1.220 OG RIS

[Jwin]

I'll say again, rouse, warm, wait then evaluate.
We're all waiting patiently with you. Cheers [emoji482]

 

[MaxStout]

Subbed, as I want to see how this goes. Pullin' for you!

If this beer works out, you should consider writing a detailed article for HBT. I've never seen anything like this before at the homebrew level, and I'll bet many people would be interested to read about it.

 

[Easycreeper]

Subbed, as I want to see how this goes. Pullin' for you!

If this beer works out, you should consider writing a detailed article for HBT. I've never seen anything like this before at the homebrew level, and I'll bet many people would be interested to read about it.

Ha ha. Let's see how this beer ends up first. I may be headed for monumental failure here...

You might look up forum member paulthenurse as he and his crew have done a couple of brews of this magnitude in the past. They approached it differently than me and had mixed success with one of the batches quitting on them at a pretty high FG. If I recall correctly, they took that one to a distiller to salvage what they could. Their first attempt apparently turned out pretty great and was comparable to Utopias, if at a lower ABV.

 

[Easycreeper]

I'll say again, rouse, warm, wait then evaluate.
We're all waiting patiently with you. Cheers [emoji482]

Roused and warming. Waiting to evaluate... Gonna sleep on it and add another shot of oxygen in the morning.

 

[Jtk78]

Subbed to follow along. Really interesting approach to a monster beer. Hope it's very successful for you. If it does fail, you'll with make alcoholic syrup for your pancakes, or high octane fuel.

 

[bigdawg86]

I think pitching TYB dry belgian BEFORE the alcohol content gets too high would be something I would consider... Like I previously said I pitched mine at 12.2% ABV and I think the subsequent fermentation was much slower due to many yeasties getting killed off by the booze. The beer literally took 6 weeks to stop bubbling after pitching that yeast...

 

[Comfort_Zone]

Kinda reminds me of this......

https://byo.com/article/21-alcohol-all-grain-beer/

 

[Jwin]

I don't fully understand the stepped feeding of wort.
This article is written as though high gravity wort is hard on the yeast. It's not. High alcohol% is. You can pitch any yeast you please and it will ferment until it reaches a point of toxicity. Correct?
On one hand, I kinda get the idea that you are making sure the yeast are consuming some of the longer strain sugars in the first additions, before chomping at the simple sugars in the later additions.
But, on the other hand, they will still find themselves in a high alcohol environment facing a certain percentage complex sugars.
It's trying to treat the beer the same as step feeding simple sugar, but it's not the same at all from a yeast perspective. I'm also not all that convinced that o2 towards the end of the process is of any benefit as I doubt the yeast are trying to propagate much at that point.
Now, if you were oxygenating the new wort and pitching yeast into the new wort and allowing it to ferment to krausen before adding it to the prior fermentation, that would be beneficial as your adding active healthy yeast to the party.
Even if you were to get the yeast in the first ferment to propagate, there could be some costly mutations occurring in such a stressed environment.

Someone please correct me if this thinking is off as yeast health and science is still one of my larger opportunities.

Also, I still think boiling 18g down to 4g is asking for trouble no matter how you shake it.
One would be much better off doing serial mashes(mashing with wort from a previous mash) and decreasing boil time in my opinion. It would require more grain, but in the end I bet you would have a much more fermentable wort. And you could just sparge the other grain and gyle like crazy from it.

I may just have to try my hand at this one day. I have plans for a 60# Barleywine(11g) at some point. Gonna wait to get the RIMS completed before I tackle that one though.
One last word, I still believe fractional freezing is the way to go for BBIIGG beers. It's the way BrewDog does End of History(55% abv) and I believe Tactical Nuclear Penguin(32% abv). The key is being able to push co2 into the fermentor as it freezes(suck back,o2), and also removing the eisbeer afterwards with minimal o2 exposure. Anyone with a 60l Speidel, this is quite easy if you have the ability to add co2(NorCal brewing has some great solutions). When I did an eisbeer in my 60l in an upright freezer, all of the frozen water was a floating ball in the middle of the fermentor and I easily pulled the beer from the stock spigot. I imagine any conical would perform similar. Not so sure about buckets, etc but ice will float regardless so I suppose as long as you have a spigot, anything is possible.
Cheers.

 

[Easycreeper]

Kinda reminds me of this......

https://byo.com/article/21-alcohol-all-grain-beer/

That's the article I was looking for! The link I had was broken and I couldn't find another source. Thanks!

You are correct. That's where the idea for the incremental additions comes from. Only I'm not worried about staying all grain.

 

[Easycreeper]

I don't fully understand the stepped feeding of wort.
This article is written as though high gravity wort is hard on the yeast. It's not. High alcohol% is. You can pitch any yeast you please and it will ferment until it reaches a point of toxicity. Correct?
On one hand, I kinda get the idea that you are making sure the yeast are consuming some of the longer strain sugars in the first additions, before chomping at the simple sugars in the later additions.
But, on the other hand, they will still find themselves in a high alcohol environment facing a certain percentage complex sugars.
It's trying to treat the beer the same as step feeding simple sugar, but it's not the same at all from a yeast perspective. I'm also not all that convinced that o2 towards the end of the process is of any benefit as I doubt the yeast are trying to propagate much at that point.
Now, if you were oxygenating the new wort and pitching yeast into the new wort and allowing it to ferment to krausen before adding it to the prior fermentation, that would be beneficial as your adding active healthy yeast to the party.
Even if you were to get the yeast in the first ferment to propagate, there could be some costly mutations occurring in such a stressed environment.

Someone please correct me if this thinking is off as yeast health and science is still one of my larger opportunities.

Also, I still think boiling 18g down to 4g is asking for trouble no matter how you shake it.
One would be much better off doing serial mashes(mashing with wort from a previous mash) and decreasing boil time in my opinion. It would require more grain, but in the end I bet you would have a much more fermentable wort. And you could just sparge the other grain and gyle like crazy from it.

I may just have to try my hand at this one day. I have plans for a 60# Barleywine(11g) at some point. Gonna wait to get the RIMS completed before I tackle that one though.
One last word, I still believe fractional freezing is the way to go for BBIIGG beers. It's the way BrewDog does End of History(55% abv) and I believe Tactical Nuclear Penguin(32% abv). The key is being able to push co2 into the fermentor as it freezes(suck back,o2), and also removing the eisbeer afterwards with minimal o2 exposure. Anyone with a 60l Speidel, this is quite easy if you have the ability to add co2(NorCal brewing has some great solutions). When I did an eisbeer in my 60l in an upright freezer, all of the frozen water was a floating ball in the middle of the fermentor and I easily pulled the beer from the stock spigot. I imagine any conical would perform similar. Not so sure about buckets, etc but ice will float regardless so I suppose as long as you have a spigot, anything is possible.
Cheers.

Check out osmotic pressure. If the wort density gets too high, the yeast are unable to metabolize the wort as effectively. At least that's as far as my understanding goes. Kind of like honey won't ferment unless diluted with water.

White labs suggested handling of the yeast is here: https://www.whitelabs.com/yeast-bank/wlp099-super-high-gravity-ale-yeast

If I do this again, and I probably will, I might give the serial mash a shot depending on how this finishes up. Considering the price of grain versus propane, it's probably pretty close to a wash to get to the desired OG. I would be concerned with mas pH though after the first iteration, but my grasp of mash chemistry is admittedly weak.

 

[ten80]

I don't fully understand the stepped feeding of wort.
This article is written as though high gravity wort is hard on the yeast. It's not. High alcohol% is. You can pitch any yeast you please and it will ferment until it reaches a point of toxicity. Correct?

Not quite. Any organism in a solution will be affected by osmotic pressure, that is the relative concentration of solutes (e.g., alcohol, sugars, salts) outside of the cell wall. In this case, we have a hypertonic solution (higher sugar concentration) outside of the cell, which results in the tendency of water to leave the cell due to the concentration gradient. Such gradients are hard on cells and require additional energy from the cell to maintain the correct balance of water inside the cell.

Think of it this way, if you were to drop a yeast cell into a hypertonic solution of salt water, the cell would have to "work" harder to retain water inside its membrane.

So, the question would be how much harder do yeast cells have to work when in high gravity worts? There are probably papers on this subject but I'm at work and shouldn't get too distracted

 

[ten80]

Check out osmotic pressure. If the wort density gets too high, the yeast are unable to metabolize the wort as effectively. At least that's as far as my understanding goes. Kind of like honey won't ferment unless diluted with water.

You beat me to the punch! Spot-on.

If I do this again, and I probably will, I might give the serial mash a shot depending on how this finishes up. Considering the price of grain versus propane, it's probably pretty close to a wash to get to the desired OG. I would be concerned with mas pH though after the first iteration, but my grasp of mash chemistry is admittedly weak.

Yes, the sequential re-use of wort may buffer the pH UP if there is a lack of darker kilned grains. A little acidification of the wort back to 5.2-5.8 pH using lactic acid would solve the problem.

 

[Jwin]

Thanks for the info. Reading up more on yeast is definitely a to do. Been wrapping my head around water the last few months. Think I'm almost there.

For serial mash info, Blichmann did an episode of Brew Strong on it.
https://www.thebrewingnetwork.com/brew-strong-triple-mashing-2/
He actually went ahead and did a triple mash.

 

[Comfort_Zone]

That's the article I was looking for! The link I had was broken and I couldn't find another source. Thanks!

You are correct. That's where the idea for the incremental additions comes from. Only I'm not worried about staying all grain.

Here's another

https://quaff.org/wp-content/uploads/2012/11/HighGravityFermentation-1.ppt

 

[Easycreeper]

Here's another

https://quaff.org/wp-content/uploads/2012/11/HighGravityFermentation-1.ppt

That's awesome! Thanks!

For an update, it looks like fermentation is firmly stuck. Took a hydrometer sample and it's reading 1.082, about 3 points lower than the Tilt. Placed the sample next to the water heater for a forced fermentation check. I'll add some fresh yeast as I build up another starter of 099.

So far I've learned that excessive boil duration has a negative effect on fermentability as @Jwin alluded to previously. Currently researching ways to correct this if there are any. Won't do anything until I have confirmation that the forced fermentation isn't working.

 

[Easycreeper]

At the very worst, I've got several years supply of a rather complex candi sugar to use when I see fit... You live, you learn.

 

[Comfort_Zone]

No worries. My first high alcohol brew definitely ended up like this.

Although at 1.082 you're about dead on for Dark Lord [emoji23]

 

[Easycreeper]

No worries. My first high alcohol brew definitely ended up like this.

Although at 1.082 you're about dead on for Dark Lord [emoji23]

Oof! Never had Dark Lord, but if it finishes anywhere near that number, it has to be next to undrinkable!

 

[Rhaop]

When all else fails I’d like to see what would happen if you pitched brett or a bug blend

 

[Easycreeper]

When all else fails I’d like to see what would happen if you pitched brett or a bug blend

Thought about that. Not sure how it would taste, but it's worth a shot. I've got a couple vials of Brett in the fridge right now. Thanks for the input!

Sent a FB message to Jamil Zainasheff this morning to see if he might have an idea or two. Of course, he doesn't know me from Adam's housecat, so I wouldn't blame him if he doesn't respond.

I've got a feeling there's nothing to be done with what I have over than try throwing bugs at it.

I plan on trying this again soon since I've got a bit of time off over the next couple of weeks. I'll probably use more grain this time around and may try the serial mash idea presented by @Jwin if I can work out the pH.

 

[Rhaop]

Yeah I’m going to listen to the brew strong on double and triple mashing before i do my next barleywine

I brewed my first barley wine with almost 17lbs of pale malt and used dme with a long boil to up my gravity, I finished with 6.25gal at 1.110og

Pitched 2 rehydrated packs of s-05 and finished at 1.023

 

[Jwin]

Yeah I’m going to listen to the brew strong on double and triple mashing before i do my next barleywine

I brewed my first barley wine with almost 17lbs of pale malt and used dme with a long boil to up my gravity, I finished with 6.25gal at 1.110og

Pitched 2 rehydrated packs of s-05 and finished at 1.023

That's a pretty good final gravity for so5 and that ABV sidering along boil and DME additions as well.

I'm curious how efficiently one could double or triple sparge a double or triple Mash IE using the same sparge water over and over again for a second beer.
Surely you could gyle a Saison or table beer off of it, assuming no roasted grains are used.
I think the easiest way to do a two-part cereal Mash would probably be to do Brew in the bag for the first Mash so that you can then adjust the temperature of the work with ease and just pump it into the next Mash. Definitely the easiest if you only have one mash tun by any paints cuz I could not imagine transferring work multiple times while I clean out my mash tun.
I suppose if you were to brew in a bag on the first one you could always just set the bag to the side over a bucket or something and then combine the two matches afterwards for the sparge gyle to 2nd beer.
Please excuse any typos as I'm driving and using speech to text.

 

[applescrap]

John blichmann did a very cool beer Smith episode on high gravity beers.

 

[cmac62]

I like the idea of doing a serial mash for big beers. I think I'll try that when I do my next wee heavy or barley/wheat wine. I hadn't thought about that. Since my MT is a 10 gal cooler I maxed it out with my last barley wine with 26lb of grain for a 5 gal batch, I think I hit around 13-14 abv.

 

[AMessenger]

If still stuck, I would try building up a new starter using the high gravity yeast and pitching that at a slighty higher temperature (mid 60s). I would bet that initial period in the 50s got things stuck for you.

 

[Easycreeper]

If still stuck, I would try building up a new starter using the high gravity yeast and pitching that at a slighty higher temperature (mid 60s). I would bet that initial period in the 50s got things stuck for you.

Got one going right now. Thanks for the tip!

The Tilt is now reading 1.080, so it's still trying to drop a little. We'll see how the starter does and I've got another idea or two to try as well.

Decided to brew this again, but using some DME to bolster the gravity. Assuming an efficiency of 60%, I'll still hit north of 1.210, but with a much shorter boil. I hate getting beat no matter what it costs, so maybe this will work out. Need to transfer the other so I can grab the Tilt for monitoring. Guess I'll freeze the other wort in plastic bags for later and reclaim the canning jars for the current batch.

Wish me luck...

 

[Rhaop]

Keep us posted this has been interesting!

 

[Easycreeper]

Keep us posted this has been interesting!

Oh, no worries. I'll update the thread, success or fantastic failure either one.

Mark 3:30PM Eastern as the start of a very gentle boil of the first runnings. Going to save the sparge for making future starters. Dark beers only, unfortunately, but that's not really a problem.

Mash was about two hours long and had a measured pH of 5.37. Came in a little closer to the target pH of 5.33 this time thankfully.

Same recipe (excluding the change to D-90 - I ran out of D-180 on the last batch), but only 15 gallons in this time. I've got around 9 gallons of first runnings and will add the DME and sugars late in the boil so they aren't affected by Maillard reactions as much. Hoping for around a two hour boil in both pots. Maybe that won't mess me up too bad... Keeping fingers crossed.

Oh, and going to reduce the hop quantity a bit from 3.5oz to 2oz. I tasted the wort from the first batch and it has some really nice things going on, but the hop bitterness is very pronounced given the amount of sugar in solution.

 

[Easycreeper]

Second runnings came in at 1.051. Guess I'll be diluting those for future starter use.

 

[Brewenstein]

Or pitch some yeast and have a nice 5% stout.