled side meets the straight cut? And I think he seemed to be saying that along these edges, you need to slow it down and fill in more, because of the less-than-perfect match of the surfaces; right? Then the fillet and butt welds. Take this as a total noob trying to keep it straight, not questioning expertise. The reason I'm asking is just to double check if something like silver brazing is strong enough, given this? Or am I overthinking this?

Now - let me tie your suggestion, Ong, into a second thing. I fear I'll truly screw this all up. Even though it's mig, just because it's stainless, and I've never dealt with shielding gases before. If brazing can do it, man, I'd feel better about that.

The final thing - first time I built the rig, that 1 x 1 mild, I had a brewing supplier who was happy to rent to me at a substantial break, in trade for beer. This time, I've got zip in the way of equipment and am not sure I can rent all the incidentals. I know myself and know I could easily go nuts on yet another new thing, but SWMBO I think, would finally tilt. And if what I just read was right - with examples of Praxair charging couple hundred for the cylinder, and 350-400 for the gas (cheapest example, Airgas for a total of $240, cylinder inclusive), well...I wonder if I'm being ridiculous in basically starting to acquire a welding setup, when I'm lousy at it, and can easily outspend doing this compared to just finding a more responsive professional.

If I knew I could rent everything, practice enough to not make it look like modern art, and do it, all in, at a cost that didn't swamp my just paying a pro, then the bug in me is definitely lit. Seriously, always wanted to learn to weld and I know MIG is the easiest of all of them as a way in (right?). But so far, it's not looking good. Am I making any sense?

 

[wilserbrewer]

Go electric brewing and build a nice wood stand for many reasons.

JMO

 

[user 246304]

Thanks, but at least this particular attempt at a ship has sailed, Wilser.....

 

[wilserbrewer]

Ok, sorry for the poorly timed suggestion, good luck with the project.

Bolts and screws in lieu of welding?

 

[user 246304]

Ok, sorry for the poorly timed suggestion, good luck with the project.

Bolts and screws in lieu of welding?

Oh, no worries at all, Wilser. I didn't want to come off that way, that I was ungrateful for the suggestion. And if I come to another one for some reason, electric is definitely something I'm reading up on. Just have lots in place already for fire.

Funny you say that, on nuts and bolts, as I was just thinking of that this morning. But I think I was being goofy in how I was thinking about it, because I was thinking of taking square tubing, drilling and bolting it - which I think pretty much kills its strength, yes? I've seen people put a lot of weight on....I don't know what it's called. Metal struts dedicated to bolts?

I'm still keyed about learning to do this myself, per Sandy's supportive suggestion, just need to see how I might rent, and not own, all the equipment (don't know if that's possible with gas and helmet, for example). And read up last night on Ong's suggestion re: silver brazing. Would never have thought something like that could be that strong. Kind of mind-blowing, actually. The only reservation the book gives is that it's a definite no-no on butt welds. But for a bunch of fillets...giving me some pause and consideration.

Thanks all of you. I appreciate your time and options. We'll get there.

 

[user 246304]

Just queried our local Airgas on whether they could rent everything needed. We'll see.

 

[Toejam792]

Sounds like you got a plan in place but electric with a would table would be a lot cheaper if you diy. Sounds like your going to have over a grand in your stand when that's more than i have in 3 25 gal pots and my control panel. Also brewing a batch costs half as much when heating with electricity.

 

[user 246304]

Toejam, see above - I'm in, at this point, with flame. But thank you.

OK guys, well, somewhat heartened. It appears I might be able to not only rent the machine, but a larger gas cylinder as well. So, just a check on what might be reasonable as starting parameters for this metal. Again, 2 x 2, 16 gauge square tubing.

Short-Circuit Arc
Wire: .030 308LSi
Gas: Tri-mix of 90% He, 7.5% Ar, 2.5% CO2 (ideally); alternatively, 97% Ar, 2% CO2, 1% H2.
Flow: 40 CFH (If using a flowmeter for something other than He, conversion factor. E.g., for an Ar meter, set it to 12.6).
Voltage: 20
Amps: 125
Speed: 250 IPM
Stickout: Just under 1/2" or so

I "get" these parameters, but they're just drawn from my reading in some books, calculators online, etc. I know every machine is different, so nothing is going to mean much until I start trying it all out, just want to see if I'm wildly off. Thanks for you help.

BTW: If I do end up buying, I've only ever used Lincolns. Lincoln Pro 140C? Others in 110V?

Edit: Don't know if any have seen the build, but just an estimate on how much wire to buy. Would 2# do, roughly, for a project like this? Or I'm crazy, and 10# spool required? Thanks.

 

[sandyeggoxj]

2# should be plenty. I'm a miller guy and always have been so I can't advise on lincoln. I have been looking at the HTP tig boxes lately for a cheaper version of a miller dynasty. I buy accessories and consumables from HTP and I have had a wonderful experience time and time again.

Also, don't waste money on heavy mig gloves. Just get some leather gloves from your local hardware store. I prefer buckskin for dexterity but anything works. Just don't touch the hot $hit. Long sleeve cotton shirt will work fine. And if you weld overhead wear ear plugs!!! Nothing worse than a hot ball of metal rolling around in your ear.

 

[user 246304]

OK thanks, Sandy. Those parameters above, I just drew from general reading and, I think, a Miller calc from their site. Just beginning to read on makes now, including HTP, so thanks for the mention. I'll pay a visit to my local and tell them what I'm up to, see what we come up with.

 

[sandyeggoxj]

Let me know when you get your machine and we can talk weld settings and setup.

 

[user 246304]

Thanks Sandy.

 

[user 246304]

Guys, many would tell me just to get a life, but while I acquire everything but the frame, I do obsess over this. Reading the latest BYO and reading over their article on ready-to-brew, large scale systems, I'm reminded: Ruby Street is what appears to be all red-painted, mild steel frame, with a raised black grillwork of burners.

I have time. Many here decry using painted mild for the mess and upkeep it requires. Any comments on how this might apply to the Ruby Systems, as just one example? I'm not being flippant, I mean it sincerely - how are they or others using mild and paint dealing with the issues discussed herein? Asking about that red frame, and the black heating grills (not sure what either is, what materials or coatings used)? And thoughts on durability, given some of comments on what a PITA it can be?

 

[day_trippr]

"Burner grates finished in black with a 2000 degree industrial coating"

Flame temperatures of common gases and fuels:
Gas / Fuels Flame temperature
Propane in air 1980 °C 3596 °F

RS doesn't specify scale, so maybe they found an affordable 2000°C coating.
If not, I'd say that black coating will need periodic attention...

Cheers!

 

[user 246304]

"Burner grates finished in black with a 2000 degree industrial coating"

Flame temperatures of common gases and fuels:
Gas / Fuels Flame temperature
Propane in air 1980 °C 3596 °F

RS doesn't specify scale, so maybe they found an affordable 2000°C coating.
If not, I'd say that black coating will need periodic attention...

Cheers!

Missed that, thanks for the pickup, Trippr. Just made me think, that's all, seeing the red and black when all else was silver.....

Speaking of the article, another make, Synergy.

Discussions of exhaust sprang to mind, when I saw the front view. This is the side view, from their site. As far as I can tell, the vessels sit right on the frame, and there's no relief out the back with the shields. I'd be curious to hear from actual users. I completely accept now the need for exhaust, thanks to you and others. My keggle system was bad enough, I recall, but at least there was some space around the grills for venting.

 

[user 246304]

Let me know when you get your machine and we can talk weld settings and setup.

Came across this on a welding site. Welder recommended gas-shielded stainless flux core, which I didn't know existed. I'm sure I'm gushing about something you knew like 20 years ago, but "Fusion Flow."

Inweld Fusion Flow Stainless Steel Flux-Cored wires are designed for single or multiple-pass welds on many grades of austenitic stainless steels. Fusion Flow is designed to produce Xray quality welds using 100% CO2 or a mixed gas such as 75-80% argon plus 20-25% CO2. Fusion Flow has excellent deposition efficiency when used in the flat position on fillet welds of medium and thick plates.

Not sure if this is appropriate for 16 gauge yet - seems the thinnest wire is .035, and just don't know anything about this - but lot more appealing to rent (or buy) a straight CO2 bottle or rent an ar-CO2 blend, than dealing with He and its costs. Depending on how it pencils out, I might still want to find a way to weld this frame.

 

[user 246304]

I don't want to hijack another's thread any more than I have. See the wisdom of the rear-support dropped down, with the heat shield split and open towards the back. But I've never quite been comfortable losing that rear support - the vessel is resting on only 3 struts.

Just going through builds again and came across Lehr's pretty incredible setup. This pic shows his "shim" or "riser," I believe, so that his kegs have space to vent while keeping the diamond-style flame and vessel enclosure.

Basically, I'm asking - does that look strong enough, this L? It seems thin to me, for holding say 160 # of wort, but then I know zip about metal.

In case anyone doesn't know what I'm talking about re: the dropped rear style, pic from Brewer's Hardware included as well. Your thoughts much appreciated.

 

[user 246304]

Oh, %^&%$#. I just realized Lehr's clip there isn't to support a vessel, it's a finer point of his build, little clips to hold kegs in place. Man I find his setup impressive.

Alright, well, question reiterated, I guess.

Anyone share my concerns with the rear-venting style, a lack of support in dropping that rear member?

Anyone have a problem with the "standard" frame, diamond sections, with shims of some sort to raise vessels and allow venting? How would you or do you do it, raise your vessels?

Anyone think venting is unnecessary - just put the vessels directly on the "standard" frame, and go?

 

[sandyeggoxj]

First... I totally saw your thread on Miller and didn't connect it to you. Haha.

Second. If you need any laser cut and formed fancy brackets send me a pm. We can definitely get you something strong to hold the kettle if you need.

 

[user 246304]

First... I totally saw your thread on Miller and didn't connect it to you. Haha.

Second. If you need any laser cut and formed fancy brackets send me a pm. We can definitely get you something strong to hold the kettle if you need.

First "Oh no," as Jim Carrey said, "I've been found out."

Second, I completely spaced this is what you did, Sandi, custom fabrication. This is even when we have this thread. Consider me jealous. Forgive the stupidity, but what do you mean by "brackets?" I know most have seen these lovely drawings and photo, but basically, three basic ideas I'm wrestling with (and could use some input on, guys):

Whether ss or mild (probably ss):

1. The drawing you see attached. Gussets in the corner and the vessels rest on the members. No shims or risers - vessels rest directly on the flame. Is there a concern with venting and heat licking up the side of the vessel, heating valves, sight glasses, thermometers?

2. Same design, but some means to raise the vessels off the frame 1" or so; either a raised grill, or shims resting on the support members so vessels now have venting allowed beneath them all around.

3. This notion of a split heat shield, with the opening out the back, away from all "vital" parts of the brewhouse. This is an idea, from what I can see, promulgated by Brewer's Hardware.

I see it's wisdom - you've basically exhausted all heat out the back, like a jet. My concern with the design is that you've obviously lost the support of the rear member - which is now drop 2" down to rest on vertical members - and your vessel now rests only on the front and two side members. Gives me the heebie-jeebies a bit, to trust in that as a supporting structure. What do you think?

Which of these three do you support, and why?