2 x 2 16 gauge - OK for 15+ gallons?

[ancientmariner52]

It is unusual to get crystallization in mild steel. It requires carbon, and 1018 steel just doesn't have enough. The welding wire has a bit more, but I've never had problems welding outdoors in all weathers. Of course it doesn't get much below freezing here.

If you want to be sure, use a heat gun to preheat your metal, and to slow cooling of the welds.

If you want to be very sure, weld some sample pieces (coupons, in weldspeak) and try to break them. Maybe a good practice in any event, til you get used to the machine.

 

[Gadjobrinus]

OK, thanks, that helps a lot. I think we have some time, though it's coming so I'd best get on it. Your info is very much appreciated.

 

[sandyeggoxj]

How cold is "cold"? Do you use gas burners already? Just pop the ends of the tube over the gas to take the chill off if it is super cold. But honestly wouldn't worry about it.

Also, a wire wheel on a grinder should take the slag off in a jiffy. And then you can grind flush where you want flush metal.

I would just buy the metal you need and cut it yourself. Buy one of these: https://www.homedepot.com/s/abrasive+chop+saw?NCNI-5 and then sell it when you are done. You'll save money and learn while you're at it. Win-win!

 

[Gadjobrinus]

Sandy, nothing radical yet, just expected to snow next week. Say, low 30's to low 20's.

Thanks on the wire welder. Yesterday or the day before I watched - can't remember his youtube handle, but they're always good - but he's mig'ging up square tubing and doing exactly that, using a wire wheel to kick the slag off after each tack or bead. Final result surprised me how nice it looks, given flux core's rep. Of course, this is a pro, lol. Dumb question, but do you put the wheel on an angle grinder?

Finally, the MIG wire is .035 (flux core), of course. Any suggestions for voltage and wire speed? Again this is 14 gauge metal. 2 x 2. Machine is a Clarke Weld 130EN Fluxcore.

 

[ancientmariner52]

Just to enhance my rep as a pedantic a$$, I must point out that MIG means Metal Inert Gas. No gas = not MIG.

The deburring wheels I referenced mount on a pedestal or bench grinder.
Smaller ones are used on 1/4" die grinders. No reason you couldn't use an angle grinder, but mounting to the stubby 5/8" - 11 threads would be a problem, I think.

 

[Stealthcruiser]

Weld it!
20 degrees ain't too cold!
As mentioned, if you're worried about it, crank up a gas burner and preheat the joint area.

Or are you just looking for reasons to put this off.......Some more?..

 

[Gadjobrinus]

Just to enhance my rep as a pedantic a$$, I must point out that MIG means Metal Inert Gas. No gas = not MIG.

The deburring wheels I referenced mount on a pedestal or bench grinder.
Smaller ones are used on 1/4" die grinders. No reason you couldn't use an angle grinder, but mounting to the stubby 5/8" - 11 threads would be a problem, I think.

Hahahah - yeah, I know. But isn't it cooler to say "mig" than "flux core arc wire fed welding?"

This is the video I referenced. He's hand holding something, with wire (see e.g., 4:47, for example). Special wire specs then, it seems you're saying. Thoughts?

 

[Gadjobrinus]

Weld it!
20 degrees ain't too cold!
As mentioned, if you're worried about it, crank up a gas burner and preheat the joint area.

Or are you just looking for reasons to put this off.......Some more?..

Hahahha, no, just know I'm a noob, read all over place people freaking out, warning against "root weld failure," knowing my beads aren't going to be that great to begin with, and, oh what the heck, my right hand bears the scars of being a dumb 15 year old hot mopping roofer, summer in S. California, she was unbelievable, I was watching her and not the upcoming roof pipe, 700 F tar coats my right hand and.....not a fan of hot stuff coming down like rain.

THat 'splain enough?

 

[ancientmariner52]

Just go with the Baldwin Locomotive Works method of design: Never use 1/4" plate if 3/4" plate will fit.

 

[Stealthcruiser]

my right hand bears the scars of being a dumb 15 year old hot mopping roofer, summer in S. California, she was unbelievable, I was watching her and not the upcoming roof pipe, 700 F tar coats my right hand and.....not a fan of hot stuff coming down like rain.

THat 'splain enough?

Before retiring, I was making male and female stamping dies, out a material called Kirksite.......Which we poured @ 950 degrees!

I got a few holes to show......

 

[Gadjobrinus]

Just go with the Baldwin Locomotive Works method of design: Never use 1/4" plate if 3/4" plate will fit.

Hot plate and rivets? Bugs BUnny and foreman, that kind of thing?

 

[Gadjobrinus]

Before retiring, I was making male and female stamping dies, out a material called Kirksite.......Which we poured @ 950 degrees!

I got a few holes to show......

Fraternity of the fried.

 

[Gadjobrinus]

Oh, something I did forget about. I've heard it's not been around that long and it's technology is unproven. Still, couple guys I know said it's decent, if overpriced:

-my chugger mounting plates are ss. Haven't yet figured out how I'm going to mount my gas manifold which bugs me since the one I did 20 years ago was great - but can't remember. Oh, also, the ss heat shields from Brewer's Hardware (same place I got the pump mounts). Anyway, guys - issues with welding ss to mild, with flux core?

 

[ancientmariner52]

Quick research says it works with mild steel wire, but 309 flux core wire is better. Grab some scraps and try it. Years ago I was told you couldn't weld with coat hanger wire, but there were a lot of Harley, Triumph, and BSA motorcycles around here with cylinder fins that I repaired with bits broken off of VW cylinders, gas welded with aforesaid wire. Experiment. If it works, it ain't stupid.

 

[ancientmariner52]

Yeah, hot rivets, 18lb. hammers, coal smoke, brick chimneys, I gotta go take a cold shower now.

 

[Gadjobrinus]

Quick research says it works with mild steel wire, but 309 flux core wire is better. Grab some scraps and try it. Years ago I was told you couldn't weld with coat hanger wire, but there were a lot of Harley, Triumph, and BSA motorcycles around here with cylinder fins that I repaired with bits broken off of VW cylinders, gas welded with aforesaid wire. Experiment. If it works, it ain't stupid.

Thanks Ancient. He's got a 10 lb spool on and for some reason the label is on the back so I'll have to pull it again but it's not a brand I recognize. I'll just buy a small spool of the 309 for the ss-mild joints.

Just did a quick look and the 309LFC is about $12 more than the 308LFC. I'm used to thinking in terms of 308 wire generally. What's the benefit of the309 v. 308? (Also this was just a quick look - Blue Demon. I know the stuff is good, IIRC, but I'm still looking around. If you have a particular brand you recommend, much appreciated).

 

[ancientmariner52]

Nooo. I'm not a welder, just a guy who can weld. Sort of. Stuff don't break, I'm happy. I buy my wire at the local farm and ranch store. They got both kinds, steel and aluminuminum.

A quick google of welding ss to mild steel got a ton of results, no sense trying to filter it through me.

 

[Bowen1911]

About a year ago, I welded SS to mild steel because it was all I could find laying around in the shop I used regular steel mig wire. ER70-S6 I believe. Was two .500 square bars to raise a handle up a few feet, that a forklift would pickup and move. Payload was about 500 lbs, and it worked just fine.

 

[Dog House Brew]

Why not rent/buy a portable band saw? You can cut square and also miter with it. A square and some soapstone and your off. A cheap 4” grinder would be a must. You could grind a slight bevel on each mating/butting piece. If you were reasonably close to me, I’d put it together for you. Once you get your speed and temp set, should go well.

 

[Gadjobrinus]

OK, thanks guys. My more than generous neighbor set me up with his abrasive chop saw, as well as his flux core welder and 4" grinder. Dog house, you're talking about the bevel commonly used when butt plating thick steel pieces together, right? I don't mean exactly that, but that idea? And thanks for the offer of piecing it up - very kind, buddy. This weekend should be a good weekend, the mill and motor couple up beautifully, just need to finesse the base thickness on the mill for a better fit. And resolve the free rolling of the center roller. Other than that, it's chop, prep and weld away. Wish me luck, welding session No. 2 in 20 years!

 

[ancientmariner52]

Good luck! It's just like riding a bicycle, except for the parts that are completely different.

 

[Gadjobrinus]

Good luck! It's just like riding a bicycle, except for the parts that are completely different.

Awesome! Does that mean I have to take a header over the gun a few times, before I can lay a bead?

Guys, I just discovered something I've never seen. The welder has the ability to gas shield, but it uses "mini-tanks," tanks about the size of the small O2 cylinders or propane. There's just a small plastic tube out the back, and you literally just stick the tube into the "regulator," just a knob-valve, I think, and the tube holds by friction or self-sealing. Something like an air-blaster for cleaning your computer keyboard.

It would be awesome to gas shield this, even dual-shield if that's not hard to do on a (second) try. Have you ever heard of this? Any thoughts on where to get the small CO2 cylinders?

 

[ancientmariner52]

I've only used 25% CO2 + 75% Argon. I'm still using the same tank I picked up when I bought the welder. My local farm & ranch supply store where I bought the welder exchanges tanks, weekends and evenings included. Sorry, the only small CO2 bottles I've seen were for paintball use.

 

[ancientmariner52]

Very quick research sez:

CO2 is cheaper.

C25 (my mix) is easier to weld with. More stable arc, less spatter.

 

[Gadjobrinus]

Thanks ancient. I'd have to re-read it but I thought I recall something along the lines that pure CO2 does well in terms of penetration, but as you say, is an uglier weld. I wasn't successful in finding any of these weird "minis" of CO2 - my guess is that might be available in Britain, since this is a British make - so I'll probably just go ahead with straight flux core, no gas. Probably smarter to do that anyway, since I have no experience at all using shielding gas. At least I have one brew frame flux cored under my belt.

Thanks again.

 

[Stealthcruiser]

A friend of mine owns a muffler shop, and uses straight CO2 as a shielding gas.
He does some choice welds, not only on exhaust tubing, but on mild structural stuff as well, such as 2X2X16 gauge.......It works fine, just gotta' dial in your welder.

And that's a new one on me, a welder that is "gas capable", that won't take a standard CGA 320 fitting for the gas hookup.
The fitting mentioned is the "standard" for CO2 and for the "mix" gas on a mig, and may be the same for straight Argon.

Can you post a pic of the fitting?
You could be missing some pieces.

 

[Gadjobrinus]

Hey Stealth, good to know on the straight CO2. Here it is:

 

[Stealthcruiser]

Good looking tube.........

 

[Gadjobrinus]

Ain't it though?

 

[Dog House Brew]

Good looking tube.........

Spit out my beer! [emoji23] I’ve only ran 75/25 gas. Also at 16ga I doubt penetration will be an issue.

 

[Gadjobrinus]

Hi guys,

Limited contact here and behind on replies as I build the frame. Finally cut and starting to weld. In trying to dial in this welder, I am getting a lot of globular masses with little to no penetration. The helmet I have is a No. 11 from HD, and I can't see a damn thing, and that's going to have to change. I keep dialing up wire speed and monkeying with voltage, though I keep pulling the voltage back and upping the wire speed to get more juice to the metal. Aside from the fact I blow the breaker like every 20 seconds (and will have to find a place to weld - probably better anyway, as it's 13F today), diagnosis as to what I'm doing wrong, or what this kind of "bead" (I say that loosely) suggests?

This is 14 ga. mild 2 x 2. Thanks.

Edit: Just found out that Clarke is out of business, so calling them for an optimum parameter is out.

 

[Stealthcruiser]

Hard to say, without a pic.

So ya' switched from 16 ga., to 14 ga.?

Didn't want it to blow away in a breeze?.......


Edit: The breaker tripping is a game changer.........'Nother circuit needed, or another location.

 

[Gadjobrinus]

Hey Stealth, OK. Sorry for the lousy quality of the pic, couldn't get the camera to get a clear shot for some reason. Be kind - like I said, I can't see squat, or maybe that's just an excuse for how crappy I am, lol. The bead stopped because the circuit broke, like every half minute and yeah, I need to do this somewhere else. Probably a good idea anyway since it's so cold and why risk screwing up the welds, though I understand mild is far less of a problem in this regard.

No, I would have gone with 16 but 14 is all I could get around here in mild. Amazing the price differences. One place quoted me $200, this place let it go for $140.

 

[Gadjobrinus]

Might as well ask as well, my miter joints are not great. They line up at true corner angles, but somehow the matchup is off in terms of lengths. I don't get it. After day 1, my first time using a power metal saw and I forced the abrasive saw too often, my day of cutting the frame up went well, I took it easy and let the saw do the work. Yet there's this issue. If I line the corners up properly, the inside filet is off - basically, a gauge-measure or so of the metal off, so there's this weird lip. If I line up the inside filet, the outside corner is off, and sticks out. I have enough stock left over to do short pieces like this one more time, so I hope whatever I'm missing, you guys have an idea. Thanks.

 

[ancientmariner52]

One of the beautiful things about welding is that the joints don't need to be perfect.
Unless your gaps are over, say, 1/8", no problem. Clamp it up square, tack weld, and move on. Don't finish weld anything until you are happy with the overall fit and alignment and everything is tacked.

Then start welding the easy joints. As you gain experience, begin to fill in the bigger gaps. It works for ships and bridges, it'll work here.

 

[Gadjobrinus]

OK great, thanks ancient. Can I ask, about this "globular" thing above? My guess: too low a wire speed, too fast a travel speed; no need to mess with the voltage increase, which if I understand correctly merely increases the arc length and is not the way to bring additional juice to a given piece - it merely aids the wire speed and other techniques to make the arc smoother; yes?. As it is, with no information available in the manual or from the (former) company, I have the voltage set halfway - "2" out of "4."

I think I should try this - play with wire speed and slowing travel, and just burn through a coupon, to see what it is to heat a thing up - does this make sense?

 

[ancientmariner52]

Always keeping in mind that I am not a real welder, it sounds to me that the blobs you speak of indicate too much metal and not enough heat. The arc should be melting the base metal, and the wire fed just fast enough to fill the puddle as you move the arc along. The voltage is your heat control. Keep working on your coupons, changing one variable at a time. Hope this helps. If not I'm sure a pro welder will be along shortly.

You are correct in that voltage limits arc length, but that isn't why you vary it. Thicker metal needs more heat.

 

[ancientmariner52]

Any MIG welder instructions should apply. They all work the same.

 

[Gadjobrinus]

OK thanks, Ancient. Obviously I don't know anything - I may have misread it, it was a video from Weldfever, thought he said to forget voltage and increase wire speed to increase heat on a piece, but I'll have to check in. Thanks, too, on the idea on using other guides for this thing. I'll check Miller and see what they have to say.

 

[ancientmariner52]

Well, I find that about half of what I know is wrong. Just wish I knew which half.

Feeding metal faster to increase heat? That doesn't sound reasonable to me.

Here's some This Old House stuff you probably already know. Measure diagonally across the corners. If your joints are square the measurements will be the same.

A triangle of 3-4-5 proportion sides gives a 90°corner.