1.220 OG RIS

[ten80]

I don't fully understand the stepped feeding of wort.
This article is written as though high gravity wort is hard on the yeast. It's not. High alcohol% is. You can pitch any yeast you please and it will ferment until it reaches a point of toxicity. Correct?

Not quite. Any organism in a solution will be affected by osmotic pressure, that is the relative concentration of solutes (e.g., alcohol, sugars, salts) outside of the cell wall. In this case, we have a hypertonic solution (higher sugar concentration) outside of the cell, which results in the tendency of water to leave the cell due to the concentration gradient. Such gradients are hard on cells and require additional energy from the cell to maintain the correct balance of water inside the cell.

Think of it this way, if you were to drop a yeast cell into a hypertonic solution of salt water, the cell would have to "work" harder to retain water inside its membrane.

So, the question would be how much harder do yeast cells have to work when in high gravity worts? There are probably papers on this subject but I'm at work and shouldn't get too distracted

 

[ten80]

Check out osmotic pressure. If the wort density gets too high, the yeast are unable to metabolize the wort as effectively. At least that's as far as my understanding goes. Kind of like honey won't ferment unless diluted with water.

You beat me to the punch! Spot-on.

If I do this again, and I probably will, I might give the serial mash a shot depending on how this finishes up. Considering the price of grain versus propane, it's probably pretty close to a wash to get to the desired OG. I would be concerned with mas pH though after the first iteration, but my grasp of mash chemistry is admittedly weak.

Yes, the sequential re-use of wort may buffer the pH UP if there is a lack of darker kilned grains. A little acidification of the wort back to 5.2-5.8 pH using lactic acid would solve the problem.

 

[Jwin]

Thanks for the info. Reading up more on yeast is definitely a to do. Been wrapping my head around water the last few months. Think I'm almost there.

For serial mash info, Blichmann did an episode of Brew Strong on it.
https://www.thebrewingnetwork.com/brew-strong-triple-mashing-2/
He actually went ahead and did a triple mash.

 

[Comfort_Zone]

That's the article I was looking for! The link I had was broken and I couldn't find another source. Thanks!

You are correct. That's where the idea for the incremental additions comes from. Only I'm not worried about staying all grain.

Here's another

https://quaff.org/wp-content/uploads/2012/11/HighGravityFermentation-1.ppt

 

[Easycreeper]

Here's another

https://quaff.org/wp-content/uploads/2012/11/HighGravityFermentation-1.ppt

That's awesome! Thanks!

For an update, it looks like fermentation is firmly stuck. Took a hydrometer sample and it's reading 1.082, about 3 points lower than the Tilt. Placed the sample next to the water heater for a forced fermentation check. I'll add some fresh yeast as I build up another starter of 099.

So far I've learned that excessive boil duration has a negative effect on fermentability as @Jwin alluded to previously. Currently researching ways to correct this if there are any. Won't do anything until I have confirmation that the forced fermentation isn't working.

 

[Easycreeper]

At the very worst, I've got several years supply of a rather complex candi sugar to use when I see fit... You live, you learn.

 

[Comfort_Zone]

No worries. My first high alcohol brew definitely ended up like this.

Although at 1.082 you're about dead on for Dark Lord [emoji23]

 

[Easycreeper]

No worries. My first high alcohol brew definitely ended up like this.

Although at 1.082 you're about dead on for Dark Lord [emoji23]

Oof! Never had Dark Lord, but if it finishes anywhere near that number, it has to be next to undrinkable!

 

[Rhaop]

When all else fails I’d like to see what would happen if you pitched brett or a bug blend

 

[Easycreeper]

When all else fails I’d like to see what would happen if you pitched brett or a bug blend

Thought about that. Not sure how it would taste, but it's worth a shot. I've got a couple vials of Brett in the fridge right now. Thanks for the input!

Sent a FB message to Jamil Zainasheff this morning to see if he might have an idea or two. Of course, he doesn't know me from Adam's housecat, so I wouldn't blame him if he doesn't respond.

I've got a feeling there's nothing to be done with what I have over than try throwing bugs at it.

I plan on trying this again soon since I've got a bit of time off over the next couple of weeks. I'll probably use more grain this time around and may try the serial mash idea presented by @Jwin if I can work out the pH.

 

[Rhaop]

Yeah I’m going to listen to the brew strong on double and triple mashing before i do my next barleywine

I brewed my first barley wine with almost 17lbs of pale malt and used dme with a long boil to up my gravity, I finished with 6.25gal at 1.110og

Pitched 2 rehydrated packs of s-05 and finished at 1.023

 

[Jwin]

Yeah I’m going to listen to the brew strong on double and triple mashing before i do my next barleywine

I brewed my first barley wine with almost 17lbs of pale malt and used dme with a long boil to up my gravity, I finished with 6.25gal at 1.110og

Pitched 2 rehydrated packs of s-05 and finished at 1.023

That's a pretty good final gravity for so5 and that ABV sidering along boil and DME additions as well.

I'm curious how efficiently one could double or triple sparge a double or triple Mash IE using the same sparge water over and over again for a second beer.
Surely you could gyle a Saison or table beer off of it, assuming no roasted grains are used.
I think the easiest way to do a two-part cereal Mash would probably be to do Brew in the bag for the first Mash so that you can then adjust the temperature of the work with ease and just pump it into the next Mash. Definitely the easiest if you only have one mash tun by any paints cuz I could not imagine transferring work multiple times while I clean out my mash tun.
I suppose if you were to brew in a bag on the first one you could always just set the bag to the side over a bucket or something and then combine the two matches afterwards for the sparge gyle to 2nd beer.
Please excuse any typos as I'm driving and using speech to text.

 

[applescrap]

John blichmann did a very cool beer Smith episode on high gravity beers.

 

[cmac62]

I like the idea of doing a serial mash for big beers. I think I'll try that when I do my next wee heavy or barley/wheat wine. I hadn't thought about that. Since my MT is a 10 gal cooler I maxed it out with my last barley wine with 26lb of grain for a 5 gal batch, I think I hit around 13-14 abv.

 

[AMessenger]

If still stuck, I would try building up a new starter using the high gravity yeast and pitching that at a slighty higher temperature (mid 60s). I would bet that initial period in the 50s got things stuck for you.

 

[Easycreeper]

If still stuck, I would try building up a new starter using the high gravity yeast and pitching that at a slighty higher temperature (mid 60s). I would bet that initial period in the 50s got things stuck for you.

Got one going right now. Thanks for the tip!

The Tilt is now reading 1.080, so it's still trying to drop a little. We'll see how the starter does and I've got another idea or two to try as well.

Decided to brew this again, but using some DME to bolster the gravity. Assuming an efficiency of 60%, I'll still hit north of 1.210, but with a much shorter boil. I hate getting beat no matter what it costs, so maybe this will work out. Need to transfer the other so I can grab the Tilt for monitoring. Guess I'll freeze the other wort in plastic bags for later and reclaim the canning jars for the current batch.

Wish me luck...

 

[Rhaop]

Keep us posted this has been interesting!

 

[Easycreeper]

Keep us posted this has been interesting!

Oh, no worries. I'll update the thread, success or fantastic failure either one.

Mark 3:30PM Eastern as the start of a very gentle boil of the first runnings. Going to save the sparge for making future starters. Dark beers only, unfortunately, but that's not really a problem.

Mash was about two hours long and had a measured pH of 5.37. Came in a little closer to the target pH of 5.33 this time thankfully.

Same recipe (excluding the change to D-90 - I ran out of D-180 on the last batch), but only 15 gallons in this time. I've got around 9 gallons of first runnings and will add the DME and sugars late in the boil so they aren't affected by Maillard reactions as much. Hoping for around a two hour boil in both pots. Maybe that won't mess me up too bad... Keeping fingers crossed.

Oh, and going to reduce the hop quantity a bit from 3.5oz to 2oz. I tasted the wort from the first batch and it has some really nice things going on, but the hop bitterness is very pronounced given the amount of sugar in solution.

 

[Easycreeper]

Second runnings came in at 1.051. Guess I'll be diluting those for future starter use.

 

[Brewenstein]

Or pitch some yeast and have a nice 5% stout.

 

[thaymond]

This. Is. Awesome. I did something similar with a Wee Heavy. Similar in that I reduced a gallon to 3 pints of syrup. 4.5 gallons of syrup tho, crikey!

Also, partigyle brews are also pretty awesome. Take the extra 1.051 and make a 5-6% stout. I did that with the Wee Heavy too.

 

[Easycreeper]

Ok. Afraid to boil much longer than 2 hours, I ended up with 5.75 gallons of wort at 1.163. I plan on adding most, if not all of this to my starter and making up the difference with cane sugar towards the end. Got a lot of ground to make up... Maybe some piloncillo is in order depending on how fermentation progresses...

Had I hit my 4.5 gallon mark, I'd have a gravity of 1.208. Oh well.

Between my 1.036 half gallon starter and the quart of 1.163 wort, I'm sitting at 1.063 in a 5L flask according to the Tilt. Guess that means the starter fermented out to the 1.014 range.

Currently canning the remainder of the wort.

 

[Easycreeper]

Picture proof. I'll admit to some disappointment, but if it'll ferment out, I can live with it...

But... At least the quart I added to the starter is excited to be there... I'm excited too.

 

[anotherbeerplease]

Just curious, if you boiled for 8-9hrs, why not just boil for 1-2hrs as standard, then freeze the beer post ferment? Seems it could avoid a lot of the problems involved with high grav ferments??

 

[Jwin]

Just curious, if you boiled for 8-9hrs, why not just boil for 1-2hrs as standard, then freeze the beer post ferment? Seems it could avoid a lot of the problems involved with high grav ferments??

As I stated earlier, eis beer is the way to go for BIG bees in my opinion. It does take a bit of still to pull it off though. If you can pump co2 into the FV as it crashes/freezes, you are on the right track.
OP: definitely gonna need some sugar to dry it out after the large DME additions anyway. With the remainder of the original wort, you might try and Candi it on the stovetop a bit more(or maybe it's already there?) and and it to a pale-ish wort with some Belgian yeast. 3787 comes to mind as the dark fruit and the bit of roast would possibly work well together.

 

[Jwin]

As for eis beer, brewdog has pushed the limit.
Here's a video from the UK brewery of some chap Tactical Nuclear Penguin and then some...

 

[Jwin]

Watching it myself again, a couple of years later, Sink the Bismarck is Punk IPA frozen 7x8x times

 

[Easycreeper]

Just curious, if you boiled for 8-9hrs, why not just boil for 1-2hrs as standard, then freeze the beer post ferment? Seems it could avoid a lot of the problems involved with high grav ferments??

It's a matter of seeing if I can crack that 20% barrier or at least come close with fermentation alone. It's a personal goal since having learned that it can be done.

Doing an EIS beer is something I'd like to do at some point in the future, just not with this beer. I want the full 5 gallons for packaging when done and going the EIS route just won't cut it.

Plus, EIS beers have that whole "distilled" stigma that goes along with them. Potential for trouble there...

 

[Easycreeper]

As I stated earlier, eis beer is the way to go for BIG bees in my opinion. It does take a bit of still to pull it off though. If you can pump co2 into the FV as it crashes/freezes, you are on the right track.
OP: definitely gonna need some sugar to dry it out after the large DME additions anyway. With the remainder of the original wort, you might try and Candi it on the stovetop a bit more(or maybe it's already there?) and and it to a pale-ish wort with some Belgian yeast. 3787 comes to mind as the dark fruit and the bit of roast would possibly work well together.

Thanks. That's a good idea to Candi some of the remaining wort. I'll load some up with sugar and boil for a while to get some complexity when I get the chance.

 

[Jwin]

It's a matter of seeing if I can crack that 20% barrier or at least come close with fermentation alone. It's a personal goal since having learned that it can be done.

Doing an EIS beer is something I'd like to do at some point in the future, just not with this beer. I want the full 5 gallons for packaging when done and going the EIS route just won't cut it.

Plus, EIS beers have that whole "distilled" stigma that goes along with them. Potential for trouble there...

Though it is often called distillation, it's not. Its perfectly legal as far as federal laws go. I think there are only 2 states that have laws restricting anything to do with them. Neither Of which have to do with the Homebrew scale iirc. Also of them has been cleared my the moderators.

 

[Easycreeper]

Though it is often called distillation, it's not. Its perfectly legal as far as federal laws go. I think there are only 2 states that have laws restricting anything to do with them. Neither Of which have to do with the Homebrew scale iirc. Also of them has been cleared my the moderators.

Cool. I was under the impression it was frowned upon by lawmakers. Good to know that I won't be in any risk of getting in trouble when I make my attempt. Thanks for the clarification.

 

[Easycreeper]

Guess I'm going to have to admit defeat on this one. The second round is stuck in the mid 1.070s with only 2.25 gallons in the carboy. The shorter boil time didn't help at all it seems. I'm either getting a huge amount of unfermentables or I'm front loading the wort with too many simple sugars and the yeast are getting lazy on me.

At this point, I'm pretty frustrated with 099 since I'm feeding it like recommended, keeping SG below 1.100 with incremental feedings and lots of oxygen. I've had much better luck throwing wort at it with wll SGs over 1.120 and feeding it simple sugar as it starts to finish fermentation.

 

[Smellyglove]

I'd add wort with active enzymes, let it sit, then add krausen, see what happens.

 

[Comfort_Zone]

Beano might help.

 

[Easycreeper]

Beano might help.

I'm about four tabs in right now. It may take a bit longer to work than I think it does, so there could be that... Also have a bit of amylase enzyme in the mix.

It's not like the yeast are dead since krausen picks right up in about an hour of each addition. I could have a recipe or process problem that's resulting in a bunch of unfermentables.

Stepping up another starter right now to see if the other yeast is lazy, but I don't have much hope of that being the issue.

Thanks for the suggestion!

 

[Smellyglove]

I'm about four tabs in right now. It may take a bit longer to work than I think it does, so there could be that... Also have a bit of amylase enzyme in the mix.

It's not like the yeast are dead since krausen picks right up in about an hour of each addition. I could have a recipe or process problem that's resulting in a bunch of unfermentables.

Stepping up another starter right now to see if the other yeast is lazy, but I don't have much hope of that being the issue.

Thanks for the suggestion!

Am I correct in that you boiled this for only 2 hrs?

 

[Easycreeper]

Am I correct in that you boiled this for only 2 hrs?

Yup. The second batch was only two hours with a very low boil. But, vigorous or not, boiling is the same temperature...

 

[Smellyglove]

Yup. The second batch was only two hours with a very low boil. But, vigorous or not, boiling is the same temperature...

Well yeah, boiling is happening at the same temperature at any given atmospheric pressure, but boiling harder gives you more maillard-products, which in turn give you a less fermentable wort.

 

[Comfort_Zone]

To be fair, I don't find the WLP099 instructions to be that helpful. The tips and tricks from the Black Tuesday notes seem to apply to most yeast. If doing high abv I prefer to use Dry Belgian or WY3787, maybe 3711. WLP099 is way too finicky. I've gotten it past 20% but it was way more effort than the aforementioned yeasts.

 

[Jwin]

Thermal load. It's a b**ch.
Before you dump it, try some brett or goodbelly. Never know...