12-12-12 Wee Heavy Recipe Formulation

[KingBrianI]

If someone wants to use Traquair House's ale as a template, the recipe is basically 99% Pale, 1% Roasted Barley, EKG or NB hops, and some kettle carmelization that occurs over the course of their two-hour boil. They ferment in oak barrels for 3-5 days and the oak they use is very old memel (prussia/lithuania). Therefore, any oak character you may perceive is not from wood itself. Aside, the jacobite ale has coriander in it.

Smoked malt is not something I like in my Scottish ales and I will be keeping it out. Same with 'oak' in the sense of aging. Mashing, boiling, and fermentation should give us all the intricate flavors we are looking for.

It's been a while since I had the Traquair House Ale but I definitely remember tasting character from the wood. It wasn't so much that tannic/oaky flavor you get from new wood, but more a kind of musty/cellar type of complexity. Without having access to any really old well-used oak, I'm not sure how to replicate that complexity, or if it's even possible. Maybe take some oak and let it soak in some sacrificial beer for several months before boiling it and adding it to the aging 12/12/12? It's crazy, but I'm kind of wondering too whether I could take some oak and put it in a bucket or bag or something with some peat, and leave it to sit outside in the elements for a few months. I'd of course boil it before adding it to the beer, but that might leach out the tannins while picking up some earthy/musty/peaty flavors. I've got a big chunk of seasoned american white oak I use for "another" hobby that I could cut a piece off of to experiment with.

 

[JLW]

It's been a while since I had the Traquair House Ale but I definitely remember tasting character from the wood. It wasn't so much that tannic/oaky flavor you get from new wood, but more a kind of musty/cellar type of complexity. Without having access to any really old well-used oak, I'm not sure how to replicate that complexity, or if it's even possible. Maybe take some oak and let it soak in some sacrificial beer for several months before boiling it and adding it to the aging 12/12/12? It's crazy, but I'm kind of wondering too whether I could take some oak and put it in a bucket or bag or something with some peat, and leave it to sit outside in the elements for a few months. I'd of course boil it before adding it to the beer, but that might leach out the tannins while picking up some earthy/musty/peaty flavors. I've got a big chunk of seasoned american white oak I use for "another" hobby that I could cut a piece off of to experiment with.

This makes me wonder if you could smoke the oak? Just like you would meat. I sometimes use cedar planks for my salmon on the grill. The cedar plank always ends up nice and charred.

 

[azscoob]

When my oak barrel is not filled with beer it is filled with water to keep it from drying out. the water is treated with citric acid and sodium metabisulphite to keep it critter free. this has greatly mellowed the barrel, and there is very little whiskey flavor left at this point. I hope to make use of it for this beer.

 

[bierhaus15]

Yeah, I didn't mean to say the beer was devoid of wood flavor, just not the oak type one gets from adding chips or cubes. I always associated the oak character with, as you said, old wood. Like a really old canoe paddle or pair of snowshoes, if that makes any sense. I also have access to a ton (literally) of all sorts of white oak from all over the place. We have a wooden-boat builder in the family and I'm sure I could get some for experimentation. I was originally thinking of adding some aged oak over the course of a few days of fermentation... though how feasible is it to replicate the flavors derived from 200 year old brewing vats?

 

[BenS]

Where would someone get traquair house ale yeast?

 

[azscoob]

Where would someone get traquair house ale yeast?

My recipe I found calls for Wyeast 1728 Scottish ale yeast

 

[BenS]

My recipe I found calls for Wyeast 1728 Scottish ale yeast

Ok. I thought that someone was implying that traquair yeast was sold by wyeast or white labs under a different name.

 

[commonsenseman]

I think this one is going to be a sort of "your mileage may vary" type of brew for most of us. As long as we can agree on the base type, the hop type, the gravity and the process, I think we're pretty much there.

Base, let's mostly agree, Maris Otter.

Hops, British. Target, NB, EKG.

Yeast: English or Scotch (whichever the brewer wants, from US-04 to White Labs British to Wyeast 1724)

OG: 1.090 - 1.110

Process: Caramelize 2 gallons first runnings. Boil 2-ish hours. Hop addition times are brewers choice.

Can we agree on that?

I can dig it.

It should keep us all on the same track, but allows enough freedom that they'll all turn out different. I'll be doing a really small recipe, probably 2.5 gallons, unless I happen to get different equipment by the time this starts.

 

[Golddiggie]

I'm thinking about going the opposite direction and seeing how much grain I can cram into my keggle mash tun. The other 'issue' is I'll probably need to get either a 15 or 20 gallon kettle to boil this batch. It really depends on how large I make the batch, or what I want my post boil volume to be. Factoring in loss to yeast trub and such, I figure I'd lose a gallon, from a ~10 gallon batch. Which means I need 11 gallons post boil in order to hit the volume to bottle/keg I want. Besides the bottle swap amount needed, I have a friend that loved my first batch, and wants some when I brew it again.

Trying to figure this out is starting to make my head hurt... I think I'll see if one of the brews on tap will help with that. :rockin:

 

[Cromwell]

I'd like to join in on this, but I'm a nub and don't really know how it works. A year from now those of us who are still around, and still have some of this left can exchange? What if mine sucks because I'm pretty new? What if I say I want to do it, but a year from now I'm moved into a small apartment and can't store the beer?
Also, is it ok to wait a couple of months to do this, when the ambient temperatures will be lower so I can ferment down around 60, since I don't have a beer fridge?
And our recipes can be slightly different? Like, I'd prefer Golden Promise to Maris Otter?

 

[MDVDuber]

The Recipe is still in progress. If all H&ll breaks loose and your batch is a failure - you are forgiven - and keep your eyes open for the #-#-# batch for next year to try again.

 

[BenS]

I'd like to join in on this, but I'm a nub and don't really know how it works. A year from now those of us who are still around, and still have some of this left can exchange? What if mine sucks because I'm pretty new? What if I say I want to do it, but a year from now I'm moved into a small apartment and can't store the beer?
Also, is it ok to wait a couple of months to do this, when the ambient temperatures will be lower so I can ferment down around 60, since I don't have a beer fridge?
And our recipes can be slightly different? Like, I'd prefer Golden Promise to Maris Otter?

That all sounds fine. RDWHAHB.

 

[statseeker]

That all sounds fine. RDWHAHB.

I'd like to join in on this, but I'm a nub and don't really know how it works. A year from now those of us who are still around, and still have some of this left can exchange? What if mine sucks because I'm pretty new? What if I say I want to do it, but a year from now I'm moved into a small apartment and can't store the beer?
Also, is it ok to wait a couple of months to do this, when the ambient temperatures will be lower so I can ferment down around 60, since I don't have a beer fridge?
And our recipes can be slightly different? Like, I'd prefer Golden Promise to Maris Otter?

We need to agree on a base and so far MO is winning. That much HAS to be agreed upon. The rest, there's wiggle room but the essense of the recipe and process has to be in stone. If we want total agreement, we wont find it most likely. I would say put it up to a vote, but I have a feeling MO would still win.

As far as what happens if stuff hits the fan? I would say ferment at ambient temperature. I have a feeling the brewers of old didnt have refrigeration to keep their beer at the perfect temperature. They may have had cellaring, but that was a different day. Plus it's gonna be aging for over a year. I wouldnt keep my fermenting fridge tied up for a year or more with one beer. Keep it in the coolest closet in your place and ignore it. RDWHAHB

 

[smokinghole]

Since there seems to be so much choice for minor variation I say we make some minor concessions.

Base can be Maris Otter or Golden Promise. Sure the flavor will be different but that might add a nice variety. I like the idea of a small amount of roast barley. Dark crystal would be a good addition but I think with the boiled down runnings and long boil will more than make up for the dark crystal if we leave it out.

The hops I feel should be EKGs. Of course any UK hops would be proper.

I want to use a yeast that will throw off smokey phenols at low temps. I personally do not want to add smoked malt. That's where I think there needs to be a decision made.

Do we add a small amount of smoked malt or just use the proper yeast at the proper temps to get the smoke flavor? I know yeast can make the smoke flavor. Granted it is probably the brett but in my 11-11-11 Old Ale there is a smokiness.

If no one wants to agree on the smoked malt vs no smoked malt then I suggest we split into two groups. Each half can trade among themselves or between both groups if the individual wishes. That might actually be interesting to do for a comparison.

 

[JLW]

I'm in agreement with no smoked malt and using the yeast at proper temps to get the smokiness.

 

[KingBrianI]

Since there seems to be so much choice for minor variation I say we make some minor concessions.

Base can be Maris Otter or Golden Promise. Sure the flavor will be different but that might add a nice variety. I like the idea of a small amount of roast barley. Dark crystal would be a good addition but I think with the boiled down runnings and long boil will more than make up for the dark crystal if we leave it out.

The hops I feel should be EKGs. Of course any UK hops would be proper.

I want to use a yeast that will throw off smokey phenols at low temps. I personally do not want to add smoked malt. That's where I think there needs to be a decision made.

Do we add a small amount of smoked malt or just use the proper yeast at the proper temps to get the smoke flavor? I know yeast can make the smoke flavor. Granted it is probably the brett but in my 11-11-11 Old Ale there is a smokiness.

If no one wants to agree on the smoked malt vs no smoked malt then I suggest we split into two groups. Each half can trade among themselves or between both groups if the individual wishes. That might actually be interesting to do for a comparison.

I agree there should be some wiggle room left in the recipe for individual preferences. I, for one, will be using Golden Promise as the base, and not adding smoked malt. There can be an option for the trade where each person can register as a smoked or unsmoked beer, and each person can list their preference to receive either smoked, unsmoked, or both in the trade.

For the oak aging, that can also be something up to the individual brewer. I've been thinking more on how I would want to imitate old wood, and I think what I'm going to do is buy a bottle of neutral spirit (whether it is vodka, corn liquor or whatever depends on what the store has) and I'll toast and char a bit of seasoned white oak and throw that in the liquor to sit for a few months. That should get a lot of the tannins and sugars out. I'll then put the stick outside in a shaded/wooded area and let it season there for another couple months before collecting it, boiling it, and throwing it in the secondary with my 12/12/12. Crazy? Maybe.

 

[KingBrianI]

Something else I'd kind of like to vent about for a minute. A lot of people add their input to these collaboration recipes and the recipes get pulled several different directions. Finally something is settled on that is a compromise between dozens of people, but then when trade time comes around, only a handful participate. In the 10/10/10 swap I organized, I think there were 5 people trading. The 11/11/11 swap still hasn't been organized and it looks like if I don't do it, no one will. So I'll organize that swap and we'll see how many participants we have, but I can assure you it will be much much less than the number of people who tried to sway the recipe.

 

[BenS]

I want to use a yeast that will throw off smokey phenols at low temps. I personally do not want to add smoked malt. That's where I think there needs to be a decision made.

Do we add a small amount of smoked malt or just use the proper yeast at the proper temps to get the smoke flavor? I know yeast can make the smoke flavor. Granted it is probably the brett but in my 11-11-11 Old Ale there is a smokiness.

I agree with not adding smoke malt. This should be a fairly simple recipe.

 

[BenS]

Something else I'd kind of like to vent about for a minute. A lot of people add their input to these collaboration recipes and the recipes get pulled several different directions. Finally something is settled on that is a compromise between dozens of people, but then when trade time comes around, only a handful participate. In the 10/10/10 swap I organized, I think there were 5 people trading. The 11/11/11 swap still hasn't been organized and it looks like if I don't do it, no one will. So I'll organize that swap and we'll see how many participants we have, but I can assure you it will be much much less than the number of people who tried to sway the recipe.

That sucks. But with something like this, it seems to be the nature of the beast. At the very least it's fun for individuals to come together and formulate a recipe together and then taste the end results. And, I might like it if only half dozen or so participated in the swap, less shipping costs/person. I do understand your frustration though KBI.

 

[KingBrianI]

And, I might like it if only half dozen or so participated in the swap, less shipping costs/person. I do understand your frustration though KBI.

Each person will only send to three other people no matter how many participants there are. At what can be over $20 shipping per package, that is still a lot of money.

 

[bottlebomber]

Each person will only send to three other people no matter how many participants there are. At what can be over $20 shipping per package, that is still a lot of money.

$20 per parcel? How much does one usually ship in these things?

 

[Ezekielsays]

Wow. I had no idea there were so few people actually doing the trade. I had this image of hundreds of people shipping and sipping great beers.

As for the recipe, my vote is on golden promise, no crystal, no smoke, a little roasted , and the oak I'm ambivalent on. Granted, I'm inexperienced and have only the slightest idea what I'm doing, so ignore my opinion as you see fit. No hard feelings.

 

[KingBrianI]

$20 per parcel? How much does one usually ship in these things?

I usually ship 6-8 12 oz. bottles to each person. That includes 2 of the x/x/x beers and then a sampling of other beers I've made I think they might enjoy. I'm in NC so if I ship to WA or CA it is usually over $20. If I'm shipping to somewhere closer it is probably $15 or so.

 

[BenS]

Each person will only send to three other people no matter how many participants there are. At what can be over $20 shipping per package, that is still a lot of money.

Yea. $60 shipping probably deters most people from participating. I wonder if you made it so that everyone had to provide some sort of feedback on the they beers received, if that would help with participation. It could be as simple as 'hey man, really enjoyed your beer last night. Thanks for shipping it' or as complex as a BJCP score sheet. That way you're not just shipping beers to random people, never to hear about it again. Just an idea.

 

[KingBrianI]

You can look here to see what kind of critiquing happened for the 10-10-10. Getting in-depth feedback on your beers is always great and everyone did a really good job on the 10-10-10 swap. In some previous swaps there were several people who didn't post any reviews. Or posted something like "I tried your beer last night. I was wasted and can't really remember much about it but it was good." which is disappointing. I think it should be a requirement that if you choose to participate, you agree to review the beers you receive. It's no fun to send someone beer only to never hear from them again.

 

[BenS]

I agree KBI. It helps if you really like reviewing/evaluating beers as well.

 

[bottlebomber]

$60 into this thing doesn't scare me... I also love the idea of sharing other beers than what's on the agenda

 

[KingBrianI]

I agree KBI. It helps if you really like reviewing/evaluating beers as well.

Yeah, I enjoy tasting other's homebrew as much as getting feedback on my own. It's fun to try to pull out ingredients and flavors from a beer someone else made. And most of them are really great and I've gotten many good ideas from trying them. And hopefully I'm able to provide some suggestions when a beer has flaws to help the brewer improve. It's a win-win, but I realize not everyone wants to evaluate a beer when they could just drink it.

 

[azscoob]

I will be using Golden Promise, EKG, and roasted barley, (unless other ingredients find their way into the base recipe) I would like to keep it as simple as possible.

Tossing the idea around of making two 5 gallon batches, one made with the first runnings caramelized on the burner and then aged in the oak barrel.

The second batch caramelized over an open fire and simply kegged for aging.

I think the same base recipe used for both but post mash go in different directions would be a fun project that should yield vastly different beers, both of which would qualify as a 12-12-12 beer.

 

[KingBrianI]

I will be using Golden Promise, EKG, and roasted barley, (unless other ingredients find their way into the base recipe) I would like to keep it as simple as possible.

Tossing the idea around of making two 5 gallon batches, one made with the first runnings caramelized on the burner and then aged in the oak barrel.

The second batch caramelized over an open fire and simply kegged for aging.

I think the same base recipe used for both but post mash go in different directions would be a fun project that should yield vastly different beers, both of which would qualify as a 12-12-12 beer.

Sounds great, do it!