Interesting German Brewing PDF

So my first Low O2 beer is fermenting away nicely. (Actually it is the second, but I screwed up so many things in the first attempt implementing too many new processes that I scrapped it and started over).

I was initially a skeptic of the process, and was turned off by the tone and implications of the original paper (PDF if you will, but it is basically a white paper). Then I did some research and decided instead of attacking the idea from a position of ignorance, I would give it an honest try and form my own opinions. Once the beer is done (in about six weeks or so), I will do a full writeup with conclusions from an objective point of view, as I am neither hostile to the idea not a fanboy (yet).

It is a German (Bavarian) Pils.
I pulled a sample yesterday and it is the most delicious wort I have ever tasted. It instantly brought back childhood memories of eating Corn Flakes with sugar on it (I guess you could say Frosted Flakes, but my house wasn't that fancy growing up ;-)
Before you scoff and say it's just DMS, no, it isn't. This is nothing like DMS, and not merely reminiscent of Corn Flakes cereal, but dead-on. There is the usual sweetness from raw/fermenting wort, but this is more like honey than the muted malt sweetness I usually get, and the flavor of cereal grains is unmistakable.

We'll see how the beer turns out, but initial impressions are...impressive.

I am going to repeat the process with a Kellerbier hopefully this weekend.

Prost!

Just thought I'd share my experience with IPA's and my modified LoDO process.

I was both fascinated and skeptical when I read the PDF and this thread several months back. I was most interested in how some of the techniques might be transferred to improving some issues with my IPA's. I was finding oxidation in my IPA's, not noticeable to others but I could taste it. All of them started out fine but the hop aroma would become muted after a month or so and some would darken a bit after a month or two and those developed a caramel-type flavor despite having no caramel in the grain bill.

I know much of what folks have focused on is reducing cold side oxidation with spunding but I figured that's no good if there's something causing my problem on the hot side so I wanted to focus on that first. I do boil all my water (temporary hardness issues) for mash and sparge so I figured at least I was getting rid of the oxygen in the mash & sparge water. I narrowed down the issue with my worst oxidized beers to be that if I was boiling off too much or had a boilover, I'd heat up some water to say 180F and add it to the boil while I still had about a half hour before cooling. Even though the volume of unboiled water I'd add was only a quart or two, it was enough to cause oxidation later on. So I don't do that anymore. But that only took care of the worst of the oxidized IPA's, what could I do for the less oxidized IPA's? NaMeta to the rescue.

I do have a copper IC and I'm not really interested in getting rid of it at this point so I decided to see using NaMeta in the mash and sparge would help scavenge more oxygen. For my last couple of IPA's (5 gallons) I've added a tablet (crushed of course) to the mash water and half a tablet to the sparge water. I'm not doing the spunding but fermenting in a carboy and adding my dry hops a couple of days into fermentation. I've been experimenting with differing amounts of NaMeta to the keg but even with as much as a half a tablet for a 2.5g keg, I've not noticed any sulfur. The beer holds onto the hop aroma and the beer isn't changing color even when it's been in the keg for over 2 months!!

I know all of this doesn't follow the PDF exactly but my point is that even small changes can make a big difference in your IPA's. If you look at all potential hot side oxidation issues first and eliminate as many of those as is possible with your system you may find that you've improved your beer significantly. I know many are firm in their belief that you must implement ALL of the LoDO techniques to see an improvement in your beer but I've found what works for me and improves my beer.

I'm very thankful to the OP of this thread for sharing the PDF!

Hey no problem! At some point everyone needs to taylor it for themselves.

I'm currently drinking the best Helles I've ever made, thanks to low oxygen processes.

The first time I brewed a low O2 lager I was a bit concerned when I tasted some samples from the fermentor and it was drier than a popcorn fart. The 1.009 FG tasted like it was 0.995 FG! It does mellow and smooth with lagering.

You were most likely used to tasting the cloyingly sweet oxidized caramalts. Congrats on the beer!

rabeb25 said:

You were most likely used to tasting the cloyingly sweet oxidized caramalts. Congrats on the beer!

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Even compared to Weihenstephaner Original (my favorite Helles), mine seemed a bit drier on the finish. It's not astringent by any means. In fact it's downright superb. And, like I said, that perception does fade with extended lagering.

Well WO is brewed with 8% carahell. So depending on what your recipe was, that's probably a factor as well

Ah, that'd be it, then. Thanks, and thanks again for sharing your research!

Tiber_Brew said:

I'm currently drinking the best Helles I've ever made, thanks to low oxygen processes.

The first time I brewed a low O2 lager I was a bit concerned when I tasted some samples from the fermentor and it was drier than a popcorn fart. The 1.009 FG tasted like it was 0.995 FG! It does mellow and smooth with lagering.

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Congrats, and glad to see you see some merits in the process. Let us know when you try it on your kolsch.

And I'm enjoying a fantastic Pilsner at the moment myself, low DO. Supremely enjoyable.

I just made my Pils recipe (slightly adjusted) with LoDO, and the Kölsch is next. To no surprise, LoDO has taken already great recipes and made them world class beers.

I've been using a tad of light Munich for my pale lagers, but it sounds like carapils will have to make into my next brew.

Tiber_Brew said:

I just made my Pils recipe (slightly adjusted) with LoDO, and the Kölsch is next. To no surprise, LoDO has taken already great recipes and made them world class beers.

I've been using a tad of light Munich for my pale lagers, but it sounds like carapils will have to make into my next brew.

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I would caution against using any sulfites if you plan on using K-97. I had a couple very sulfury beers with this yeast and low oxygen brewing practices; for reference, my dosage was 30ppm and 25ppm (both very sulfury, the higher dosage being the worst).

I plan on sticking with WLP029 - any issue with that strain also? I could dial the SMB way down or omit altogether if there's risk of a sulfur bomb.

I have used 30ppm and 20ppm with 2565. There was a touch of sulfur with 30, but with 20 it was fantastic. I went 95% pils, 5% carahell ( which isa recipe professional German brewing literature sites).
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Tiber_Brew said:

I just made my Pils recipe (slightly adjusted) with LoDO, and the Kölsch is next. To no surprise, LoDO has taken already great recipes and made them world class beers.

I've been using a tad of light Munich for my pale lagers, but it sounds like carapils will have to make into my next brew.

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I wouldn't use carapils, well I mean you can, but it's not going to give you a real flavor contribution. 10% light Munich is not out of place for authentic.

Tiber_Brew said:

I plan on sticking with WLP029 - any issue with that strain also? I could dial the SMB way down or omit altogether if there's risk of a sulfur bomb.

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I've been trying to maintain a list of yeast strains that have had good/meh/poor results in low oxygen brewing based on user feedback (yeast list link). Unfortunately, WLP029 is not listed so either hasn't had any feedback on it in a low oxygen brewing environment or I've missed the feedback. Either way, I would do like rabab25 suggests and aim on the lower end of ale-safe (20ppm) and that should keep you in pretty safe territory to not result in a "sulfur bomb" beer. It'll provide you a low level of protection against oxygen ingress throughout the mashing/boil process and will likely leave you with almost no sulfites going into fermentation (depending on tightness of low oxygen brewing system/process of course).

rabeb25 said:

I have used 30ppm and 20ppm with 2565. There was a touch of sulfur with 30, but with 20 it was fantastic. I went 95% pils, 5% carahell ( which isa recipe professional German brewing literature sites).
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How do you think that will work with the Saflager W-34/70?

Described as, "The famous "Weihenstephan" yeast from Germany. A widely used yeast strain that gives beer a clean finish and lets the malt really come through."

This dry yeast is not on the "approved" list yet. I may have to give it a try.
MS

It's not on approved because we strongly dislike the current dry lager strains in general. But as always give it a try and see what you think.

Just to put my perspective on the yeast list out there:

To me it's just a curation of posts from folks who have done low oxygen beers utilizing sulfites, and what their experience has been with the yeast strain they used in terms of residual sulfur in the finished beer. I would prefer it not be thought of as an "approved yeast strain list" for low oxygen brewing, and more just a guide of what we've seen reports on and how it played out for those folks (it's a list of isolated observations). It's mainly been populated by the reports from folks on HBT, AHA forum and LOB forum, and in all likelihood is missing several strains that have been reported on. Please consult it with a grain of salt and open-mind, and recognize it's VERY MUCH a work-in-progress. I think the biggest take away from it is: if a yeast strain has potential for sulfur production on it's own then use a very deft hand when adding sulfites to that brew, especially in regards to ale strains. The second biggest take away, from my perspective, is the ppm dosage people have reported because it sure seems clear that some strains are good at certain lower levels where they may not be so good at higher levels.

As far as W34/70, I've seen plenty of folks using this strain (primarily in standard process brewing) who like what it brings to the table. I would not count it out as a viable option. With that said, I've never used it because I feel I have more/better options available in liquid form, but I would not shy away from it (like I have MJ Workhorse ) if I had it in my yeast stock.

34/70 was searchable over on the german brewing facebook page. There is enough information there for me to give this one a try.

Thank you rabeb25 and stpug for your feedback. I will have to see what my LHBS can order in regards to yeast. He orders from BSG, I'm just seeing Fermentis yeasts only.

No problem. Bsg carries s23, w34/70, and s-189. I have a few hundred grams of s-189 packaged that I would be happy to sell you for the cost of shipping. I have them in ~50gram packs.

Tiber_Brew said:

I plan on sticking with WLP029 - any issue with that strain also? I could dial the SMB way down or omit altogether if there's risk of a sulfur bomb.

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I've been drinking an IPA made with WLP029 and no sulfur issues. See my recent post for what I used for SMB. Have 2 more beers using the yeast that aren't ready yet, an IPA where I changed up the grain bill and a Kolsch I just made yesterday.

brewstergalVT said:

I've been drinking an IPA made with WLP029 and no sulfur issues. See my recent post for what I used for SMB. Have 2 more beers using the yeast that aren't ready yet, an IPA where I changed up the grain bill and a Kolsch I just made yesterday.

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Nice! I added you/029 to the list. I couldn't find your post about what dosage for SMB so if you happen to know off-hand then I'll update that as well on the yeast strain list. Also, any follow-up on other wlp029 low oxygen batches you brew would be helpful as well - I only mention this because sometimes sulfur is hidden in big hoppy beers (a little sulfur can even be complementary at low levels in an IPA, IMO).

stpug said:

Nice! I added you/029 to the list. I couldn't find your post about what dosage for SMB so if you happen to know off-hand then I'll update that as well on the yeast strain list. Also, any follow-up on other wlp029 low oxygen batches you brew would be helpful as well - I only mention this because sometimes sulfur is hidden in big hoppy beers (a little sulfur can even be complementary at low levels in an IPA, IMO).

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I add one campden tablet crushed in the mash water (boiled & cooled) so for the IPA's it's 25mg/L, for the Kolsch it was 30mg/L. I do sparge and go with a half tablet in the sparge so roughly 10mg/L.

Yes, I've been wondering if there is sulfur under the hops that won't quit. I'll post what I find with the Kolsch when it's ready.

giraffe said:

Ok im intrigued. One question though, how do you prevent oxidation during the decoction?
Actually two questions, is a stainless immersion chiller sufficient, or what do you recommend for cooling?

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In Die Bierbrauerei, Vol 2, Narziss and Back released data about oxygen intake during various stages in the process. They suggested strongly to do all transfers from below in a system properly bled with degassed water.

I doubt however, that decoctions will be beneficial to home brewers, especially when considering the downside of excessive wort oxygenation.

For eg the Ayinger brewery almost stopped decoctions all together and their products are quite respectable.

Immersion chillers are perfectly adequate for cooling.

I use an all stainless heat exchanger (incidentally manufactured in Bavaria) in conjunction with a frequency controlled stainless pump -- which speeds up this section in my process a little.

Gut Sud!

I've done two LoDO batches of Kölsch with WLP029, one at 36.5mg/l, the other at 19mg/l. Both were lightly hopped and neither had any detectable sulfur notes. A great yeast and my favorite for many years. However this strains tendency to flocculate fairly suddenly makes timing to transfer and spund more tricky. The wyeast Kölsch strain seems to be more forgiving in this regard and with a goodly amount of time at 0-2c drops nice and bright.

Edelst0ff said:

I use an all stainless heat exchanger (incidentally manufactured in Bavaria) in conjunction with a frequency controlled stainless pump -- which speeds up this section in my process a little.

Gut Sud!

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That looks amazing. Where did procure that?

rabeb25 said:

I have used 30ppm and 20ppm with 2565. There was a touch of sulfur with 30, but with 20 it was fantastic. I went 95% pils, 5% carahell ( which isa recipe professional German brewing literature sites).
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rabeb25 said:

I wouldn't use carapils, well I mean you can, but it's not going to give you a real flavor contribution. 10% light Munich is not out of place for authentic.

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Seems I was mistaken; I thought carapils and carahell were similar, but after some quick googling, I see that they are not. I'll go with carahell per your recommendation. (Excuse my ignorance - I've not used either before.)

Hey no worries! I love carahell, its probably my favorite caramalt.

schematix said:

That looks amazing. Where did procure that?

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It's a smallish company in Bavaria, LUPI. They also have an eBay presence

http://www.ebay.co.uk/sch/lupi72/m.html?_nkw=&_armrs=1&_ipg=&_from=

I am sure you can find similar near your locality.