2 sacc rests @ 143f/158f --VS-- 1 @ 152f 60min

[klamz]

Thought this may spark a good discussion.

Does anyone have experience doing two sacc rests of say 143f for 30 min and 158f for 30min? What kind of outcome should you expect in the final beer compared to one rest of 152 for 60min

I did this kind of stepping with the delirium tremens clone and it came out great. Wonder what would happen if I didn’t and went with a 60min rest at 152f.

 

[Couevas]

What types of malts are you talking about?

Most of today's highly modified malts are just that; highly modified. There is usually no need for a step mash and you would probably end up with an identical product (or at least indiscernible difference) to that of a single rest at a middle-of-the-road temperature.

-C

 

[Schnitzengiggle]

I have yet to brew an AG batch, but my first attempt will be Labor Day weekend, it is my understanding that the only time a step mash is necessary is with undermodified malts, and those recipes with a large amount of high protien adjuncts such as wheat, oats, and rye which a protien rest would be beneficial, but not absolutely necessary.

 

[Droot]

I make my oatmeal stout with a 15 minute rest @ 145*F. Then I ramp up to 155? give or take. Last batch I got it up to 161, but I checked for conversion and it was done. I stir constantly while raising the temp. On its way up in temp, I could feel the mash loosen up. No stuck sparge and I got about 84% eff. The beer is good too.

1 lb malted wheat
3 pounds flaked oats
21.5 total pounds grain
No rice hulls.

 

[z987k]

no, rests at different temps will have a different amount of enzyme activity. In his mash, he'll be getting alot of beta activity then a lot of alfa activity as the first temp is low for alfa and the alfa will be working rather slowly, then the beta will start to denature with the 158 temp.

2 sacc rests has nothing to do with how well modified the malt is. A decoction has to do with undermodified malt, a protein rest does as well.

 

[Droot]

George fix from the Home Brew Digest used to talk about a 50*,60*, 70* step mash. Then he changed it to 60* 70* schedule with the best luck.

That would be 140*f, 158*f rests. It works for me. I have a fired 1/4 sanke mash tun. That is ALL the grain I can fit in it. 1 qt per pound of grain. 12 gallon batch.

 

[klamz]

no, rests at different temps will have a different amount of enzyme activity. In his mash, he'll be getting alot of beta activity then a lot of alfa activity as the first temp is low for alfa and the alfa will be working rather slowly, then the beta will start to denature with the 158 temp.

2 sacc rests has nothing to do with how well modified the malt is. A decoction has to do with undermodified malt, a protein rest does as well.

Yeah! from what I read i'd have to agree with you here............. It’s the protein rest that is malt dependant.

 

[Kaiser]

The 60/70C scheme is somewhat outdated. 63/70-72 works better since more of the starch will be gelatinized at 63 than at 60.

Multiple sacc rests are common for German beers while I prefer them over single infusion I haven't made an experiment that would allow me to compare them.

Kai

 

[pjj2ba]

The distinction is that with today's well modified malts one doesn't need to do a step mash, however, that doesn't mean there isn't a benefit to doing one. By way of anology, one can take perfectly good photos with a camera in full automatic (point and shoot) mode, but one can get even better photos by setting f-stop, exposure, etc. yourself. Sure it takes more time, but for some, the extra effort is worth it. Same for brewing.

On my system it is very simple to do step mashes. I've taken to doing a step mash for all of my beers except porters and stouts (I'll probably do it for them soon too). I did a step mash for my latest IPA and it is very full flavored and has a huge amount of body.

To directly address the original question. The composition of the wort (if one did a chemical analysis) from the step mash vs single infusion will be different. Then next question then is, will YOU notice a difference in the final product, and do you care.

 

[big supper]

From what I understand(which isn't very much!) doing multiple sacc temps will increase fermentabiliy.

 

[Kaiser]

From what I understand(which isn't very much!) doing multiple sacc temps will increase fermentabiliy.

Let me change this to "can increase fermentability". You can make fairly unfermentable worts with step mashing and you can also make fairly fermentable worts with a single infusion.

The dual vs. single sacc rest approach the control of fermentability differently. While in the dual sacc rest approach fermentability is controlled through the length of the maltose rest (the rest at 63F) in the single sacc rest it is controlled through the temperature of the rest. Both approaches aim at controlling the time b-amylase and limit dextrinase are active which in turn affects the fermentability of the produced wort.


Kai

 

[klamz]

Let me change this to "can increase fermentability". You can make fairly unfermentable worts with step mashing and you can also make fairly fermentable worts with a single infusion.

The dual vs. single sacc rest approach the control of fermentability differently. While in the dual sacc rest approach fermentability is controlled through the length of the maltose rest (the rest at 63F) in the single sacc rest it is controlled through the temperature of the rest. Both approaches aim at controlling the time b-amylase and limit dextrinase are active which in turn affects the fermentability of the produced wort.


Kai

So can we say that I accomplished high fermentability doing a dual sacc step with the delirium tremens recipe i mentioned? my OG was 1.068 and FG was 1.004 I pitched both wlp570(attent 78%) and S04(attent 75%). I would say there were a lot of fermentables to get that low of a FG. now if i did a single rest maybe that FG should be higher right? oh say 1.015 because the wlp570 at 78% attent would get me FG of ~1.015 from 1.068

Am I confused here or am i on the right track?

 

[klamz]

This is the DT clone i did.

Recipe Type: All Grain
Yeast: WLP570
Yeast Starter: 1L
Additional Yeast or Yeast Starter: S-04
Batch Size (Gallons): 3
Original Gravity: 1.072
Final Gravity: 1.006
IBU: 22 (Rager)
Boiling Time (Minutes): 90
Color: 4 (SRM)
Primary Fermentation (# of Days & Temp): 7 (see notes)
Secondary Fermentation (# of Days & Temp): 14 @ 32 deg
Tasting Notes: On-the-money clone for this award winning Belgian Strong.


Ingredients
-----------
Beet Sugar 1.00 lb, Sugar, Other
Pilsener (Belgian) 6.50 lb, Grain, Mashed

Styrian Golding 0.75 oz, Pellet, 60 minutes
Saaz 0.50 oz, Pellet, 15 minutes

Coriander Seed 7.20 grams, Spice, 10 min
Ginger 2.40 grams, Spice, 10 min
Paradise 2.40 grams, Spice, 10 min


Notes
-----
Recipe is from a Belgian who supposedly knew the brewmaster at Huyghe.

10 min @ 125F mash-in, 45 min @ 144F, 30 min @ 158F, 172F mashout. I'm frankly skeptical of the effectiveness of this mash schedule, but hey, it's how Huyghe does it, I'm told. 90 minute boil. 7 day ferment (pitch both yeasts), starting at 67F and allowed to rise as yeast desired. 14 day lager at 30F, followed by a 21 day warm bottle condition at 76F.

 

[Kaiser]

I was surprised when I saw your attenuation numbers. Even with step mashing you may have to do some work to get there. Then I found this in your recipe:

Beet Sugar 1.00 lb, Sugar, Other

Pilsener (Belgian) 6.50 lb, Grain, Mashed

The sugar content (which is 100% fermentable) is 13%, this is driving your FG down. If you want to raise the FG but keep the recipe you’ll have to mash the grain less fermentable than you usually would. Try skipping the 144F rest and go straight to a 160f rest. You may have to play with this, but I think the beer is supposed to be highly attenuated if that much sugar has been added.

Kai