1/4" beer line with oxebar keg in regular fridge - Length/foam issues

[Matheos]

So I recently got myself a 4L oxebar keg as it is the only keg size I can fit in my apartment fridge. With it I got 12m of 1/4" (6.3mm) ID gas/beer line with duotight fittings for that size.

I just tried pouring my first half glass and it is pretty much all foam, of course logically, as I have not really considered the beer line length..

Looking at calculators online they tell me with my ID and the fact that I pretty much have no vertical height difference keg -> tap (picnik tap) I would be looking at almost 8-10m for my beers served at 10psi... That is quite a lot of tubing to fit into a small fridge. Any suggestions on how to solve this without swapping the beer line for a smaller ID? I can get some height difference I guess by keeping the tap higher up while serving, but having bought the line and the connects on aliexpress, I would rather use of the 12m I have than buy new connnects and lines...

 

[DuncB]

Honestly buy some smaller id line and the connectors. Kegland do a 3mm id line and ball locks etc.
You can't change the laws of physics.
If you have most of the beer line out of the fridge and you stand on a stepladder to pour, you'll be drinking warm beer and have foaming because of that.
There are pages of woes on this and other forums getting mini kegs to work well.
Do make sure that your starting vols are really what you think they are, the small volume of beer and headspace makes them very dynamic in their response.

 

[mac_1103]

So I recently got myself a 4L oxebar keg as it is the only keg size I can fit in my apartment fridge. With it I got 12m of 1/4" (6.3mm) ID gas/beer line with duotight fittings for that size.

First of all, where did you get a 4L oxebar keg? Not in the US I assume. Second, what made you decide to use 6.3 mm tubing for the beer line? Most people go with that for the gas line and 4 mm (or 3 mm) for the liquid. Or just use 4 mm for everything.

 

[Matheos]

First of all, where did you get a 4L oxebar keg? Not in the US I assume. Second, what made you decide to use 6.3 mm tubing for the beer line? Most people go with that for the gas line and 4 mm (or 3 mm) for the liquid. Or just use 4 mm for everything.

Aliexpress official Kegland account has 4L kegs, and other retailers are getting them in Europe now too. Saw my local online store was getting them now too, "soon".

Honestly, regarding the tubing, I just made myself a kit with the connections available from the store and hose that went with it. Did not even know that ID made any difference until now... Really never kegged before so :/

Honestly buy some smaller id line and the connectors. Kegland do a 3mm id line and ball locks etc.
You can't change the laws of physics.
If you have most of the beer line out of the fridge and you stand on a stepladder to pour, you'll be drinking warm beer and have foaming because of that.
There are pages of woes on this and other forums getting mini kegs to work well.
Do make sure that your starting vols are really what you think they are, the small volume of beer and headspace makes them very dynamic in their response.

I was afraid of hearing that... Messed up when not researching the importance of the ID before ordering my stuff. What about flow reducers?

 

[mac_1103]

What about flow reducers?

They work, but can be a little tricky to dial in. I've gotten OK results with a Kegland flow control QD connecting a minikeg directly to a nukatap mini (here's a package deal for illustrative purposes only; there are lots of vendors who carry these). I've also gotten good results with the Picnic Tap 2.1 on my minikegs (same disclaimmer as above). Other members have reported somewhat different experiences, so I can't promise that either one will necessarily work well for you.

 

[DuncB]

Not a fan of the flow ball locks,

 

[Matheos]

Just tried running the beer through all of my remaining 1/4" tubing, about 10m or so. Still foamy af, no matter how carefully I try the picnik tap. Also tried going below 10psi but no change.. The height difference, as mentioned, close 0 so not winning anything there. Looked into the flow control ball locks too and seem to be slightly harder to come by AND they only make them for 8MM OD line so I still would need a new beer line...

I will need to get shopping I guess, still expected somewhat of an improvement with such a long line but apparently not

 

[Broken Crow]

Just tried running the beer through all of my remaining 1/4" tubing, about 10m or so. Still foamy af, no matter how carefully I try the picnik tap. Also tried going below 10psi but no change.. The height difference, as mentioned, close 0 so not winning anything there. Looked into the flow control ball locks too and seem to be slightly harder to come by AND they only make them for 8MM OD line so I still would need a new beer line...

I will need to get shopping I guess, still expected somewhat of an improvement with such a long line but apparently not

If you have to go shopping anyway and you want the shortest lines you can get, you can go with the 3mm ID/6.35mm OD EVABarrier. That's what I put in my kegerator; 37" no foaming. The difficult part is finding push-fittings to connect it to standard 1/4" MFL ball-lock disconnects, which I got around by swaging over 1/4" SS swivel-nuts.
I think Kegland might have finally made some of their own 'flow-control' or other low-profile ball-lock disconnects with the 6.35mm push-ins, but I just don't like any disconnects but genuine CM Beckers.
You can read a how-to here: https://www.homebrewtalk.com/thread...mm-monotight-connector-duotight-shank.730515/

 

[mac_1103]

Just tried running the beer through all of my remaining 1/4" tubing, about 10m or so. Still foamy af, no matter how carefully I try the picnik tap.

I would at least consider the possibility that there is an issue other than line length before I just started throwing money at the problem. 10m of 1/4 inch line shouldn't be horrible if everything is cold. Then again "foamy af" isn't exactly a quantitative measure, so maybe it is at least a little better than what you started with?

 

[Matheos]

If you have to go shopping anyway and you want the shortest lines you can get, you can go with the 3mm ID/6.35mm OD EVABarrier. That's what I put in my kegerator; 37" no foaming. The difficult part is finding push-fittings to connect it to standard 1/4" MFL ball-lock disconnects, which I got around by swaging over 1/4" SS swivel-nuts.
I think Kegland might have finally made some of their own 'flow-control' or other low-profile ball-lock disconnects with the 6.35mm push-ins, but I just don't like any disconnects but genuine CM Beckers.
You can read a how-to here: https://www.homebrewtalk.com/thread...mm-monotight-connector-duotight-shank.730515/

Looks like the 3mm line is quite hard to come by for me. Can't even find it on Aliexpress. My current plan is the following which I manage to get all from one place:

That should cover everything I need to replace. the picnik tap goes into the "pluto gun" (never head that before) and the rest is obvious. Hopefully this would help

 

[Matheos]

I would at least consider the possibility that there is an issue other than line length before I just started throwing money at the problem. 10m of 1/4 inch line shouldn't be horrible if everything is cold. Then again "foamy af" isn't exactly a quantitative measure, so maybe it is at least a little better than what you started with?

Agreed. I did expect a bigger difference. Never used these pic nik taps (or any tap for that matter) before so not sure how you are supposed to use them but I could pore a glass full and demonstrate in a picture if that helps. Sligtly better yes but I did expect more of a dramatic improvement going from below 1m to around 10m, albeit it having no height difference....

 

[mac_1103]

Well if a one meter line gave you all foam and ten meters is at least giving you some beer under the foam then you probably can at least rule out something like a leaky dip tube pulling CO2 straight from the head space when you try to pour.

BTW, a pluto gun is a type of hand held beer faucet. But I guess that adapter will work to connect any 8 mm OD line to any 6.3 mm OD line.

 

[Matheos]

Well if a one meter line gave you all foam and ten meters is at least giving you some beer under the foam then you probably can at least rule out something like a leaky dip tube pulling CO2 straight from the head space when you try to pour.

BTW, a pluto gun is a type of hand held beer faucet. But I guess that adapter will work to connect any 8 mm OD line to any 6.3 mm OD line.

Interesting name for the adapter... Think it is the store's own made up name tbh. I would use it to connect my picnik tap to the hose. I have one like it already but for 9.5mm hoses.
And yea, I don't even have a floating dip tube so can't be that I simply got one of these,

. They are diptubes but not floating.

Lastly, I would say that even 1m gives me beer if I wait long enough haha. Did have to wait for it here too with 10m. I will do another pour and take a pic instantly to demonstrate. I could also add that I had this under 30psi of pressure for 25 ish hours afterwhich I took it down to 10psi for another 24 hours before trying my first pour. I belive this was called the "burst carbonation" method. I don't know if I am a bit early and if that makes any difference from a foaming perspective, also with all the foam I guess all carbonation is gone anyway when it hits the glass..

 

[Matheos]

So this is a pour through the 10m

Already now a min later it has settled quite a bit but would not call it too much carbonated anymore at this point (if it ever was).

Here is the full setup

Serving pressure 10psi and temperature in the fridge is around 5 deg C. I have a thermometer in there but it is super sensitive and rises instantly so need to check it a bit later. Might just well be a bit more than 5

 

[tracer bullet]

Hmm. When I use lines (versus a flow control tap) I'm on the 6mm EVA Barrier's. I run about 15' of line, serving with 12psi. Through a picnic tap it's always been perfect.

As an FYI, picnic taps have to be full open, if you try to throttle it (half open) you'll get foam.

Seems like you're on the right track, but as a data point for you...

 

[Matheos]

Hmm. When I use lines (versus a flow control tap) I'm on the 6mm EVA Barrier's. I run about 15' of line, serving with 12psi. Through a picnic tap it's always been perfect.

As an FYI, picnic taps have to be full open, if you try to throttle it (half open) you'll get foam.

Seems like you're on the right track, but as a data point for you...

Hmm interesting point about the tap.. I have definately not been using it fully open as I was sure that would cause it to flow the fastest, thus causing most foam? But maybe not then... I should try "letting it rip"

 

[tracer bullet]

I should try "letting it rip"

Absolutely. It will come out faster of course, but it doesn't do whatever thing it does that turns it foamy.

 

[day_trippr]

Wow.
The pour quality difference between a cracked open faucet and a fully open one should be transformative - I don't think the former can even be done at normal dispensing pressure without a total foam fest...

Cheers!

 

[Matheos]

I did try it, full blast but still foam fest..Though perhaps better. Also put the keg on the floor to get some height difference. .. But I still get more than half the glass of foam which eventually evens out to about half a glass of liquid after some time, very flat though.

Probably does not really help that I did so many tests, bringing it out of the fridge, that the temperature probably rose quite a bit and I still honestly see temps close to 10 C next to my keg. Not sure if I can blame that though, just a comment.
So many variables here that I don't rly know what to try next besides the obvious, smaller tubing and perhaps flow control ball lock.

Would love to know if my burst carb even succeeded or if it is overdone and that's why it foams.. Should just have done the set it and forget it method for my first try

 

[mac_1103]

I still get more than half the glass of foam which eventually evens out to about half a glass of liquid after some time, very flat though.

I could also add that I had this under 30psi of pressure for 25 ish hours afterwhich I took it down to 10psi for another 24 hours before trying my first pour.

I'm not an expert on burst carbonation, but I think 30 PSI for 24 hours is for a five gallon keg and smaller volumes will carbonate faster. So your problem might be overcarbonated beer. Or not.

 

[DuncB]

You can leave the keg in the fridge. The line should fit in the door seal and it's probably going to shut. If it won't stay shut just use some tape or prop something against the door.
I sourced some non eva barrier beer line that has 2mm internal tubing. It works well for my higher pressure beers, I have to use an adapter for 4mm external to the 8mm external EVA short length into the ball lock and tap connector.
But on your pressures and tap 30 cm above the keg its about 15cm of beer line.
https://brewingcalculators.com/beer-line-length/

Oxidation of such a tiny amount of beer in the line is not a real concern for me.

 

[tracer bullet]

Would love to know if my burst carb even succeeded or if it is overdone and that's why it foams.

Well, we're all going on the idea that it's truly at the pressure you say. If it's way over then yeah you'll have issues.

You could shut the tank off but leave the hose connected tot he keg and let it sit a day. The gauge will read whatever the keg itself is at. See if it climbs.

Warm hose won't help if the keg itself is cold. Nor if both are warm actually. Agree to put the whole thing in the frig.

The gist is simple, the beer is carbed, and it'll foam if it comes out too fast. Usually a small line, a long line, or both introduces enough of a restriction to slow down the flow and have it pour well. So something is off. It seems your line is big but is long enough. That leaves the beer too pressurized or an issue with your tap.

 

[day_trippr]

The gauge will read whatever the keg itself is at. See if it climbs.

fwiw, if there is a check valve between the regulator and the keg, that might not work as expected...

Cheers!

 

[Matheos]

Thanks for all the great tips! I will try to summarize my setup again so we are all on the same page regarding gauges and vales etc.

I have my keg + tank in the fridge at all times. so they are cold (7 C with regular thermometer next to the keg)
The gas tank is a regular sodastream bottle with a Mini core 360 Actuator Regulator mounted to it, this has gauge and it is the only one I have.
From the regulator goes a short tube to the keg gas in post, this is connected at all times.

To burst carb I had it in the fridge at 30psi for 24hrs and then dropped it to 10psi for another 24hrs before trying my first pour.
It may well be overcarbonated, I have never tried any method before for carbonating. Though this was the tip I got from the guys at "Grain to glass" on youtube when specifically asking about the 4L oxebars which they also use:

With all this in mind, will "shutting the tank" and leaving it for a day have any impact on my gauge? Since it is on the gas tank itself, will it even show my "current pressure" inside the tank? - I think this may be my best shot at localizing overpressured keg...
Another thing that I unfortunately cannot know is if the gauge is accurate, as I have never used it before and don't have another to calibrate with. But I would hope it is close enough as it is brand new..

 

[mac_1103]

Unfortunately, just because you mentioned the size of your keg doesn't mean that the people who gave you the burst carbonation advice considered that factor.

Here is the first burst carb reference that I found.

This is from Brulosophy: "Since time to carbonate is also a function of volume, smaller amounts of beer carbonate quicker"

Also, some random guy on reddit says that he burst carbonated 10 liters in 9 hours at 30 PSI.

I think your beer is overcarbonated.

 

[tracer bullet]

With all this in mind, will "shutting the tank" and leaving it for a day have any impact on my gauge? Since it is on the gas tank itself, will it even show my "current pressure" inside the tank? - I think this may be my best shot at localizing overpressured keg...

Typically there are 2 gauges, one in the 100's of psi (1000's actually) to show the tank. Then a 2nd gauge to show what the beer is at (meaning what is *after* the regulator). The one gauge I've seen your picture of that was 0-60 is only showing the beer, not the tank.

If you shut off the tank, the gauge should show whatever is after the regulator, meaning basically the beer. This is what I'm thinking that, if you see it climb, means your beer is carbonated higher than you think. It will take some time to see it. And you may have already had it show by now but didn't think to look, or with the testing perhaps kept knocking it back down?

For releasing the carbonation, you basically just keep opening the PRV on the keg. Let the pressure off, then let it seal. Repeat a number of times TBD.

 

[DuncB]

Well, we're all going on the idea that it's truly at the pressure you say. If it's way over then yeah you'll have issues.

Not me, post 2

Do make sure that your starting vols are really what you think they are, the small volume of beer and headspace makes them very dynamic in their response.

 

[Matheos]

I think your beer is overcarbonated.

Could be...

Typically there are 2 gauges, one in the 100's of psi (1000's actually) to show the tank. Then a 2nd gauge to show what the beer is at (meaning what is *after* the regulator). The one gauge I've seen your picture of that was 0-60 is only showing the beer, not the tank.

I have only one gauge, the one you see on the sodastream bottle. I now turned it down completely and also pulled up the "pin" that presses on the release of the gas bottle so that it surely does not come anything out of it. The pressure is now at 10psi, as it has been since I left it at that. I have never observed it higher, but let's now see what happens when I let it rest without the possibility of introducing more pressure.

I was also paranoid that I may have swapped the lines or something (gas and beer) and made sure that the red cap is really gas and not going to diptube. All OK there. Re-pressured to 10 bar and turned of the pressure according to last paragraph.

 

[tracer bullet]

Someone may know, but I want to say there's a chance that your regulator could bleed pressure? Depending on where it is. It could be that you actually won't see over 10psi or so if the regulator is releasing it.

Do you have another picture of the setup? Or if you're familiar enough with everything then I'll just suggest to be sure the gauge is indeed reading the keg pressure and that's all, that there's not more tubing leading to a regulator that -might- (or might not) be bleeding some off.

Just a thought. not 100% sure about this.

 

[camonick]

I could also add that I had this under 30psi of pressure for 25 ish hours afterwhich I took it down to 10psi for another 24 hours before trying my first pour.

I think this is probably your biggest problem. 30 psi on one gallon of beer for that long is probably severely over-carbonated. Try bleeding off the keg pressure as others have mentioned then try to pour another glass after a few days. Be sure everything is inside your kegerator and cold and depress the picnic tap all the way on to pour. You might blow through your whole keg before you get everything dialed in this time. I’m a big believer in the set and forget method of carbonation… it’s quite foolproof

 

[Matheos]

Someone may know, but I want to say there's a chance that your regulator could bleed pressure? Depending on where it is. It could be that you actually won't see over 10psi or so if the regulator is releasing it.

Do you have another picture of the setup? Or if you're familiar enough with everything then I'll just suggest to be sure the gauge is indeed reading the keg pressure and that's all, that there's not more tubing leading to a regulator that -might- (or might not) be bleeding some off.

Just a thought. not 100% sure about this.

Here are pictures https://www.homebrewtalk.com/thread...ridge-length-foam-issues.731759/post-10356663
(or scroll up). As you see the regulator is mounted right on the sodastream "tank" from which the short line goes to gas in post on the keg. I am no expert on how regulators work, so I cannot speak for if it releases excess pressure from the keg itself or if it just keeps more pressure from coming from the tank to the keg, depending on the regulator setting. As for now, I have the pressure completely cut off from the tank. It is still mounted on the tank but there is no way there is coming anything from it as of now. There is a separate "release pin" that needs to be screwed down for the pressure to come out of the bottle, even this have I wound all the way up.

I think this is probably your biggest problem. 30 psi on one gallon of beer for that long is probably severely over-carbonated. Try bleeding off the keg pressure as others have mentioned then try to pour another glass after a few days. Be sure everything is inside your kegerator and cold and depress the picnic tap all the way on to pour. You might blow through your whole keg before you get everything dialed in this time. I’m a big believer in the set and forget method of carbonation… it’s quite foolproof

Yes it does sound possible. As mentioned above I currently am not pressurizing at all and trying to figure out whether the gauge will give me another reading, a "how pressurized is the keg actually" - reading when the gas is completely off. Everything is in the fridge together.
I am not too bothered about blowing through the keg for this experiment. This is 4L left over beer from a double batch I did together with a friend for a party that his student union is arranging. From my point of view it is free beer and a chance to test my keg for the first time.
I think I will do the set and forget next time though...

 

[mac_1103]

If the beer is overcarbonated it will not improve just by turning off the CO2.

The gauge should be reading the pressure in the keg now, but in my experience those miniregulator gauges aren't the most accurate, especially at low pressures. I would pull the PRV on the tapping head, wait a few hours, and then check the gauge again. CO2 should start coming out of the beer when you release the pressure in the head space. So if the pressure doesn't drop at least a little then there may be something wrong with the gauge.

 

[Matheos]

Yeah no I don't expect this to solve the problem but I wanna see if I see an increase in pressure etc. the pressure definately drops if I pull the PRV, that I have tried. Though I have not tried pulling it and letting it sit and checking if it creeps back up again without any external (new) pressure applied. I will do that next

 

[Matheos]

Soon two days in without any gas ON and my gauge is still at 10psi (which I set it to just before turning everything off).

Going away for a few days on holiday now so we will see when I come back.. Might have to depressure + leave it and repeat if I have got no clearer indication by then..

 

[mashdar]

As day_trippr said above, if there is a check valve between the tank and the regulator (frequently built in to protect regulator), the gauge may not be a good indication of beer pressure if over carbonated.

How much head space is in the keg? After all this testing, at least down past the shoulder, yes?

Re fast carb, the time it takes will be inversely proportional to the gas-liquid interface (exposed liquid) area. It's also proportional(ish) to beer volume. Vessel shape affects carb time a lot. How full the keg is will change carb time, especially if you fill past the shoulder.

Also, Picnic Tap 2.1 was mentioned by mac; This would eliminate the lines completely, but might not fix a wildly over-carbonated beer.

edit: I use Picnic Tap 2.1 and like it, but FYI the pours are a bit slower, if that matters to you.

 

[mac_1103]

I don't know it the Core 360 regulator has a built-in check valve. The description doesn't mention one. It does have a PRV.

 

[Matheos]

Yeah I am unsure too but it does seem like the gauge is not moving at all even with the gas off, so could be?

And regarding headspace, yes definately quite a lot now since I have done my testing. Probably around 1/4 of the keg is gone. And the surface area is probably quite large too as I have to have it laying on its side to fit it in my refredigerator...

I had completely missed the mention of the Picnic Tap 2.1. Seems very nice! Does it mount on these kegland carbonation caps though? May be a stupid question. Are the ball lock fittings perhaps standardized in size?
One drawback of the tap though would be the fact that I would need to take the keg out each time I want to pour. A hose, even 50cm, would be sufficient to just take the tap out of the fridge and let the keg rest untouched.

 

[mac_1103]

Yeah I am unsure too but it does seem like the gauge is not moving at all even with the gas off, so could be?

Remove the gas QD from the keg. Pull the regulator PRV. Does the gauge go to zero and stay there?

Does it mount on these kegland carbonation caps though?

Picnic tap 2.1 has it's own liquid QD that you can connect directly to the liquid out post on the the oxebar keg tapping head.

 

[Matheos]

Remove the gas QD from the keg. Pull the regulator PRV. Does the gauge go to zero and stay there?

Picnic tap 2.1 has it's own liquid QD that you can connect directly to the liquid out post on the the oxebar keg tapping head.

Ok thanks. It was the QDs that I was unsure if are compatible. Nice it would work, but as I said, a short line would be optimal with my current fridge setup/restrictions..

I could do as you instruct. I suppose you mean that I reconnect the gas QD to the keg before checking the gauge? As surely it stays at zero when nothing is connected and the gas is off

 

[mac_1103]

It was the QDs that I was unsure if are compatible.

Ball lock QDs are universal. Gas and liquid are different (that's why one is black and the other is white or gray), but the posts on the oxebar tapping head are actually designed to accept either one (even though they also come in different colors they are not functionally different). There are lots of different configurations for the side of the QD that connects to the gas or liquid line, and the picnic tap 2.1 QD is not compatible with anything besides a picnic tap AFAIK.

As surely it stays at zero when nothing is connected and the gas is off

If you already know this then you don't have to repeat the test or do a different one. The idea is to figure out if the gauge is off. You said earlier that the pressure drops when you pull the PRV, but you didn't say whether it dropped all the way to zero and stayed there. You also didn't say if you were holding the PRV open until no more gas escaped or just pulling it for a second or two.