Belgian Dark Recipe Feedback

Dear Homebrewers

I only brewed one kit-batch before and that one turned out technically fine but quite boring.
Now I`d like to try out a self made recipe
I`m still very unknowledgable and welcome every criticism possible!

The general idea is to get a beer which:
- is very dark and has roasted aroma
- has belgian yeastiness
- is fruity/citrusy
- has about 5-8%

The preliminary recipe for a 19l batch looks like this.

1.5kg of dark liquid malt extract
1kg of dark dried malt extract (should be about the same as 1.6k of LME)

500g of caramel malt (Caraaroma)
250g of roasted malt (Carafa Type 1)

1 package of Safbrew Abbaye yeast

37g of pelleted cascade hops for bittering during the boil
13g of pelleted cascade hops for dry hopping during secondary Fermentation

Let me share some thoughts I had for the recipe.
- I missed body in the beer-kit, for which dried malt extract is supposedly better for Body
- The caramel malt should be nice for the body, the roasted malt for the colour and the roast Aroma
- the dry hopping should infuse some cirtusy Aroma

Some questions I am having:
- Will the recipe more or less result in a beer?
- Is one package (ca. 11.5g) enough yeast?
- Is the cascade ok as a bittering hops?
- Will the beer be dark with this recipe?
- Is this much cascade strong enough for dry hopping such a dark beer?
- I will probably be able for the temperature to start at 22°C and slowly drop to 19°C during primary fermentation. Could that work?

Thanks a lot for any typ!

Tulbi

Are you shooting for a Belgian Dark Strong Ale or Belgianish Stout?

Your description is a little bit of a mish mash. If you're going for a Belgian Dark Strong, roasty and citrusy are not something you typically find. You might have better luck by finding a commercial brew you like and finding a clone.

BlueHouseBrewhaus said:

Your description is a little bit of a mish mash. If you're going for a Belgian Dark Strong, roasty and citrusy are not something you typically find. You might have better luck by finding a commercial brew you like and finding a clone.

Click to expand...

This.

If your looking for s Dark Strong then your recipe needs major work.

"Belgian" stouts are a lost cause in my opinion. Belgian yeast and roasty don't belong together.

Either way I'd steer clear of dry yeast for Belgian anything. A forum member had a success recently with s-33 in a Dark strong though. Generally I'd say go liquid every time for Belgian yeast.

So what is it your aiming for?

I brew a lot of Belgians so take this how you want since it is my opinion, but it is your brew.

That recipe will not really be anything like a Belgian dark.

First do not use the dark extract because they use a pretty big portion of caramel malts in them so it will not ferment down low like a good Belgian beer should. For example I looked up the makeup of Breiss dark extract.

CBW® Special Dark Adobe PDF download LME PDF
Lovibond Flavor Ingredients
90° Sweet,
intense malty
24% Base Malt
25% Wheat Malt
29% Caramel Malt 60L
19% Chocolate Malt
3% Roasted Barley

Click to expand...

.

no Belgian beer should have that much caramel malt in it. That plus the 500 g of caramel malt in your recipe would be over the top sweet for a Belgian. And the roasted malt is out of place unless you are going for a Belgian style stout.

You would be much better using pilsen extract for the bulk of your fermentables, then get the color and flavor from steeping grains and dark candi syrup. You could use some Special B (4-6 oz would be a good starting place) and a lb or more of D-180 syrup and get a very dark almost black beer that is more like a Belgian. The syrup will help getting the beer to finish lower to be more like a Belgian beer should be. Your current recipe would probably not finish under 1.030 and not somewhere around 1.010 like a good Belgian should.

Also I find that citrusy hops and Belgian yeast do not go together ( at least for my taste) and they fight with each other. So much of the flavor of a good Belgian is derived from the yeast. Citrusy hops overpower that yeast flavor. Noble hops are more in line with the flavors of a Belgian.

You also have your fermentation schedule backward. You should start off at a lower temp and slowly ramp the temp up. Belgian yeasts do not like to be cooled off after they start or they could stall out. You do not want that, you want the beer to fully ferment out.

Hope this helps, just remember it is my opinion and it is your beer

Thanks for the quick answers!

The beer I imagine is probably something like a Sint Bernardus Abt 12 (which is my favourite beer ) with a bit of a stronger roast/coffee aroma (like I noticed in many Russian Imperial Stouts) and citrusy/fruity aromas (similar to the ones in `Brooklyn East IPA`).

I honestly don`t know if such a mix is even theoretically possible, and being a beginner I am also satisfied with an outcome that fits 10% of my expectations.
So a dark beer that tastes more or less like a dark beer and has some refreshing note (maybe I could do that with lemon zest during Fermentation?) would already be incredibly good ^^

Thanks for the tip to search for clone-recipes.
http://www.candisyrup.com/uploads/6/0/3/5/6035776/st._bernardus_abt_12_clone_-_trial_001a.pdf
I found this one for the Abt 12 but it`s too difficult for me at the moment(and I`d probably be unable to find half of the ingredients).

Thank you beergolf for the very detailed hints you gave me

Would you also agree with RPIScotty, that belgian liquid yeast would be the way to go?
I would be able to get `Wyeast 1762, Belgian Abbey Ale` or `Wyeast 1214, Belgian Abbey` allthough they would be quite pricey (10$).

I can`t seem to find a way to get `Special B` for my country. Do you know if `Abbey Malt EBC 40-50`(possibly from Weyerman) could do? What would this addition change in terms of flavour/aroma?

To not let it cool down I`d have to find a way. I heard wrapping the bucket in a sleeping bag can help.

beergolf said:

I brew a lot of Belgians so take this how you want since it is my opinion, but it is your brew.

That recipe will not really be anything like a Belgian dark.

First do not use the dark extract because they use a pretty big portion of caramel malts in them so it will not ferment down low like a good Belgian beer should. For example I looked up the makeup of Breiss dark extract.

.

no Belgian beer should have that much caramel malt in it. That plus the 500 g of caramel malt in your recipe would be over the top sweet for a Belgian. And the roasted malt is out of place unless you are going for a Belgian style stout.

You would be much better using pilsen extract for the bulk of your fermentables, then get the color and flavor from steeping grains and dark candi syrup. You could use some Special B (4-6 oz would be a good starting place) and a lb or more of D-180 syrup and get a very dark almost black beer that is more like a Belgian. The syrup will help getting the beer to finish lower to be more like a Belgian beer should be. Your current recipe would probably not finish under 1.030 and not somewhere around 1.010 like a good Belgian should.

Also I find that citrusy hops and Belgian yeast do not go together ( at least for my taste) and they fight with each other. So much of the flavor of a good Belgian is derived from the yeast. Citrusy hops overpower that yeast flavor. Noble hops are more in line with the flavors of a Belgian.

You also have your fermentation schedule backward. You should start off at a lower temp and slowly ramp the temp up. Belgian yeasts do not like to be cooled off after they start or they could stall out. You do not want that, you want the beer to fully ferment out.

Hope this helps, just remember it is my opinion and it is your beer

Click to expand...

Once again ^^ This.

I think the OP is looking more for a Stout Brewer with "Belgian" yeast and American C hops.

Lots of good advice here. My take is keep it simple. The best Belgian dark strongs that I've made were basically Bel Pils, a couple of lbs. of D-180, noble hops, and good liquid Bel yeast. Adding more ingredients does not necessarily make for more complexities.

Tulbi said:

Thanks for the quick answers!

The beer I imagine is probably something like a Sint Bernardus Abt 12 (which is my favourite beer ) with a bit of a stronger roast/coffee aroma (like I noticed in many Russian Imperial Stouts) and citrusy/fruity aromas (similar to the ones in `Brooklyn East IPA`).

I honestly don`t know if such a mix is even theoretically possible, and being a beginner I am also satisfied with an outcome that fits 10% of my expectations.
So a dark beer that tastes more or less like a dark beer and has some refreshing note (maybe I could do that with lemon zest during Fermentation?) would already be incredibly good ^^

Thanks for the tip to search for clone-recipes.
http://www.candisyrup.com/uploads/6/0/3/5/6035776/st._bernardus_abt_12_clone_-_trial_001a.pdf
I found this one for the Abt 12 but it`s too difficult for me at the moment(and I`d probably be unable to find half of the ingredients).

Click to expand...

You can convert that recipe to extract, but it is a pretty high gravity beer and more of a challenge to the new brewer. A brew that big requires a big starter and a dose of oxygen at the beginning of fermentation to help it ferment out.I would suggest scaling it back some to make it easier for you. You can still get some of the same flavors in the brew, but it will be easier for you to handle. Grain can converted to extract. 1lb of grain= .6 lb of DME. So for that recipe 16X.6=9.6 lb of dme. I would consider cutting that back to about 7 lbs for a more manageable brew for a newer brewer. The recipe calls for about 2 oz of de-bittered black, so you could just steep that in 150 degree water for about 20 minutes and add that to the boil. But really it is going add no flavor and only slight color, so you could omit it and be fine.yOu do not mention where you are but the candi syrup is probably available if you search. I would also consider starting the fermentation without the syrup and then adding it after a few days. This will stress the yeast less. Add some after about 2-3 days and then add the last after a few more days. Since you are using extract you will want to squeak out every last point of attenuation and this may help.

The two yeast you mention would work fine for the brew, just not be the same. 1214 (Chimay yeast) is fruitier than 1762 (Roqufort yeast) The yeast that more close matches is WY 3787 if you can get it.

You can simplify the fermentation schedule and still get a good brew. Cool the wort to about 65, pitch the yeast and then let the temp slowly rise on it's own. When fermentation slows, wrap the fermenter up to keep it from cooling down too much. Definitely use a blow off tube for the first part of fermentation.

Hope this helps.

Your desired beer is a clash of flavors.

A good BDSA with extract would have Pilsner DME, some CaraMunich/Special B and some Dark syrup.

WY3787 is one of the best. It would make a good "house" Belgian yeast.

Belgian styles are tough with extract because so much of it is about proper attenuation. That's where AG shines. Mashing for attenuation is key for Belgian styles.

You could make a very tasty beer with the following:

Pilsner/Pale DME
Steeped Belgian Specialty Grains (CaraMunich, Aromatic, Special B or equivalents. See grain substitution charts.)
D45, D90 or D180 syrups.
1214, 1762 or 3787 (or WLP equivalents)

You may want some extra syrup to try and ensure proper attenuation.

You could also try a partial mash to reduce the amount of extract needed.

Oh man, you`re (all) too good... thank you

I`m from switzerland so I can only really get stuff from two online stores (and I`m trying to keep costs a bit down).

The only pilsen malt extract I found was this one:
http://www.bierbrauzubehoer.ch/prod.../weyermann-malzextrakt-bavarian-pilsner-4-0kg
But it is a bavarian one.

At the same store I could also get the WY3787 and all the hops

For candy syrup I can only find this one
http://www.bierbrauzubehoer.ch/prod...er/1191/kandiszucker-fluessig-1-liter-1-350kg
And it is very much unclear what it exactly is or if it would be similar to the D-180. (It just says that it is candy syrup like the belgian brewers use and it will `give your beer that special something`.)
D-180 has an EBC of about 360, while this one has only 180-220.
Maybe I can just take the whole liter and have it for D-180 and D-90?

Beergolf writes, I should only use 7lb but the pilsener-jug would be about 8lb (I`m assuming you considered this seperate from the syrups.) and it says that the liquid yeast is also enough for 40-50 Liters.
So I think I would just make an accordingly bigger batch:
The malt extract would be 15% more so I could just make a 20*1.15= 23l
batch (and adapt the amount of hops aswell of course).

Does that sound like more or less like a plan? ^^

@RPIScotty:
You are saying, that I could cultivate the yeast? I`m not sure if that would be too complicated and costly for me. I think I would utilize that yeast at most 3 times a year.

I guess AG is too complicated for me at the moment. I know almost nothing about attenuation.

I will look into grain substitution charts, thanks a lot for the hint!

Would this DME be suitable as a pale base?
http://www.bierbrauzubehoer.ch/prod...ver-fluessig/71/malzextrakt-pulver-hell-1.0kg

Thanks again to both of you for taking so much time to help me

You should be good with these ingredients. I can't read the websites but I think i get the idea.

The extract you listed is fine. German pils vs Belgian pils will not make any difference that you could taste. I mentioned DME (Which is dry malt extract) the link you show is LME ( liquid malt extract) The conversion for LME is slightly different. 1lb base malt=.6 DME or .75 LME. So you use more LME for the same amount of fermentables. So when I mentioned 7 lbs I was thinking of DME. So if you use 8 lbs of the lme and 2 lbs of the syrup you should get an OG of about 1.072 for a 5 gallon batch. ( sorry I am not used to thinking in metric measurements). iF you can look up what caramel malts you can get maybe we can add some steeping grains to the recipe. Special B comes to mind but Caramel 120 could work also.

Using 3787 and if you get good attenuation you should end up with about an 8% ABV beer. The yeast is really not good for that big of a batch. For a 5 gallon batch you will still need to make a starter, use two packs , or make the wort without the syrup and add the syrup after a few days.

The hop schedule will need some adjusting depending on your final recipe. We can punch in the hops to our brew software and give some help there when your recipe is finalized.

I made an extract with steeping grain recipe as one of my early brews that came out great, so it can be done. We will help you make a nice beer.

I'll throw this out there:

From what you originally describe, maybe a nice big stout, fermented with Belgian yeast and using C hops would knock more things off your wish list.

Roast flavors? Check.

Belgiany yeast character? Check.

Big, bold American hop aroma and flavor? Check.

Otherwise the advice your getting is solid. Great beers can be made with extract plus grains.

You could potentially culture the yeast up from bottle dregs but it's likely cheaper to just buy it.

@RPIScotty

I don`t quite understand. I thought that you think this combination would lead to a clash of flavours?
At the moment I am a bit hooked on the idea of making an Abt 12 clone But the `citrusy -belgian- stout` may be a good idea for an other Project.

@beergolf

Do you think a `pale ale` DME would be good aswell? I just found out that the other online store has D-180 and D-90 but not the pilsen-LME I mentioned.
Otherwise I could also get a pale LME from `brewferm there (e.g. two 3.3lb cans). Brewferm being about belgian beer might be a good fit here.
(I`d rather not order from both online stores because each delivery costs me 14$.)

To keep costs down I would prefer to only use one yeast pack. If I understand you correctly I have two options:
- make a smaller batch (how much smaller would that be)
- start fermentation without the syrups and add them step by step
I would be fine with both options, allthough getting a bit more beer (option2) is also always nice

Tulbi said:

@RPIScotty



I don`t quite understand. I thought that you think this combination would lead to a clash of flavours?

At the moment I am a bit hooked on the idea of making an Abt 12 clone But the `citrusy -belgian- stout` may be a good idea for another project.

Click to expand...

I meant "clash of flavors" in reference to a Belgian Dark Strong with any kind of roast flavors and C hops.

For the ABT:

I'd say keep it simple. Maybe partial mash some Pilsner malt and a few specialty grains (CaraMunich, Special B (or dark caramel malts), aromatic, etc.). Make up the rest of your gravity points with Pale DME/LME. Use the darkest candi syrup you can get your hands on at around 15% of the recipe. CSIs recipe hints at D90 in addition to D180 and that's a good combo in a beer like this. Honestly, I would add the syrup to the boil. Some people prefer it post boil in the fermentor but I don't see any reason not to add it to the boil, with the possibl exception, as others have pointed out, that it may affect attenuation.

Give it a nice "Shaken, not Stirred" starter of Westmalle yeast, adequate O2 and let the thing rip. As long as you can get adequate attenuation (this is the key) it should taste stellar.

Ok, I try to give you an updated recipe taking as much as possible into consideration. (These should be all ingredients I can get my hands on.)

Primary fermentables:
5.5lb of pale DME
2.2lb of pilsen malt grain
(This should together translate to about the same as 7lb of DME.)

Special Grain:
xy amount of `CaraMunich Dark`

Candy Syrups:
16oz D-180
16oz D-90

Yeast:
1 package of WY3787

Hops:
1oz Tettnang 3.5%
1oz Saaz 3.4%
1oz Styrian Goldings 5.4%

Now I would get to the steps, I`m quite new to Mashing/Steeping and probably have wrong ideas about it.

- Put the DME together with the crushed Pilsen Malt together with water (as much as the batch size plus xy amount that I think will be boiled off).
- Add the specialty grain/caramunich in a bag and bring the pan to a boil.
- Take out the bag with the specialty grain shortly before the boil.
- Boil the wort for 30 minutes, add the Saaz
- Another 40 minutes later the Styrian Goldings, then the Tettnang 10 min. later.
- Stop the boil after 10 minutes.
(- Maybe add some of the candy syrup now.)

- Let the wort cool down to about 65F.
- Prepare the yeast (not sure how but will figure out).
- Aerate the wort with a whisk. (Best I can do is maybe an electric whisk.)
- Add yeast to the wort and stirr well.

- Let the temperature of the wort slowly (in about 7 days?) rise to 73F.
(- Maybe add the candy syrup in steps here.)
- Control attenuation.
(I have no idea what that exactly means and how to do this. I`d have to read some literature.)

- When there is no more Krausen and no more bubbles, transfer the batch to a secondary Fermenter.
(- Maybe reclaim some of the yeast at this point.)

- After about 2 weeks bottle the beer after having added xy oz of beet sugar per gallon.
- Store it for about two weeks at 18-22° for carbonation.
- Move it to cellar.


That`s just me trying to bring together all the best information I think I have.

[EDIT: I think I understand what you mean with `attenuation` now, just keeping track of specific gravity and changing stuff when it doesn`t follow a nice curve. If that is more or less right I only have to find out, how the curve is supposed to look like (there is a graph in `The Complete Joy of Homebrewing` called Yeast Activity Graphabout this if I`m not wrong) and what measures I could take etc.]

A few things:

The Pilsner malt needs to be mashed independent of the DME. The DME will be added to the boil. I would mash the Pilsner malt with your specialty malt.

You don't need to secondary. Use hydrometer readings to determine terminal gravity, not a predetermined amount of time. Don't judge complete fermentation by airlock activity or secession of krausen.

Control temperature in the 64-68 range for the first 2-3 days. Then let it free rise.

Attenuation is simply a percentage measure of the amount the beer ferments out. Say you start at 1.090 and finish at 1.010. That's 88% attenuation.

OK you are getting a lot closer.

Like RPIScotty mentioned the pilsen malt need to be mashed.

Here is a good thread that explains partial mashing... https://www.homebrewtalk.com/showthread.php?t=75231

It is basically a more time and temp controlled steep. So mash the pils and caramunich at about 150 for an hour. Drain and start your boil. You can add somemof the DME at the beginningof th boil and some at the end. You can add the syrup at the end of the boil if you make a starter.

They are easy. Boil up some water and DME. ( 100g of DME per 1000ml of water) cool and add the yeast. You can use anything that can be sanitized , jar, flask, big bottle etc. Cover with foil. Shake it up everytime you walk by and the yeast will multiply to give you enough yeast to properly do the job.

How big is your boil kettle.? That will determine the process somewhat and we can adjust the hopping schedule accordingly once we know all of the information.

I agree that there is no need to rack to a secondary. Just give enough time in the primary to make sure it is done.

Bottle it up with the correct amount of priming sugar ( there are good calculators online) It will take at least three weeks to carb up fully. No need to rush this stage anyway, because dark Belgian beers like some age on them for the flavor to really come together.

Tulbi said:

[...] Primary fermentables:
5.5lb of pale DME
2.2lb of pilsen malt grain
(This should together translate to about the same as 7lb of DME.)

[...]

Candy Syrups:
16oz D-180
16oz D-90

Yeast:
1 package of WY3787

[...]

Click to expand...

Although mashing some Pilsner malt (milled grain) would be a good experience and possibly a route you'll be taking in the (near) future, I think you can use all Pale DME and not mash anything for this beer to keep it simpler. Mashing is not difficult, it's just another layer. Just steep your specialty malts.

Use 6.5-7 pounds of Pale DME to get to your intended gravity, before what the sugar syrups will add.

If you want, you can make your own sugar syrups. To get them as dark as a D-90 takes about an hour to an hour and a half. To get to a D-180 darkness is very tricky, as it will likely turn into tar before that.

Most DME comes in 3# bags here, not sure what you can get there. Use some of the DME to make a good yeast starter in a 3-4 liter glass container, like a wine jug, clear glass is best so you can see what's going on. Reason is, even if your yeast is fresh one smack pack is a bit skimpy. Chances are the yeast is 2-3 months old and contains fewer viable cells. A larger, healthy starter makes for better beer in the end. Plus you know for sure the yeast works!

For quite a few reasons, definitely add the D-90/D180 sugar syrups to the fermentor after a few days (~5) of good fermentation have passed. Just maintain good sanitation practices.

The packaging on the syrups should be sanitary. Just sanitize the pouch briefly before putting it in fermentor.

With a large amount of DME, adding them in the fermentor may be the way to go.

I add them in the kettle for AG Belgians.

Thanks for the good advice!

I only have two relatively small 10.5 Liter kettles. I think I could at most boil 8.5l (2.3 gallons) in it.
After reading the article about partial mashing: Could I mash the grains (in a mashing bag) in 4 Liters and then transfer it to the other kettle with the same amount of water for a few minutes?
Then mix the two kettles and seperate them again, add about 3 liters each (now I would have 7liters each)?
Then boil it as discussed and fill up the rest of the batch volume with cold sterile water?

Or does it make more sense to do the boil in one kettle (about 8 liters/ 2.1 gallons and then dillute it?

About not doing the secondary fermentation:
I found it to be practical in my last beer because I was able to seperate a lot of the yeast from the beer, and then I was able to put the priming sugar in the whole batch before bottling.

How do I ensure that there is the priming sugar but isn`t too much yeast in the bottle at the end.

EDIT:
Quick question, can there also be too much yeast? Because making a yeast starter seems fairly simple, except if I should get to some specific amount of yeast.

Maybe try a small batch. Do a 2 gallon batch to see if you like the recipe. Then Scale up your pot size.

Hm, thanks for the idea.
Wouldn`t it take months to see wether I like the recipe (supposedly the beer needs some time in the cellar).
Do you think I could reuse the caramunich and the candy syrup in other projects before it goes bad?
And what about the yeast, is there an easy way to freeze it and use it 1-2 months later?

I mean, if you people think the brew has a very good chance of becoming drinkable, I would maybe prefer a 5+ gallon batch, also because I could keep the per-bottle-cost a bit lower.

Tulbi said:

Hm, thanks for the idea.

Wouldn`t it take months to see wether I like the recipe (supposedly the beer needs some time in the cellar).

Do you think I could reuse the caramunich and the candy syrup in other projects before it goes bad?

And what about the yeast, is there an easy way to freeze it and use it 1-2 months later?



I mean, if you people think the brew has a very good chance of becoming drinkable, I would maybe prefer a 5+ gallon batch, also because I could keep the per-bottle-cost a bit lower.

Click to expand...

The idea of cellaring is incredibly overblown in my opinion. Yes, some beers, Belgian styles included, can benefit from aging to mellow out some of the alcohol heat and other more pronounced flavor characteristics from the yeast. On the other hand, if your process is good, you provided the right conditions for fermentation and the beer attenuated properly, there is no reason why you can't drink them right away. Will they likely improve a bit with age? Of course, but that's no reason not to enjoy them young. Besides, you'll know even in a young beer whether you enjoy the flavor or not. It's not like aging turns it into a different beer. Aging merely mellows out some of the more pronounced flavor characteristics and smooths any alcohol heat present in the young beer. I disagree wholeheartedly with this ubiquitous insistence that beers received arbitrary cellaring. If you like the way it tastes up front then drink it young.

As long as you store things properly you can re-use the specialty grains and syrups. A better idea for you may be to split the batch into two ~2 gallon batches. Make a Belgian Dark Strong and a Dubbel. Recipes would be roughly the same with a reduction in the CaraMunich and Syrups for the Dubbel.

If you split the batch you can split the yeast pack and pitch half into each or just pitch the split pack into 2 small starters. This would kill 2 birds with one stone for you: you get 2 separate batches of beer equivalent to ~4-5 gallons and you can use up your ingredients.

As far as cost goes, IMO if your using extract there really isn't a way to keep the cost down. Extract is fairly expensive compared to grain. But, you should keep in my mind that in a day and age where most North Americans are paying anywhere from $4.50-$7 a bottle for this style of beer, even your modest expenditure proves frugal economically.

Hey RPIScotty

Great points you raise! It makes more sense to find out about two recipes
I`ll probably do a 3gal batch for the `abt`-clone and then try a dubble.

Do you think dry hopping the dubble would be possible?
Or maybe turn it into something similar to LaChouffe (with some spices/coriander)?
At the moment I`m really interested in learning about the techniques, so even if the combinations might be a bit peculiar I could be able to learn more.

The first beer I brewed was the brewferm ambiorix kit and it turned out not so good (just about drinkable ), but then I read somewhere that this kind of beer might change taste quite a bit over time. I guess you just killed my hope!!!

Tulbi said:

Hey RPIScotty



Great points you raise! It makes more sense to find out about two recipes

I`ll probably do a 3gal batch for the `abt`-clone and then try a dubble.



Do you think dry hopping the dubble would be possible?

Or maybe turn it into something similar to LaChouffe (with some spices/coriander)?

At the moment I`m really interested in learning about the techniques, so even if the combinations might be a bit peculiar I could be able to learn more.



The first beer I brewed was the brewferm ambiorix kit and it turned out not so good (just about drinkable ), but then I read somewhere that this kind of beer might change taste quite a bit over time. I guess you just killed my hope!!!

Click to expand...

Stick with the guidelines for Belgians on your first couple. Get a feel for the Trappist "style" (I count St. Bernardus as a kissing cousin to the Trappists) and the Abbey style before you do anything crazy with hops.

I'm a traditionalist with these Monastery style beers but am working on some original recipes using mixed base malts and American hops in small amounts for experimentation.

Dry hopping is something pretty foreign even for the Abbey style beers. Spices: yes, try it out. Crazy things with hops right off the bat: I'd steer clear until you have a feel for the base styles then experiment.

Thanks

Made me look into LaChouffe clones and found this one:
https://www.brewtoad.com/recipes/la-chouffe-clone

Would it work if I did everything the same as for the abt, exept for:
- a bit more from the D-90 and a bit less from the D-180 with this one compared to the abt.
- the spices (I`d ommit the chocolate and the whirlfloc thingy. Could I use normal nutritional yeast?)

I mean, it will probably be far far away from a Chouffe (especially the colour) but worth a try?

Tulbi said:

Thanks



Made me look into LaChouffe clones and found this one:

https://www.brewtoad.com/recipes/la-chouffe-clone



Would it work if I did everything the same as for the abt, exept for:

- a bit more from the D-90 and a bit less from the D-180 with this one compared to the abt.

- the spices (I`d ommit the chocolate and the whirlfloc thingy. Could I use normal nutritional yeast?)



I mean, it will probably be far far away from a Chouffe (especially the colour) but worth a try?

Click to expand...

Do some research and brew what you'd like. Sounds like your developing an appreciation for Belgian beers and maybe you should drink some more before you brew them.

Other than that everything everyone has said here holds true.

Whirlfloc is not a spice but a kettle fining agent, related to Irish moss. I'm certain by "nutritional yeast" you mean yeast nutrient. Conflicted opinions on the need for yeast nutrient but it's cheap and can't hurt in the values typically specified.

I`m about to order all the ingredients.

Could it make sense to use different hops for the spiced dark belgian ale? (The recipe for the La Chouffe basically had the same hops.)
Is the amount of hops I mentioned ok?

Would using irish moss make sense for both beers, or none at all? (As far as I understood it is just for getting a clearer beer, which may not be that important with dark ales.)

Would putting slightly more and darker candi syrup negatively affect the first recipe?

Any other things I could mix into the spiced-less-dark belgian ale?
I thought of fresh orange cest.


EDIT: I would also like the second recipe to be with a lower ABV 6-7 instead of about 8.
Is there something Special I have to consider for that or is it better to just have them at the same abv?


Thanks for the advice

Hello everyone

The ingredients arrived and I`m going to start brewing very soon.

Did I understand everything correctly?

- Shred the pilsner and the caramünch grain
- Pour it into a 160F water, let it in 150F for about an hour.
- Extract the wort, leave the grain behind.
- Fill up the kettle of wort with more water, bring to a boil
- stir in the DME
- Put in the hops at the forementioned time.

At what time should I start the starter for the yeast? I will put the package of yeast together with 100g DME and 1000ml water.
Temperature should be around 24C/75F for the yeast, right?

Thanks for your help

I wanted to add some flaked wheat to the not-abt recipe (the one with spices) because that is how the `tripel karmeliet` has aswell (spices and hops are similar to the ones from LaChouffe).
When would I add that and at what temperatures?

Hey cvhjck

I just brewed a sint bernardus abt 12 clone and a some Kind of a mix between an abt 12, a LaChouffe and a Tripel Karmeliet.

Now I only have to wait for the temps of the two Batches to cool down and then add my starter.

I only started my starter 4h ago.
Boiled a Liter with 100g of DME and then cooled it down to 74F and added the yeast (which I had in a baine marie before for 30min at about 70F).
Do you know how long I should wait until I can add the starter to the Batches?

The starter is bubbling slightly at the Moment, and the plastic foil is clearly bulging.
Beergolf told me to let the yeast double (I guess that means doubling the amount of yeast cells).
The yeast cell number was 100 billions.
I have no real clue how to tell the cell-count or how to see when it doubled

A starter typically needs 12 - 24 hours to increase your yeast count (there are calculators like Yeastcalc that will help figure your yeast count). What you can do is just get your brew into your fermenter and get your airlock on. Let your starter work for a while longer until you see a krausen develop. Then give a few more hours for the krausen to peak and pitch it into your brew. This is pitching at peak krausen. As long as your fermenter and airlock are fully sanitized (as I'm sure they are), don't worry about letting the wort sit. There are folks that have waited a day or two before pitching with no ill effects.

Tulbi said:

Hey cvhjck

I just brewed a sint bernardus abt 12 clone and a some Kind of a mix between an abt 12, a LaChouffe and a Tripel Karmeliet.

Now I only have to wait for the temps of the two Batches to cool down and then add my starter.

I only started my starter 4h ago.
Boiled a Liter with 100g of DME and then cooled it down to 74F and added the yeast (which I had in a baine marie before for 30min at about 70F).
Do you know how long I should wait until I can add the starter to the Batches?

The starter is bubbling slightly at the Moment, and the plastic foil is clearly bulging.
Beergolf told me to let the yeast double (I guess that means doubling the amount of yeast cells).
The yeast cell number was 100 billions.
I have no real clue how to tell the cell-count or how to see when it doubled

Click to expand...

If you dump the whole starter in (which if fine for a small starter) 18-24 hours is optimal. If you shake the starter every hour or so (I am assuming you don't have a stir plate) you will increase the cell count more.

Tulbi said:

Hey cvhjck

I just brewed a sint bernardus abt 12 clone and a some Kind of a mix between an abt 12, a LaChouffe and a Tripel Karmeliet.

Now I only have to wait for the temps of the two Batches to cool down and then add my starter.

I only started my starter 4h ago.
Boiled a Liter with 100g of DME and then cooled it down to 74F and added the yeast (which I had in a baine marie before for 30min at about 70F).
Do you know how long I should wait until I can add the starter to the Batches?

The starter is bubbling slightly at the Moment, and the plastic foil is clearly bulging.
Beergolf told me to let the yeast double (I guess that means doubling the amount of yeast cells).
The yeast cell number was 100 billions.
I have no real clue how to tell the cell-count or how to see when it doubled

Click to expand...

cvhjck won't be answering you, he's just a regurgitator (and reported!).

Yeast starters should be started at least 2-4 days before brew day. In some cases longer. Do a search for yeast starters or read this post.

A (homemade) stir plate is best, but you can get by with swirling every hour or so. This allows them to grow, and depending on their viability it will take 1 or 2 days, sometimes longer. When the starter is completed, the jar with starter should be put in the fridge for a few days. The time spend in the fridge is called cold crashing and the yeast will settle in a thick, light tan layer on the bottom of your starter jar, leaving clear starter beer on the top.

On brew day, about an hour before you're ready to pitch your yeast, you take the jar from the fridge, pour off most of the clear starter beer leaving the yeast cake and some of the starter beer behind. Put the foil cap back on, swirl it up and let come to room temperature while you're finishing your brew.

When the wort is chilled and in the fermentor, swirl that jar of yeast up again and pour into the fermentor. Now it's beer! Aerate the beer as much as you can, for example, with a well-sanitized whisk or by shaking, all while keeping good sanitation practices. Remember that sweet wort is highly susceptible to infection from spoiling bacteria and other micro-organisms until the yeast gets a good foothold, which takes a day or so.

Now in your case here, I'm not really sure what to recommend. 4 hours is not enough for the starter to be completed. I'd say give it a few more hours of swirling and then pitch the whole starter into your beer. Aerate well.

You brewed 2 batches, what are their volumes in the fermentors?
Do you know their gravity perhaps?
Or can you list what ingredients you used for each and how much of them?

Hey

Thanks for all the advice, very nice

The Batches got a bit bigger than I expected.

One Batch is about 13.5 Liters and at around 1063 (I sadly spilled a bit of the wort.)
One Batch is about 15 Liters and at around 1090 (Will have to dillute even further. The OG should be about 1072.)

Thank you for the the step by step advice on the starter.
I was a bit naive and just thought it couldn`t take more than a couple of hours.

Can I also whisk the starter (with a sanitary whisk of course)?

What`s my best bet now:
- Leave starter like this until tomorrow morning (24h in total, that`s sadly the longest I can wait) and then pour it into the whisked/aerated wort?
- Already pour the starter in the aerated wort this evening? (in about 7h)

EDIT:
The reason I consider the second Option because I`m a bit concerned about infections/ the wort going bad.

Tulbi said:

Hey

Thanks for all the advice, very nice

The Batches got a bit bigger than I expected.

One Batch is about 13.5 Liters and at around 1063 (I sadly spilled a bit of the wort.)
One Batch is about 15 Liters and at around 1090 (Will have to dillute even further. The OG should be about 1072.)

Thank you for the the step by step advice on the starter.
I was a bit naive and just thought it couldn`t take more than a couple of hours.

Can I also whisk the starter (with a sanitary whisk of course)?

What`s my best bet now:
- Leave starter like this until tomorrow morning (24h in total, that`s sadly the longest I can wait) and then pour it into the whisked/aerated wort?
- Already pour the starter in the aerated wort this evening? (in about 7h)

EDIT:
The reason I consider the second Option because I`m a bit concerned about infections/ the wort going bad.

Click to expand...

Thanks for the detailed info. Yeah, they are much bigger than you originally were talking about. Do you happen to have any other yeast around? Reason is, that one smackpack of WY3522 wouldn't be enough for both, barely for one...

Definitely keep swirling that starter as often as you can, oxygen is good for starters. A warm 70-80F place is best for it. Put it in your Bain Marie perhaps?

What are you using as your starter vessel? How can you get a whisk in there, does it have a very wide mouth?

As long as you can prevent infection from anything getting inside your starter vessel it should all work out.

I have only bakers-yeast at hand sadly ^^

I have it in a wide open plastic Container. (I put in boiling water and chemipro oxi in there for a while before the wort and yeast.) I put cling film over it, a rubber band and a cutting board on top.

I could transfer it to one of those glass wine jugs with a narrow-ish opening (of course I`d sterilize it first). Could that be better or would it increase the risk of infection?

Then I`ll just aerate it quite often and pour it into the batches about 24h after I started the starter.

Tulbi said:

I have only bakers-yeast at hand sadly ^^

I have it in a wide open plastic Container. (I put in boiling water and chemipro oxi in there for a while before the wort and yeast.) I put cling film over it, a rubber band and a cutting board on top.

I could transfer it to one of those glass wine jugs with a narrow-ish opening (of course I`d sterilize it first). Could that be better or would it increase the risk of infection?

Then I`ll just aerate it quite often and pour it into the batches about 24h after I started the starter.

Click to expand...

Leave the baker's yeast for bread and sour dough, it is totally unsuitable for beer!

What do you use for a sanitizer? Boiling water?

I doubt Chempro Oxi is a sanitizer, it is likely more like "Oxiclean" an oxygenated washing soda, good for cleaning but doesn't kill micro-organisms very well. And it needs to be rinsed very well. For sanitizers we use Starsan or Iodophor, mostly, although bleach can be used too (not as convenient).

I guess you're not in the US. If I may ask, where in the world are you? Just curious.

Cleaning and sanitizing are related but 2 different things. We rarely sterilize in brewing, that's another step up and not often needed. To sterilize you'd need an autoclave (or oven if it can sustain high temps).

Anyway...
Each time you remove that plastic wrap the wide opening of that starter bowl is exposed to air and whatever bugs it carries ready to drop in.

I want to urge you to really read more around here on HBT, and see how many of us do things, before committing to a process. When you read about people making yeast starters you see flasks ($$) or (half) gallon wine jugs/growlers, even mason jars, never plastic bowls with a plastic wrap cover and a cutting board over it. I'm serious, you need to research and learn (quickly).

That plastic bowl is roundout scary
To grow yeast it needs oxygen (air). Yeah, a whisk is great, it can also introduce bugs whenever you whip with it, large open surface, drips from handle, etc.

I don't know how clean and sanitized those wine jugs are, that you've got there. Can they be cleaned and sanitized enough to prevent infecting your yeast starter and thus your beer, later?