Sour Mash Gose! Recipe Critique

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specharka

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After trying the sublime Troublesome from Off Color Brewing, I am determined to recreate the stellar and subtle session beer from a sour mash.

Champagne SuperGose

Batch Size 4 gallons
Target O.G. 1.040
Target F.G. 1.010
4% ABV
10 IBU

75% Brewhouse Efficiency

4# Pilsner malt
3# White wheat malt
1# Flaked wheat
0.5# Rolled oats
0.5# Rice hulls (separate)
1.0# Acidulated malt (separate)

0.5 oz Northern Brewer (8% AAU) - 30 min
0.25 oz Sea salt - 10 min
0.25 oz Coriander, crushed - 10 min

Reserve 0.5 lb of fermentable grains and store in sanitized muslin bag. Mash in remaining grains (except acidulated malt) at 1.25 qt/lb for 60 minutes at 150F. After saccharification is complete, add 0.7-1.0 lb acidulated malt to target a mash pH of 4.5. Mash out at 168F. Sparge with 185F water. Collect 5 gal wort in sanitized keg. Allow wort to freefall to 120F.

Place reserved grain bag in wort. Purge keg of all oxygen by pushing CO2 through the beer line post and discharging through relief valve. Attach ferm heater and maintain temperature between 112-115F for 48-72 hours.

When wort has achieved desired tartness (pH = 3.6), discharge wort through beer line post and boil for 60 minutes, per the above boil schedule. Chill to 65F and pitch WY1007 starter (I am coupling this with a Troublesome dreg starter). Ferment in primary for 2 weeks and bottle or keg to medium-high carbonation.

At this point, the keg may be cleaned and sanitized, or reserved as an inoculation/fermentation reservoir for long-term souring projects.

Any thoughts? This will be my first sour mash project, so I am very interested at what the results might be!
 
I've never made a gose, but I've read it should be roughly 60/40-in terms of wheat/pilsner. Looks like you have more pilsner - any specific reason? I know it's not a rule, just more a guidline....just curious.

Also, I've only seen goses made using either lacto bacteria when pitching, or using sauermalz in the mash or for steeping. You say you'll just steep a bit of the grist around 110°F - wouldn't this just be a protein rest of sorts? This is a new method for me - could you explain how you would get sourness from this? Thanks!
 
Is the 1lb of grain reserved to pitch for lacto? If so you certainly don't need that much, a handful or two of uncrushed grain is plenty.
 
MagicMatt said:
I've never made a gose, but I've read it should be roughly 60/40-in terms of wheat/pilsner. Looks like you have more pilsner - any specific reason? I know it's not a rule, just more a guidline....just curious.

Also, I've only seen goses made using either lacto bacteria when pitching, or using sauermalz in the mash or for steeping. You say you'll just steep a bit of the grist around 110°F - wouldn't this just be a protein rest of sorts? This is a new method for me - could you explain how you would get sourness from this? Thanks!
Click to expand...

Actually it's a 50/50 Pils/wheat grist. If you're familiar with Troublesome, it definitely has more of a Pils backbone than wheat, so it's not a "true" Gose per se. It's a very quaffable beer.

The rest at 110 is a lactobacilis culturing rest from the naturally occurring bacteria on the un-mashed malt. Since lacto reproduces anaerobically, this method aims to curb aerobically reproducing bacterial growth that would otherwise taint the wort. There is a much wider spectrum of bugs that naturally occur on malt than in a lacto culture, so theoretically the beer should benefit from the difference in genetic diversity. Lacto just happens to be one of the fastest souring specimens.

And if I elect to keep the keg as an inoculation chamber for future souring, that same genetic diversity (think: wild yeast, Brett, pedio) may be maintained for generations.
 
Consider using up to 1 lb of acidulated malt in your grain bill to bring the mash pH down or adjust your wort pH with food-grade lactic or phosphoric acid. A pH below 4.5 or lower will inhibit the growth of bacteria that produce off flavors like vomit, cheese, and stinky feet. Keeping the temperature above 110F will also slow down the "bad" bacteria, though some strains of Lactobacillus prefer temperatures as low as 85F. Dr. Lambic just posted a new article on kettle souring that lists the preferred temperatures for several commercial strains, and you can also find some good information on the Milk The Funk wiki.

Happy souring!
 
If my memory serves correctly, the presence, or lack thereof, of wheat is Gose is debatable, just as it is in Lichtenhainer and even Berliner Weiss. My Gose is 70% pils and 30% wheat.

paulegli said:
Consider using up to 1 lb of acidulated malt in your grain bill to bring the mash pH down or adjust your wort pH with food-grade lactic or phosphoric acid. A pH below 4.5 or lower will inhibit the growth of bacteria that produce off flavors like vomit, cheese, and stinky feet. Keeping the temperature above 110F will also slow down the "bad" bacteria, though some strains of Lactobacillus prefer temperatures as low as 85F. Dr. Lambic just posted a new article on kettle souring that lists the preferred temperatures for several commercial strains, and you can also find some good information on the Milk The Funk wiki.

Happy souring!
Click to expand...

This. Drop your pH <4.5 if you're grain inoculating. It makes for a much cleaner, more reliable sour. Enteric sour mashes are just plain nasty.
 
paulegli said:
Consider using up to 1 lb of acidulated malt in your grain bill to bring the mash pH down or adjust your wort pH with food-grade lactic or phosphoric acid. A pH below 4.5 or lower will inhibit the growth of bacteria that produce off flavors like vomit, cheese, and stinky feet. Keeping the temperature above 110F will also slow down the "bad" bacteria, though some strains of Lactobacillus prefer temperatures as low as 85F. Dr. Lambic just posted a new article on kettle souring that lists the preferred temperatures for several commercial strains, and you can also find some good information on the Milk The Funk wiki.

Happy souring!
Click to expand...

Thanks for the insight and information! I have read that temperatures above 112F effectively inhibit all Clostridium butyricum, but it is interesting to note that sometimes bacterial infections still persist. As this is still a "wild inoculation", I will definitely provide some acidulated malt to modify the pH of my mash. Would I still need to perform a short boil to minimize risk of contamination, even though I'm already moderating wort pH and temperature?

Multiple articles have cited that 7-10% acidulated malt is all that is required to achieve a pH of 4.5 (based upon a mash pH of 5.2) necessary for a sour mash. So it seems that 0.7-1.0 lb should do the trick...I'll just add and measure mash pH as necessary to verify. Would I need to compensate for sparge water as well considering I'm not inoculating in my mash vessel?

Looks like I'm gonna need a pH meter after all...
 
Talked to a fellow at the LHBS today, and he strongly recommended kettle souring. Can't say I'm surprised, considering what I'm aiming for. However, the yeast strain recommended is a Berliner Weisse strain (WY3191), composed of a Sacc, Lacto, and Brett mix, so I'm not confident it will get the job done on its own. In addition, I would have to pasteurize the kettle soured beer, presumably destroying all microflora, and have to re-pitch Sacc to achieve final gravity / bottle condition the beer. Moreover, Wyeast recommends aging 3-6 months for optimal souring.

Think I'm gonna keep this in my back pocket, unless there is some way I can reconcile using WY3191 here. Any ideas?
 
I haven't done this method, so take it with a grain of salt, but I have done a ton of research as I'm really wanting to do this at some point.

I have thought about the use of acid malt after the mash to bring the ph down to below 4.5. I think it's a good idea, though it seems that just adding some lactic acid might be the easier approach. But I believe that the ph will go down by .1 for every .1 pounds you add in. So if that's the case, I believe you're right on track with the amount you've decided on.

In a sour mash, I think you're really targeting the lacto above all the others, so if that wyeast strain is all those you mentioned, and they're recommending up to three months, it sounds more like a type that you would pitch post-fermentation. If you're going to do the sour mash I would either pitch pure lacto or the grains. I think the most important thing is to monitor the flavor and the ph. So getting a ph meter is probably a great idea. (That's actually the reason I haven't done this yet, I don't want to attempt it without a meter).

About the boil: yes you will kill the bacteria. I think that's the main reason to do it. Secondary reason being to boil some hops, though most sours are pretty low on the bitterness. You don't really need to boil for 60 minutes though. The longest I've seen recommended is 30 minutes, and that one was simply because they wanted a little more bitterness than normal. You'll then want to pitch a normal sacch strain for fermentation. One last thing to take into consideration is that you may want to plan your grain bill with the assumption that you're losing any alcohol produced from the souring during the boil. Most goses and Berliners are low abv, so maybe that's not a concern for you, but it's something I've taken into consideration.

I would recommend taking a look at brulosophers attempt at a Berliner. It's a nice post with very good illustrations and instructions.
 
Here is how I kettle soured my Berliner. Mashed, sparged as normal to collect 5.25 gallons (did not need full per-boil due to a 15 min boil). I let the wort cool to around 120 degrees and tossed in a couple of handfuls of uncrushed 2-row. Purged the kettle with C02 and stuck the lid on. Stuck in the ferm chamber to hold the temp at 110 for 48hrs. Checked ph daily until I got my desired ph of 3.4 which came around the 48 hr mark.
Boiled for 15 min and tossed in about 5 ibu worth of old hops. Cooled to pitching temps and pitched Wlp029. Once FG was reached, bottled.
 
Thank you for the responses! Good to hear I'm not out to pasture on this one. :)

joshesmusica said:
I haven't done this method, so take it with a grain of salt, but I have done a ton of research as I'm really wanting to do this at some point.

I have thought about the use of acid malt after the mash to bring the ph down to below 4.5. I think it's a good idea, though it seems that just adding some lactic acid might be the easier approach. But I believe that the ph will go down by .1 for every .1 pounds you add in. So if that's the case, I believe you're right on track with the amount you've decided on.

In a sour mash, I think you're really targeting the lacto above all the others, so if that wyeast strain is all those you mentioned, and they're recommending up to three months, it sounds more like a type that you would pitch post-fermentation. If you're going to do the sour mash I would either pitch pure lacto or the grains. I think the most important thing is to monitor the flavor and the ph. So getting a ph meter is probably a great idea. (That's actually the reason I haven't done this yet, I don't want to attempt it without a meter).

About the boil: yes you will kill the bacteria. I think that's the main reason to do it. Secondary reason being to boil some hops, though most sours are pretty low on the bitterness. You don't really need to boil for 60 minutes though. The longest I've seen recommended is 30 minutes, and that one was simply because they wanted a little more bitterness than normal. You'll then want to pitch a normal sacch strain for fermentation. One last thing to take into consideration is that you may want to plan your grain bill with the assumption that you're losing any alcohol produced from the souring during the boil. Most goses and Berliners are low abv, so maybe that's not a concern for you, but it's something I've taken into consideration.

I would recommend taking a look at brulosophers attempt at a Berliner. It's a nice post with very good illustrations and instructions.
Click to expand...

I should have said: do I really need to boil before I pitch the grains? And the answer, apparently, is not at all.

So here's what I've decided. I'm going to retain all the above steps, with the following difference: a shortened post-souring boil. From what I read there's absolutely no need for a long boil. I am targeting 10 IBUs (and flirting with the idea of less), which equates to about 0.25 oz / 7 g Northern Brewer at 15 minutes. Also, I want to keep this beer tart, but not a full-on pucker, so I think I'll aim for around a pH of 3.5 pre-boil.

The sacc strain that I harvested from bottle dregs of Troublesome has been humming along nicely. Not sure what it is (WLP029 or WY1007, I'm guessing), but I'm aiming for a clean finish, so my fermentation will target 62F for the first 3 days.

As much as I would like to sour in my kettle, I have concerns that my existing ferm wrap heater won't do the job on my 10 gal kettle (although the built-in temp probe is a very nice feature). Not to mention, it might be tough to orchestrate a CO2 purge in the kettle. I think I need to experiment with this idea a little bit first...
 
specharka said:
Thank you for the responses! Good to hear I'm not out to pasture on this one. :)



I should have said: do I really need to boil before I pitch the grains? And the answer, apparently, is not at all.

So here's what I've decided. I'm going to retain all the above steps, with the following difference: a shortened post-souring boil. From what I read there's absolutely no need for a long boil. I am targeting 10 IBUs (and flirting with the idea of less), which equates to about 0.25 oz / 7 g Northern Brewer at 15 minutes. Also, I want to keep this beer tart, but not a full-on pucker, so I think I'll aim for around a pH of 3.5 pre-boil.

The sacc strain that I harvested from bottle dregs of Troublesome has been humming along nicely. Not sure what it is (WLP029 or WY1007, I'm guessing), but I'm aiming for a clean finish, so my fermentation will target 62F for the first 3 days.

As much as I would like to sour in my kettle, I have concerns that my existing ferm wrap heater won't do the job on my 10 gal kettle (although the built-in temp probe is a very nice feature). Not to mention, it might be tough to orchestrate a CO2 purge in the kettle. I think I need to experiment with this idea a little bit first...
Click to expand...

Sounds like a pretty good plan. The keg idea is a good idea, because of the ability purge, but then you either have to dedicate it to sours, or clean the **** out of it afterward. Something I've read some people do put saran wrap on it while it's still warm, only lifting it off to throw in the grains.
 
The wild inoculation worked extremely well. A little too well. Due to the holiday festivities I was not able to check the pH until I got home some 12 hours later. In 24 hours, the pH went from 4.72 down to 3.36! (Initially I checked it and it read a very low 3.06. Then I remembered that pH meters, like refractometers, are driven by fluid temperature. After cooling the wort, the pH stabilized around 3.40.)

The wort is very tasty. Bright, clean, citrusy, and devastatingly tart. Might have to thin this one out with a half-gallon or so of tap water to open the flavors up and allow my Sacc starter some room to grow. The aroma is a faint, musty sourdough, but it has been gradually dissipating in the boil.

Zero discernable off-flavors in the wort. No stinky feet, cheese, enteric or butyric nastiness. For that matter, no wild yeast either (wort gravity was stable around 1.040). Very excited to taste the alcoholic version of this thing.
 
Thread update!

Cracked open the first bottle today and I am shocked how good this beer came out. Bright, tart, with decent amount of head and a mellow mouthfeel that covers the palate. Absolutely zero detected off flavors. The salt and coriander play nicely as well.

I know everyone thinks their farts smell like roses, but this is almost certainly a solid quaffer. Will definitely make this one again!

View attachment ImageUploadedByHome Brew1450544523.538851.jpg
 
Glad it came out so well. I've been playing around with wild fermented gose, myself, and it's good to see some folks having success with similar methods.
 

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