Mash heresy, the tale of 3 brew sessions

I just took the FG of 3 brews that I experimented on. I had been finding my final gravity to be lower than I wanted with BIAB and I decided to test the effect of a shorter mash period on the final gravity, with the additional intent of seeing what DMS I might have to contend with using a shorter than usual boil plus no chill with the lid on the pot. The 3 brews were the same recipe so I had a reasonable comparison. Note that this was a single experiment and needs to be replicated to see if the same result was achieved.

Recipe as follows:
3.8 lbs Briess Brewers malt, 1.8 SRN
.5 lb honey malt
.5 lbs white rice

Batch one:
Mashed for 20 minutes
OG 1.045
FG 1.008

Batch 2:
Mashed for 10 minutes
OG 1.045
FG 1.008

Batch 3:
Mashed for 5 minutes
OG 1.044
FG 1.008

When the mash period was over, I pulled the bag and set it into a colander that was sitting in a plastic bowl. As soon as the bag was pulled the stove burner was turned on so the wort would reach mashout temperature as quickly as possible. Wort collected in the bowl was returned to the boil pot as soon as practical. The bag of grains was sparged with boiling water to attempt to stop the conversion quickly and that wort collected was returned to the boil pot as soon as possible.

When the pot reached boil and the hot break had subsided I added the bittering hops and started the boil timer which was set for 30 minutes. When the timer chimed, I put the lid on the pot and carried it outside to my deck for chilling. The chilling took about 4 hours because the temperature was below zero and the wind was blowing 10 to 20mph.

Taste test says that the 20 minute mash and the 10 minute mash beers were about the same. I did not detect DMS from either although I though the 10 minute mash may have had a bit of grainy flavor. The 5 minute mash had as different taste, perhaps a sweeter taste but still no DMS. I cannot account for a sweeter taste except that I had used up all the Nottingham yeast I had on the first 2 batches and used Windsor for the last.

Awesome. I'm really interested to hear what your final tasting notes are on the three.

I will say that with my two wheats, the one where I used Notty did have a bit more sweetness when compared to the brew in which I used US-05.

It might be a notty thing, but again, really interested to hear the differences once carbed up and conditioned.

RM-MN said:

Taste test says that the 20 minute mash and the 10 minute mash beers were about the same. I did not detect DMS from either although I though the 10 minute mash may have had a bit of grainy flavor. The 5 minute mash had as different taste, perhaps a sweeter taste but still no DMS. I cannot account for a sweeter taste except that I had used up all the Nottingham yeast I had on the first 2 batches and used Windsor for the last.

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Thanks for doing the experiment and sharing the results.

The experiment had the same malt bill with 3 mashing times.
All 3 brews had a 30 minute boil and a no chill w/lid on treatment after boil.
The above paragraph states that no DMS was detected. Was discovering the amount of detectable DMS produced by the different mash times the goal of the experiment? I didn't think that DMS was produced or eliminated in the mash, rather it is produced in the malting process and the boiling of the wort drives it off. DMS can also be produced in fermentation. I was under the impression that the reason for 60 minute mashes was conversion of the starches and flavor development.

Were you happy with the overall flavor of the 20 minute mash beer?
Perhaps a side by side blind tasting with the above experiment but add
a 60 minute mash + all samples have the same yeast?
Thanks again for doing it.

very cool experiment! keep us updated if you test again and get similar results!

madscientist451 said:

Thanks for doing the experiment and sharing the results.

The experiment had the same malt bill with 3 mashing times.
All 3 brews had a 30 minute boil and a no chill w/lid on treatment after boil.
The above paragraph states that no DMS was detected. Was discovering the amount of detectable DMS produced by the different mash times the goal of the experiment? I didn't think that DMS was produced or eliminated in the mash, rather it is produced in the malting process and the boiling of the wort drives it off. DMS can also be produced in fermentation. I was under the impression that the reason for 60 minute mashes was conversion of the starches and flavor development.

Were you happy with the overall flavor of the 20 minute mash beer?
Perhaps a side by side blind tasting with the above experiment but add
a 60 minute mash + all samples have the same yeast?
Thanks again for doing it.

Click to expand...

The primary goal was to find the limits for a short mash time to try to get a higher FG, retaining more sweetness since many of my BIAB batches turn out drier than intended. I really expected to note DMS because we've been told to be sure to get a vigorous boil with the lid off to drive it off so this was a side note experiment. My boils were not very vigorous and for only 30 minutes. As soon as the boil was complete, the lid was on for a period where the wort was over 180 as it "no chilled" which is supposed to favor the production of DMS too.

I believe that the action of the yeast drives off some DMS and that it is only formed at the higher temperature.

Was I happy with the flavor? No, I prefer a darker beer but this was an easy batch to make, cheap and quick. The lighter color was to detect if I had a problem with DMS as there would be little other flavors to hide it. The other reason I chose this recipe was that it would be cheap so I wouldn't cry much if it turned out so bad I had to dump it. With a bit of luck I may find someone who will help drink it.

When the beers are bottled and carbonated I'll plan to update with what the flavor turns out like.

I'm looking forward to hearing more about this!

Good test. Too bad you couldn't use the notty on all 3.

I'd remind everyone that you use a super fine crush in a BIAB bag. What was your grain to water ratio?

Weezy said:

Good test. Too bad you couldn't use the notty on all 3.

I'd remind everyone that you use a super fine crush in a BIAB bag. What was your grain to water ratio?

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The grain to water ratio was .343 lbs per quart.

Maybe you meant to ask the water to grain raitio instead? That was about 3 quarts per pound.:rockin:

Yes I do use a very fine crush and anyone else who wants to attempt this short mash should mill their grain nearly to flour.

I should give credit for this line of experimentation to Biermuncher as I got the idea from this thread. https://www.homebrewtalk.com/f36/controlling-attenuation-through-mash-times-60576/

Thanks for the data points, as I know it's one of the things often used against the short mash time experiments.

I'd like to see this done with something where specialty grains have a bigger impact as the recipe used is pretty much just 2row. Honey malt and the rice aren't going to impact the color or flavor a whole lot, and will somewhat counteract each other as far as FG affects go.

I can definitely see this working for something like a session pale ale, or a saison or something but less so for the average porter or stout. I just can't see anything less than 20-30 minutes being sufficient to impart their flavor profiles to the grist.

pricelessbrewing said:

Thanks for the data points, as I know it's one of the things often used against the short mash time experiments.

I'd like to see this done with something where specialty grains have a bigger impact as the recipe used is pretty much just 2row. Honey malt and the rice aren't going to impact the color or flavor a whole lot, and will somewhat counteract each other as far as FG affects go.

I can definitely see this working for something like a session pale ale, or a saison or something but less so for the average porter or stout. I just can't see anything less than 20-30 minutes being sufficient to impart their flavor profiles to the grist.

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I may do that but not until next fall when the weather gets cooler again as my area that I ferment in has begun to get too warm. It would be interesting if I (we?) find that steeping or mashing the specialty doesn't need a long time. I would hope someone else would give this a try, if not the 5 minute mash (that was a scary thought), at least the 10 minute one with the specialty grains. Something in me wants to find the limits, push the boundaries, etc.

pricelessbrewing said:

Thanks for the data points, as I know it's one of the things often used against the short mash time experiments.

I'd like to see this done with something where specialty grains have a bigger impact as the recipe used is pretty much just 2row. Honey malt and the rice aren't going to impact the color or flavor a whole lot, and will somewhat counteract each other as far as FG affects go.

I can definitely see this working for something like a session pale ale, or a saison or something but less so for the average porter or stout. I just can't see anything less than 20-30 minutes being sufficient to impart their flavor profiles to the grist.

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why does it need to change when adding specialty grains? just steep those in a separate pot while you're mashing.

Aren't a lot of brewers waiting to mash in roasted grains towards the end of the mash (to avoid harshness)? And crystal malts are often given just a short steep by extract brewers.

It's worth a test, I guess, but I don't think it'll change the results much.

Magnus314 said:

Aren't a lot of brewers waiting to mash in roasted grains towards the end of the mash (to avoid harshness)? And crystal malts are often given just a short steep by extract brewers.

It's worth a test, I guess, but I don't think it'll change the results much.

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If I only mashed for 10 minutes and put the roasted grains in the mash in the beginning, wouldn't that be near the end of the mash anyway? How near the end of the mash does it have to be to avoid the harshness?

Interesting. Did you do a blind triangle taste test?

brewbama said:

Interesting. Did you do a blind triangle taste test?

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No, not yet as 2 of the 3 batches are yet to be bottled. Maybe I will get to bottling those this week. Even then I might not do the blind test as I live way out in the middle of nowhere and assembling a tasting panel might be difficult.

This really wasn't meant to brew the best beer anyway, it was to see if a shorter mash would control the activity of the beta amylase to get a higher FG and thus a more malty beer since I have been getting a much higher attenuation than I wanted. In that, this experiment failed as all 3 attenuated the same, all lower FG than I wanted.

RM-MN said:

No, not yet as 2 of the 3 batches are yet to be bottled. Maybe I will get to bottling those this week. Even then I might not do the blind test as I live way out in the middle of nowhere and assembling a tasting panel might be difficult.

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Be your own taste panel. Have someone pour two of one and one of the second without your knowledge. You decide which two are the same. Then do the same with one and the third. Then do the third and the second. That will tell you if there's a difference or not.

brewbama said:

Be your own taste panel. Have someone pour two of one and one of the second without your knowledge. You decide which two are the same. Then do the same with one and the third. Then do the third and the second. That will tell you if there's a difference or not.

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Who will pick me up off the floor when I tip over from sampling too much?

My wife might be able to get me a small enough sample that I will still be sober enough to make the comparison.

Since the thrust of this experimentation was to make wort that was less fermentable to end up with beer that still had some body, the next step will be to make identical brews with different mash temps, keeping the mash time the same. So far I've tried 152 and 155 with the FG being about the same. It may be some time before I get to that experiment. I have a lot of beer that I need to drink first.

Yea, comparing the taste is somewhat moot as they are different ages, my opinion of course but I find homebrew to be a living dynamic thing that changes w age.

Interesting lil study, thanks!

Perhaps you need to start adding some Carapils/dextrine malt to your recipes to give you more non-fermentables to get your FG's up.

Brew on

It's time for some intermediate results. I've sampled the 10 minute and the 5 minute mash batches (one each day) and the 10 minute one is pleasant tasting but at this point lacks heading. The 5 minute mash one tastes more watery and has no head at all. More sampling in the upcoming weeks after which I will report on those findings.

RM-MN said:

The primary goal was to find the limits for a short mash time to try to get a higher FG, retaining more sweetness since many of my BIAB batches turn out drier than intended. I really expected to note DMS because we've been told to be sure to get a vigorous boil with the lid off to drive it off so this was a side note experiment. My boils were not very vigorous and for only 30 minutes. As soon as the boil was complete, the lid was on for a period where the wort was over 180 as it "no chilled" which is supposed to favor the production of DMS too.

Click to expand...

I was under the impression that the mash temperature, vice mash duration per se, had more to do with the body profile. mid 140's F for a drier beer and mid 150s F for more body.

Ace3x said:

I was under the impression that the mash temperature, vice mash duration per se, had more to do with the body profile. mid 140's F for a drier beer and mid 150s F for more body.

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That conventional wisdom applies for traditional mash times with traditional crushes. For very fine grain particles (fine crushes) the diffusion processes happen much faster due to shorter required diffusion distances. Water gets into the particles faster, so the starch can gelatinize/become soluble faster. Once solublized the starches can diffuse out into the wort faster. This makes the starches available to beta-amylase earlier in the mash, when less of the beta has been denatured, if mashing at temps in the low to mid 150's. This will provide more beta activity than in a mash with a coarser crush, so higher temperature mashes will turn out more fermentable. In order to reduce the amount of beta activity, the mash time needs to be shortened.

Brew on

doug293cz said:

That conventional wisdom applies for traditional mash times with traditional crushes. For very fine grain particles (fine crushes) the diffusion processes happen much faster due to shorter required diffusion distances. Water gets into the particles faster, so the starch can gelatinize/become soluble faster. Once solublized the starches can diffuse out into the wort faster. This makes the starches available to beta-amylase earlier in the mash, when less of the beta has been denatured, if mashing at temps in the low to mid 150's. This will provide more beta activity than in a mash with a coarser crush, so higher temperature mashes will turn out more fermentable. In order to reduce the amount of beta activity, the mash time needs to be shortened.

Brew on

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This whole experiment was brought on by a thread started by Deathbrewer which stated that to decrease fermentability you could reduce the mash time. Since my beers were fermenting out farther than I wanted, I was trying shorter mashes to see whether this applied to the very fine grind that I was using with BIAB. It didn't get the results I wanted so now I'm using a little longer mash but a higher temperature. Where a mash of 155 would get you a full bodied beer, with my fine grind it seems like I need to mash at about 159 to get similar results.

Correction: It was Biermuncher, not Deathbrewer who mentioned shortening mash time.

RM-MN said:

This whole experiment was brought on by a thread started by Deathbrewer which stated that to decrease fermentability you could reduce the mash time. Since my beers were fermenting out farther than I wanted, I was trying shorter mashes to see whether this applied to the very fine grind that I was using with BIAB. It didn't get the results I wanted so now I'm using a little longer mash but a higher temperature. Where a mash of 155 would get you a full bodied beer, with my fine grind it seems like I need to mash at about 159 to get similar results.

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Yeah, when things happen faster it's tougher to control them then when they go slow. There are a lot of different things going on in a mash, all at their own rates. You seem to have found that just shortening the mash time is not sufficient to control the fermentability when using an extremely fine crush. Going higher temps will speed up the denaturing of the beta-amylase, so that's another knob to turn. Part of the "fun" of using non-traditional methods is learning how to optimize them. Keep reporting your results; it's good information to add to the knowledge bank, and help us understand how the different parameters affect our brewing.

Brew on

RM-MN said:

It's time for some intermediate results. I've sampled the 10 minute and the 5 minute mash batches (one each day) and the 10 minute one is pleasant tasting but at this point lacks heading. The 5 minute mash one tastes more watery and has no head at all. More sampling in the upcoming weeks after which I will report on those findings.

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It's time for another update. I tried the beer that had had only a 5 minute mash again and while I would say it has improved quite a bit from the extra time to mature it still lacks body and flavor. It does pour a small head but not as much as my other beers with longer mashes and the head doesn't last as long.

RM-MN said:

It's time for another update. I tried the beer that had had only a 5 minute mash again and while I would say it has improved quite a bit from the extra time to mature it still lacks body and flavor. It does pour a small head but not as much as my other beers with longer mashes and the head doesn't last as long.

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So, that being said... what is the shortest time you're comfortable with on your system? 20 mins?

The beers that I have mashed for 20 minutes seem to have full conversion and extraction of flavors so I won't advocate any less than that. Most of the time I will advocate at least 30 minutes since most people don't get the grain milled as fine as mine and may need the extra time.

RM-MN said:

The beers that I have mashed for 20 minutes seem to have full conversion and extraction of flavors so I won't advocate any less than that. Most of the time I will advocate at least 30 minutes since most people don't get the grain milled as fine as mine and may need the extra time.

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Just completed a step mash today with the following rests. A Kolsch with 85% Pilsner malt, 5% wheat malt, 5%Munich 10L and 5% Acid malt. Mash pH 5.37

145F for 20 mins
153F for 15 mins
158F for 10 mins
168F for 5 mins

I carried out a conversion test after the first rest to find no trace of starch present. I was very surprised given the low temperature. I mention it just to share my surprise at the 20 minute test result. I've been playing with mash times of late and this was the first multi step mash I have tried.

Roller mill crush at a very narrow setting (coarse corn-meal like). Looking for a nice dry finish on this one.

Why not try mashing hotter?
Try mashing at 156 or 158 or 160, instead of what you normally mash at (150-152?)

You can still mash for a short time, but at some point you should get results you like.

The ultra fine crush is an advantage of BIAB over traditional methods, unless the fermentability gets in the way. And I still think you can mash hotter to offset that, unless the grain is so fine it's flour and the conversion is taking place in a minute.

Another alternative is crush coarser.