Why a a Grainfather over....

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brew-in

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This

http://www.highgravitybrew.com/store/pc/BIAB-Electric-Brewing-System-120V-269p4647.htm

or this

http://www.cobrewingsystems.com/products/single-vessel-electric-brew-system-ebiab

or this

http://brausupply.com/collections/biab-systems/products/small-batch-countertop-electric-brewery-biab-1

or this

http://www.brew-boss.com/product-p/bb120120-value10-biab.htm

or...

I think you all get the picture...IMHO there are lots of BIAB systems around a $1K. Most have PiD controllers, nice pumps, etc. (however no chiller)...

With all the fuss about the Grainfather, I am confused as to why it is a better value than the above systems...Am I missing something?
 
The Grainfather seems to be in a neater, more self-contained package, but apart from that, it seems like all of these systems do basically the same thing.

At only $890, it's not like the Grainfather is at worse price point than most of these.
 
I just glanced at the suggestions and just judging from the pics, I'd choose the GF over any of them. First off it is complete, with chiller and all. It is appealing in its simplicity (the execution of some of the others is pretty messy). Some of the others have mesh walls for the basket, some even use an actual bag. In my book that is a negative.
I don't think the popularity of the GF is ill deserved, it has a lot of things done right, that might not be all that obvious. PID is definately not a requirement. Plus I'd rather get something with a userbase given a choice.
I'm not saying those other systems are bad. It is good that there are choices and competition, what I'd choose it not necessarily what someone else would prefer.
Still, I'd rather build my own (which is what I did).
 
GF has a few downsides that I can see without having used it. It is underpowered for the batch size. Speaking of batch size it is rather limited there. The pump is tiny and proprietary. The controller is not PID. I personally would never brew with it but of course I see why it appeals to some people just as the Picobrew does (though I absolutely wouldn't brew on that either). Of all the EBIAB systems out there, I think the best value is the Brew-Boss. It's modular enough to be maintained inexpensively as well as adapt to larger batch sizes in the future without buying an entire system and the controller has a nice level of automation in it. I'd call it a premium version of the high gravity system.
 
just seemed to me these competing units offered:

1) Higher power element. I have concern about boiling at sea level in a cool garage with the Grainfather...
2) PID controllers
3) Larger pots to make boiling enuff wort for 5 gallon beer easier
4) In some cases, very nice pumps (chugger SS)

these items, to me, would make them more attractive than the GF.
 
I went through this same thought process. I landed on the Brau Supply 9 gallon kettle with 2x1500 elements because I thought it was the best bang for the buck at $649.
 
I bought a Grainfather and have only used it once so far. Plan on brewing again Friday. I just wanted to reply to brew in comments


brew-in said:
just seemed to me these competing units offered:

1) Higher power element. I have concern about boiling at sea level in a cool garage with the Grainfather... Agreed. Bought a bucket heaterto supplement 1600 watt heater to save time reaching mash temps and boil temps. I'm at 340' above sea level, but I live in NC, I'll let you know on Friday how it works.

2) PID controllers I haven't used a PID controller before, so I don't know what I'm missing.

3) Larger pots to make boiling enuff wort for 5 gallon beer easier. I guess they recommend you only collect eight gallons of wort, but the pot actually holds about nine gallons. You can easily get enough wort for a six gallon batch

4) In some cases, very nice pumps (chugger SS) The pump seemed to work fine, but time will tell......

these items, to me, would make them more attractive than the GF.
Click to expand...
 
I don't see why. What good is the pump, when it does not have solid sides for the basket?
I'd rather just get large pot, a BIAB bag and an induction hob.
 
andysim said:
I bought a Grainfather and have only used it once so far. Plan on brewing again Friday. I just wanted to reply to brew in comments
Click to expand...


Ahh the bucket heater may solve my primary concern with boiling...thanks...noticed the Allied Precision one is only $40 on amazon. A review by a homebrewer using one says it brings cuts his stove top boil time for 7 gallons of wort from almost 2 hours to 45 minutes....

Wonder if you could the bucket heater during the boil, or just to help lift the temps...
 
alphaomega said:
I don't see why. What good is the pump, when it does not have solid sides for the basket?
I'd rather just get large pot, a BIAB bag and an induction hob.
Click to expand...

Hmm...guess your comment applies to all these systems as all the baskets do not have solid sides?

Baskets, without solid sides, and recirc, have become very common....

Is your point that all these systems do not benefit from recirc?

not trying to be difficult, just understand...

IMHO, the recirc on all these systems is primarily to maintain stable mash temps across th e grain bed....

The pump can also be used to recirc the wort during cooling with a immersion chiller increasing the cooling rate...
 
There seems to be a lot of emphasis on the lack of a PID. Doesn't the Grain Father have some kind of pseudo PID? You set your mash temp and then wait for it to heat....something like that. It seems as though the Grain Father offers automation that you'd get with a PID without an actual PID. Or am I missing something?

Proprietary parts are indeed a hassle. I visited the site and in the forums a user is already looking for a replacement filter, which is seemingly unavailable at this time to the user in the UK. With the competition, it seems like I can easily replace parts if needed.

I think the Grain Father is a very nice self-contained unit. I've read other threads on the issue of the lack of boil. I don't want to drop nearly a grand on something and have to buy a secondary heat source and if I did that, how would I use it anyway? I like the distilling feature of the Grain Father, though it's not legal where I'm at so there is that.

To me, I think there are pros and cons of all of the systems being discussed here.
 
brew-in said:
Ahh the bucket heater may solve my primary concern with boiling...thanks...noticed the Allied Precision one is only $40 on amazon. A review by a homebrewer using one says it brings cuts his stove top boil time for 7 gallons of wort from almost 2 hours to 45 minutes....

Wonder if you could the bucket heater during the boil, or just to help lift the temps...
Click to expand...

One of the other Grainfather users bought a 1000 watt bucket heater for $9 off of amazon.

I'd just use it to speed up mash and boil times. Once I get close to the mash temp or boil temp the heaters going to get turned off.

I'm also going to add a Reflectix insulation jacket to the kettle
 
brew-in said:
In particular I find this one a very interesting alternative to the GF

http://brausupply.com/collections/biab-systems/products/small-batch-countertop-electric-brewery-biab-1

Dual 1500 watt elements,
PID controller
11 Gallon pot
etc...

and only $665 + shipping....leaves plenty of funds to buy a nice chiller and still be at/below the price of a GF.....

P.S. once you click the link, use the pull downs to select 11 gallon and dual 1500 watt elements to see the price with this configuration...
Click to expand...

I think you have to run the 11 gallon system on two different circuits
 
Well I use a Braumeister, and the sleeve is solid, with filters top and bottom. . . of course it is considerably more expensive than the Grainfather. I did get to see a demo of the GF before making my decision, and for me it was a no brainer. I went to One Vessel full volume brewing to make life easier (I don't have a permanent space for brewing, and hauling 100+ litre stainless pots in and out of storage was getting trying) the 20L BM is actually 40L to the brim (the 50L is 80L to the brim). It's not PID controlled, but the automated mash schedules is a nice feature, and I would have had to replace the controller of the GF because it's just not 'nice'.

Of course having 240V outlets as standard does make electric brewing easy over here :D
 
andysim said:
I think you have to run the 11 gallon system on two different circuits
Click to expand...

Yeah, It is kinda interesting, as best I can figure ONE of the 1500 watt elements is controlled by the controller and the other is used in an on/off fashion (plug and unplug from separate 120V service) to augment the 1500 watt element controlled by the controller.

So during rise to mash temp, mash out, or boiling one would activate (plug in) the 2nd element.....sorta "turbo-charge mode"!

perhaps Steven from Brau Supply will chime in with clarification.
 
brew-in said:
Hmm...guess your comment applies to all these systems as all the baskets do not have solid sides?

Baskets, without solid sides, and recirc, have become very common....

Is your point that all these systems do not benefit from recirc?

not trying to be difficult, just understand...

IMHO, the recirc on all these systems is primarily to maintain stable mash temps across th e grain bed....

The pump can also be used to recirc the wort during cooling with a immersion chiller increasing the cooling rate...
Click to expand...


Yes, recirc is (primarily) to keep a constant temperature in the mash. But at water will take the easiest route, when you pour it on top, won't it just spill out the sides if they are perforated? I can't see how just pumping the wort around the mash will be very beneficial.

As for the PID. There is no reason to have PID controlled mash, unless you're a glutton for punishment. Thermostat control is just fine (large mass, relatively small heater and fast response).
 
brew-in said:
Yeah, It is kinda interesting, as best I can figure ONE of the 1500 watt elements is controlled by the controller and the other is used in an on/off fashion (plug and unplug from separate 120V service) to augment the 1500 watt element controlled by the controller.

So during rise to mash temp, mash out, or boiling one would activate (plug in) the 2nd element.....sorta "turbo-charge mode"!

perhaps Steven from Brau Supply will chime in with clarification.
Click to expand...

This is exactly how it works.
 
alphaomega said:
Yes, recirc is (primarily) to keep a constant temperature in the mash. But at water will take the easiest route, when you pour it on top, won't it just spill out the sides if they are perforated? I can't see how just pumping the wort around the mash will be very beneficial.

As for the PID. There is no reason to have PID controlled mash, unless you're a glutton for punishment. Thermostat control is just fine (large mass, relatively small heater and fast response).
Click to expand...

Cool...yeah I follow the logic on recirc (and concur)...so I wonder why almost all of them do it even though they have holes in the side of the basket.

I guess the exception to this is the COFI in higher end Brew Boss systems that pumps the wort down a tube and out the middle of the grain....

So why not a PID in a BIAB system? Lots of folks seem to love them....

Thanks tons for your time, inputs and thoughts...I appreciate the dialogue..
 
brew-in said:
Cool...yeah I follow the logic on recirc (and concur)...so I wonder why almost all of them do it even though they have holes in the side of the basket.
Click to expand...

Because of temperature stratification-it gives you a more even temp throughout the mash.
 
If you priced out all the off the shelf components used to throw that high gravity "system" together you would find that it adds up to about $300 with shipping at most..... and the other $600 is for assembly and marketing... I feel they are the most overpriced setup I have seen to date. especially when I read that the components are installed with a hot glue gun and they use speaker wire inside which insnt rated for its use here... Its one thing if it were a DIY project but this is a DIY project done cheaply and sold at a premium.

recirculating not only keeps temps even it also minimized dead spots and dough balls as well as clarifying the wort. Otherwise its like its like making tea without stirring or dipping.
think of an old coffee percolator....
 
augiedoggy said:
recirculating not only keeps temps even it also minimized dead spots and dough balls as well as clarifying the wort. Otherwise its like its like making tea without stirring or dipping.
think of an old coffee percolator....
Click to expand...

Yes, well... As I said earlier, if the sides are not solid, the whole mash is a 'dead spot'.
So far the debate has been why a PID is sooo imperative to keeping the mash temp, while just splashing the wort about passes for recirculation.
Edit: That is, I'd rather go with a system with solid walls, than one with a PID controller. A PID is not a selling point for me, solid walls are.
 
alphaomega said:
Yes, well... As I said earlier, if the sides are not solid, the whole mash is a 'dead spot'.
So far the debate has been why a PID is sooo imperative to keeping the mash temp, while just splashing the wort about passes for recirculation.
Edit: That is, I'd rather go with a system with solid walls, than one with a PID controller. A PID is not a selling point for me, solid walls are.
Click to expand...
but re circulation without a temp controller to keep the liquid at a constant temp results in inconsistent mash temps right? I think forcing the liquid through instead of giving it a path around the grain bed is important but so is consistent temps.. you will get beer without either just not as consistent or efficiently

I actually like the idea of pushing the liquid up thru a channel of grain from the bottom and having it flow over the sides back onto the bottom.. vs dealing with the restrictions of plugged straining systems and false bottoms.... I wonder is it really would be more efficient and cleaner to do it that way.
 
alphaomega said:
Yes, well... As I said earlier, if the sides are not solid, the whole mash is a 'dead spot'.
So far the debate has been why a PID is sooo imperative to keeping the mash temp, while just splashing the wort about passes for recirculation.
Edit: That is, I'd rather go with a system with solid walls, than one with a PID controller. A PID is not a selling point for me, solid walls are.
Click to expand...

Great thread...thanks to all who are contributing....

So potentially the side walls with holes are not good.

Would one be better off with just a screen suspended above the element and then use a bag that would fill the diameter of the kettle.....then the recirc may drain more thru the grain and not out the sides of the basket?

Sorta like this version of the brew boss:

http://www.brew-boss.com/product-p/bb240120-value15.htm

as best I can tell, with such a system, the bag just sits on top of the screen. The bag would then expand laterally to fill the diameter of the kettle....resulting in better recirc flow thru the grain than a basket with holes in the side..

So why us a basket?
 
augiedoggy said:
If you priced out all the off the shelf components used to throw that high gravity "system" together you would find that it adds up to about $300 with shipping at most..... and the other $600 is for assembly and marketing... I feel they are the most overpriced setup I have seen to date. especially when I read that the components are installed with a hot glue gun and they use speaker wire inside which insnt rated for its use here... Its one thing if it were a DIY project but this is a DIY project done cheaply and sold at a premium.

recirculating not only keeps temps even it also minimized dead spots and dough balls as well as clarifying the wort. Otherwise its like its like making tea without stirring or dipping.
think of an old coffee percolator....
Click to expand...

your thoughts on the high gravity system are very worrisome......as someone with a Masters Degree In Electrical Engineering, I do worry about non-engineer/technical types building/selling controllers...30 Amps of 240 volts is not something to be take lightly...it truly can kill you...
 
augiedoggy said:
but re circulation without a temp controller to keep the liquid at a constant temp results in inconsistent mash temps right? I think forcing the liquid through instead of giving it a path around the grain bed is important but so is consistent temps.. you will get beer without either just not as consistent or efficiently

I actually like the idea of pushing the liquid up thru a channel of grain from the bottom and having it flow over the sides back onto the bottom.. vs dealing with the restrictions of plugged straining systems and false bottoms.... I wonder is it really would be more efficient and cleaner to do it that way.
Click to expand...

Absolutely. I meant PID vs thermostat. I'm fine with thermostst control (I'm fine with PID as well). But not having solid walls makes it seem like a lot of fuss for little gain.

Yes, like the braumeister then. Sure.
Two problems with that, first is sealing the malt pipe. Second is how be able to do different batch sizes. So, rice hulls are cheap on the other hand :)
 
brew-in said:
Great thread...thanks to all who are contributing....

So potentially the side walls with holes are not good.

Would one be better off with just a screen suspended above the element and then use a bag that would fill the diameter of the kettle.....then the recirc may drain more thru the grain and not out the sides of the basket?

Sorta like this version of the brew boss:

http://www.brew-boss.com/product-p/bb240120-value15.htm

as best I can tell, with such a system, the bag just sits on top of the screen. The bag would then expand laterally to fill the diameter of the kettle....resulting in better recirc flow thru the grain than a basket with holes in the side..

So why us a basket?
Click to expand...

It's not that it is no good, I'm sure it brews beer. But it seems suboptimal. Why pump and PID when it won't recirculate properly? It's not like you need to do any of this, it would be better value to just skip the pump and PID, than doing it 'wrong'.

The basket is probably to shield the bag from the elements and for easier lift and drain. Just the bag, if you can get it to press the sides of the pot, would probably be better, but it still might promote channeling down the sides (but that is just my guess, I don't know).
 
hunter_la5 said:
You can get channeling down the sides in any system.
Click to expand...

true but its minimized when you dont have an easy bypass route for the wort to go...I also think tall narrow kmashtuns work better to prevent this from being an issue.
Some actually restir the mash from time to time but I find its not needed myself... my efficiencies are all pretty good. and my wort goes into the boil kettle nice and clear.
 
singybrue said:
Because of temperature stratification-it gives you a more even temp throughout the mash.
Click to expand...

Once the Beta or Alphas have been created or denatured, depending on mash temp, does the mash temperature matter all that much?
 
Bickering aside I would say common sense would dictate that the liquid will take the path of least Resistance and a good amount of it will just escape out of the open sides right? or is their something that Im not taking into consideration i mean you already have a free and clear open channel all the way around the circumference of the inside of the kettle? the liquid is just going to flow down that way? I dont really mean to piss in anyone's wheaties but this makes the design inferior as far and I can see.... speaking of... if I dumped a pile of wheaties on the table and poured milk on top do you think it would be more likely to flow in and through it evenly of over the top of it leaving the majority of the pile seeing very little active flow and rinsing? its going to work more like a regular pot with heat control but no circulation as far as I see. BIAB is a much better way to execute this process effectively. Its bling unlesss the basket fits snugly into the kettle..... form over function. Again its like suspending a teabag in the center of a cup and stirring the water around it vs actually dipping the teabag and forcing the water through it. which do you think would do a better job of extracting / disolving the tea?
 
brew-in said:
Do you have one of the dual 1500 watt systems?

How do you like it?
Click to expand...

Yes, I have owned the 9 gallon system since about April. And I don't care that the basket has holes in the sides. It works great!

My efficiencies are consistently 85% +. Mash temps are stable. It's compact and you can pack the entire system in the kettle when you're done. Good investment.

The one thing I'm still trying to dial in is how fine to crush. Right now I'm milling too fine and sometimes it clogs up the bag and it overflows the kettle if I'm not watching. I need to widen the gap to allow freer flow of the wort to the underside of the basket.

I personally think worrying about holes in the side of the basket is splitting hairs. One way you could test to see if it is causing issues is to take a wort sample mid mash from the pump discharge and from the middle of the grain bed. Then measure the specific gravity of these samples and see if there is a difference. Also, one could measure and compare the temperature at these two spots.

I would wager you will see no difference between the two numbers. If I remember I'll test this next time I brew.
 
Even if the recirculated wort channeled through a few areas of the grain bed or completely around the bag or basket, it is still performing the intended task of temp maintenance the same way a pot in a regulated water bath would. A full volume single vessel system is not designed like a fly sparge lauter tun and it doesn't have to be. Channeling is an irrelevant concept for a system like this.
 
@hunter_la5: You are mixing different quotes, that were said about different things, as if it was about the same thing.
Yes, I have not brewed with any of these systems. And yes, I am fairly certain they won't be recirculating properly.

@Bobby_M: I don't completely agree.
Yes it, will avoid stratification, and yes it will hold temp like a water bath would. But the problem is that you are just changing the temp of the wort around the mash and not the actual mash.
Say you mash in and are a few degrees shy. When will the complete mash reach target temp? The wort around may reach target quickly, but the mash itself may not. You really need to stir then. So why the PID and pump if you still need to do it manually?
I agree that 'pure' BIAB does not care about channeling, but if you add recirculation, I do think you messed up, if the basket does not have solid sides and the wort does not pass through the grains.

The channeling... *sigh*. What was said was: "what if not using a basket and just let the bag 'seal' against the pot", I said "that would work better but the bag might promote channeling". From that a whole lot of confusion about channeling arose.

I really don't understand, I thought I was making a pretty simple point.
There is nothing wrong with BIAB or using baskets with perforated sides. It works well for a lot of BIAB brewers. But if you are going to add pump and temperature control, without proper recirculation, you are cheating yourself, and what good will the pump and PID do?
I'm sorry, I'll shut up, but personally I wouldn't buy a system that was designed like that.
 
It seems maybe a bit late to jump in, but I didn't see this thread earlier so here goes!
My 2 cents...
The reason you are pumping wort, is for optimum temperature control. It moves the wort around the vessel. Because of this exchange of wort, the PID can react faster therefore keeping temps with greater precision. As a result, you do have a clearer wort because of circulation, a small bonus. Building a grain bed in BIAB is not relevant like it is in a traditional mash tun so issues of whether there are holes in the sides of the basket aren't issues as you are brewing with a full volume of wort. The grains are more immersed like a tea bag is in tea. The basket is there for protection from the element and yes, for lifting but I'm still trying to find a downside to the basket vs. just the bag.
 

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