Oatmeal Crystal Cider?

I've done a few ciders before, and some have been better than others. Mostly I'm not super impressed. Maybe I'm just not that into cider. They seem to lack body and flavor. My favorite has been Graham's English Cider.

I've thought about doing one similar to graff, but without hops and using specialty grains instead of DME. I was thinking of using Crystal malts and maybe some oats to build up some creamy body and a bit of sweetness. Perhaps I'd mash with a pinch of wheat for some diastatic power. I could do a quick BIAB mash at 160 and then add juice concentrate for an easy recipe.

Questions:

1. What grains would/have worked? Lighter Crystal? Darker? Aromatic?

2. What yeast should be used? I've read that wine yeast won't eat much of the longer chain sugars--would this help at some sweetness and/or body?

3. Any other pertinent thoughts or advice?

I've been experimenting with the basic graff recipe for a few years & have tried several different grains & adjuncts. My fav is Munich and/or Caramunich both light & dark. I also use 2 row, but I've used 6 row when I used flaked rye. Honey malt is good, so is aromatic. I've used crystal 60, 80, 120, special roast, special B, brown, victory, biscuit, vienna/cara vienna, amber, rauch malt (smoked), torrified wheat, flaked oats, flaked barley, flaked rye, I even tried a bit of acidulated malt once.

I've used light, amber & dark LME, honey, molasses, brown sugar, raisins, dates, figs, ginger, lemon zest, FAJC (frozen apple juice concentrate), caraway seed, cinnamon, allspice, nutmeg & vanilla. Obviously some things worked out better than others, the things that didn't work well for me were the special B, acidulated malt, lemon zest. I'm still working on the pie spices.

I use Nottingham yeast almost exclusively, but I've also used US-04 & US-05 with good results. I'd like to try other yeast strains though, I just haven't gotten around to it yet. I use mostly goldings hops cuz I like 'em so much, but I've also used perle. The goldings flavor & aroma WILL fade over time, leaving virtually no detectable hop flavor or aroma. I've never made a graff without hops, but I have made 1 with just a small amount of hops. That was a darker, drier version using dark LME & crystal 120. The fact that it was less sweet helped with the small amount of hops; it turned out pretty good & had plenty of toasty/raisiny notes.

I'd suggest using 2 row, Munich/caramunich, crystal 60, aromatic, flaked oats, maybe a bit of brown and/or a bit of honey malt. I'd still use LME/DME, but you could always just use more grain instead, basically making an AG version of graff. I like to add thawed FAJC to make up for the water used in the steep/mash, basically turning that water into juice after the mash. I'll also add more FAJC to sort of "juice up" the apple juice. Just be aware that doing so also increases the acid content, making things more tart.
Regards, GF.

Thanks so much for this reply. This is exactly what I was looking for. How much of each grain do you recommend using for a 5 gallon batch? I probably will add more 2-row or wheat than DME since I brew all-grain anyway.

To clarify, I'm not necessarily looking for something just like graff, but a way to punch up a dry cider just a little bit. I'm think of doing some pie spices, too, but I may do those as a bourbon tincture to add at bottling so I can experiment with how much to add.

If you're interested, here is a link to my 'Gunslinger Cranberry Graf', which has resulted in a lightly carbonated, slightly sweet, appley cider. I really don't get any beer notes, just the residual sweetness from the unfermentable sugars in the wort.
www.brewtoad.com/recipes/gunslinger-cranberry-graf-2014
I currently have an extract batch fermenting, using 3.3lb Munich LME+1lb. honey, and steeped 1lb. Honey Malt, 1 lb. C-60 and 1/2 lb. C-120.

JimRausch said:

If you're interested, here is a link to my 'Gunslinger Cranberry Graf', which has resulted in a lightly carbonated, slightly sweet, appley cider. I really don't get any beer notes, just the residual sweetness from the unfermentable sugars in the wort.

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So I have to ask, if you don't get any malt flavor why bother to put it in the cider/graff to begin with? Couldn't you just use some nonfermentables like lactose, maltodextrine, or even sorbitol, xorbitol, etc to get some sweetness and body? Is there something else going on that I'm missing?

I've never had a graff before so I'm unclear on the concept of using malt if you don't even get any malt flavor.
Thanks

SanPancho said:

So I have to ask, if you don't get any malt flavor why bother to put it in the cider/graff to begin with? Couldn't you just use some nonfermentables like lactose, maltodextrine, or even sorbitol, xorbitol, etc to get some sweetness and body? Is there something else going on that I'm missing?

I've never had a graff before so I'm unclear on the concept of using malt if you don't even get any malt flavor.
Thanks

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What I'm looking to do is not to turn a cider into a hybrid cider/beer (hops and all), but instead to add just a hint of sweetness/maltiness to make the cider more enjoyable since it seems to turn out a bit too light/dry/tart, though clocking in at 6%+ abv. I want to edge in the direction of beer without meeting half-way. I don't want to drink it and think, 'this cider tastes like beer!' but, 'this is a satisfying cider.' Maybe some things you mentioned would work, too. I've tried some artificial sweeteners and they tasted bad, but not lactose or maltodextrin.

tennesseean_87 said:

Thanks so much for this reply. This is exactly what I was looking for. How much of each grain do you recommend using for a 5 gallon batch? I probably will add more 2-row or wheat than DME since I brew all-grain anyway.

To clarify, I'm not necessarily looking for something just like graff, but a way to punch up a dry cider just a little bit. I'm think of doing some pie spices, too, but I may do those as a bourbon tincture to add at bottling so I can experiment with how much to add.

Click to expand...

I'm at work at the moment, so I don't have access to my brewlog, but I know I've used as much as 4.5 lbs total grain in a 6 gallon batch, but that was with LME, I think I used about 4 lbs LME in that batch, but I'll have to check my notes to be sure. I tend to go malt/grain heavy with graff and I shoot for an ABV of right about 8%; goes down nice & smooth and after a pint, you feel it.

Raisins can add a little body as well as fermentable sugar, I just pulse 'em in a food processor with a little water, they get pretty sticky. You might try adding a bit of tannin, that can give the perception of a heavier body, just remember a little tannin goes a long way & it's easy to use too much. You might try adding flaked rye or flaked barley in addition to the flaked oats, they'll give you more body. You might try a lower attenuating yeast or maybe lower flocculating yeast like a weizen yeast. It'll be cloudy, but you'll definitely get more mouthfeel/body.

I'll check my brewlog/notes & see just exactly how much of what was used in various versions/recipes & post more tomorrow.
Regards, GF.

ah, i get it. i like my cider with a bit of sweetness too. and im not partial to the artificial sugars either, they taste too sweet to me. even in small amounts.

just check your gravity as you get closer to being done with fermentation. at around 1.010 to 1.015 you'll get some sugar left over and therefore a light sweetness.

at that point i just pasteuerize the cider and kill off the yeast. then you get residual sugars for both sweetness and a bit of body. the only downside is that you cant carb in the bottle with yeast as it'll eat up any of the remaining sugars, then you're back to square one.

i keep my pasteurized bottles in the cooler, then when i want a carbonated one i use my co2 tank, a carbonator cap and 1 liter bottle, and its carbonated in about one minute.

but if you like to drink it still, then pasteurizing is probly the simplest method for you. check it until it tastes right, then kill the yeast.

I'm trying to avoid stove-top pasteurizing, since I like my cider carbonated. It's too time sensitive and I can get busy, and I don't want to flirt with bombs.

Try increasing the crystal 60 malt to 1 lb, or more if you want it even sweeter, or you could use honey malt, it's pretty sweet. Don't mash, just steep, increase the steeping time & add enough FAJC (thawed, but not reconsituted) to turn the steeping water into juice. You might want to omit the LME/DME & use sugar if you want to increase the ABV without added malt flavor. I checked my notes & I've used up to 4 lbs of LME & 3.5 lbs total grain in a single 6 gallon batch. Sounds like you don't want to go that far. I've never used any less than what Brandon O's original recipe calls for, only more. You might try doing 1 gallon batches to experiment with till you find what you're looking for.
Regards, GF.

I was actually planning to do just a 2 gallon batch. The black tea tanin in Graham's English Cider is good, but I thought some oats and a bit of crystal might be even better, but wasn't sure on amounts.

Ihave two remaining questions that we've not really discussed much:

1) Has anyone has used a wine yeast with some malt added and what were the results were like?
2) Does the use of malts/grains mean you need more fermenter headspace?

I started a batch of 2.5 gallons with 8 oz wheat malt, 8 oz toasted oats, 7 oz honey malt, and 2 oz victory malt. I brought some water up to strike temp for a 160 mash and let it steep for 30 minutes. I used 1/2 gallon of apple juice, 1/2 gallon of cranberry juice, and two cans of concentrate intended for 96 oz of juice. I might add a third later. I'll update with my results later. I'm hoping for some nice body and mouthfeel from the grains.

After 4 days or so it's down to 1.012 and has a bit of maltiness to it and a good bit of sweetness. I'm expecting/hoping the sweetness will tone down at least a little.

One last aspect of this that I want to experiment with is timing of the malt addition. It's the accepted wisdom not to make starters for beer with simple sugar (use DME instead) because they will 'train' the yeast to only ferment simple sugars and not prepare them for fermenting the complex sugars achieved in mashing malted grains. This si bad for beer, but might be good for adding residual sweetness to ciders. Perhaps pitching the yeast into juice and letting them acclimate to fermentation of simple sugars before adding the DME or steeped specialty grains will result in more unfermentables and use less overall grain to get the character and/or sweetness desired. I might try this with the next batch.

Sitting at 1.008 for a few days now. It's got a bit of tartness to it and a hint of breadiness. I'm thinking more honey malt and maybe a bit of Crystal 60 or so would do it some good. I may try again with the late addition of the malt in another batch.