Beginner Water Chemistry Question

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nubrun

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Hi all,
I have brewed about 8 batches so far, about half extract and half all-grain. My extract batches came out pretty good with no major off-flavors or issues, although there is always room for improvement. Recently however, my all-grain batches have had a certain bitter/metallic "twang" to them, mostly as an after taste. I have been using a carbon filter to filter my water (no campden), although I just pulled up a recent water report from my water company and noticed that the water is treated with Chloramine instead of Chlorine. Could this be causing that twang?

I have also attached a copy of my most recent water report. I know that mash pH could also be causing some weird off-flavors, especially in lighter beers, but I am still trying to make heads or tails of the water report and Bru'n Water.

Any help/advice would be appreciated.

Water Report.JPG
 
I always have trouble reading these things and if you're in riverside, CA then it's likely gonna be hard water. AND these water reports are known to be unreliable. I would learn how to build a water profile from RO water. There's a great water chemistry primer page in the brewing science section.

Chlorines and chloramines will give you chlorophenols which in my experience taste/smell like plastic/medicinal. But if you're running through a carbon filter they should be gone anyway.
 
The bitter metallic twang could possibly be caused by using water that's too hard for the style you're brewing
 
I use RO water in all of my beers mainly to avoid dealing with mind numbing water reports. Did you try using Campden tablets? They're good at removing chloramine from water, use 1/4 of a tablet per 5 gallons of brewing water.
 
Most carbon filters do not filter out chloramine, you need campden for that. Like ElJefeBrews said above, chloramine should give you a medicinal/plastic taste.

Your chloride is at 84ppm and your sulfate is 66ppm, neither is bad. Looks like you've got some pretty hard water (alkaline) which is most likely keeping your mash pH high (unless you're brewing a lot of stouts). Are you adding some sort of acid to counteract that? My guess would be you are either tasting the chlorophenols or your mash pH is too high and you're getting a weird off flavor that way. Since your extract batches are coming out okay my guess is on the mash pH. With extract the mash has already been done for you and wouldn't have pH issues.

Try a batch with RO water built up with salts (calcium chloride and gypsum are all you need) and add some acid malt to get your pH down. See if that helps. Check out the water primer in the brew science forum for help building water.
 
ElJefeBrews said:
The bitter metallic twang could possibly be caused by using water that's too hard for the style you're brewing
Click to expand...

That was my suspicion, between the Chloramines and Alkalinity I am probably getting different off-flavors.

ScrewyBrewer said:
I use RO water in all of my beers mainly to avoid dealing with mind numbing water reports. Did you try using Campden tablets? They're good at removing chloramine from water, use 1/4 of a tablet per 5 gallons of brewing water.
Click to expand...

I have not tried Campden tablets yet, I thought the water was treated with Chlorine. I plan on using them the next time I brew, or just biting the bullet and going RO. I have been trying to avoid either buying another beer related thing (RO filter) or having to buy water, but I think I am just going to bite the bullet. Any recommendations on a good/affordable RO system?

TheHopfather said:
Most carbon filters do not filter out chloramine, you need campden for that. Like ElJefeBrews said above, chloramine should give you a medicinal/plastic taste.

Your chloride is at 84ppm and your sulfate is 66ppm, neither is bad. Looks like you've got some pretty hard water (alkaline) which is most likely keeping your mash pH high (unless you're brewing a lot of stouts). Are you adding some sort of acid to counteract that? My guess would be you are either tasting the chlorophenols or your mash pH is too high and you're getting a weird off flavor that way. Since your extract batches are coming out okay my guess is on the mash pH. With extract the mash has already been done for you and wouldn't have pH issues.

Try a batch with RO water built up with salts (calcium chloride and gypsum are all you need) and add some acid malt to get your pH down. See if that helps. Check out the water primer in the brew science forum for help building water.
Click to expand...

I have not tried using any acids, although I have read the stickied water primer and may give it a go. I know the water is extremely hard, and I had a suspicion that my mash pH was off on the lighter beers. I should have noted that the off-flavor is more prevalent the lighter the beer is.

Thank you all for your help.
 
Check your local grocery store. The one near me has RO water for 25 cents a gallon. I just bring my own containers. I feel it's easier than investing in your own RO equipment
 
ElJefeBrews said:
Check your local grocery store. The one near me has RO water for 25 cents a gallon. I just bring my own containers. I feel it's easier than investing in your own RO equipment
Click to expand...

Thanks for the idea. I may try that for a few batches and see if the flavor goes away. I appreciate the help.
 
nubrun said:
Thanks for the idea. I may try that for a few batches and see if the flavor goes away. I appreciate the help.
Click to expand...

I should clarify and say that it has an RO water machine for 25 cents a gallon. Check around and you'll probably find a few
 
This is a topic of a recent thread. This is taken from it.

I tackle it this way.


Step 1: Build the water
  • Determine the mineral content in your brewing water via a Ward Labs report or use RO water (essentially zero mineral values or negligibly close to 0)
  • Determine the water profile you want based on the type of beer your making and personal tastes
  • Make the appropriate dilutions of tap-water with RO water to reduce ion levels as needed and add minerals you want to add ions as needed. (Do not use chalk)

Water Adjustment Tool
Brunwater2.001.jpg

Step 2: Control mash pH
  • Using the adjusted water from above, the grain-bill and planned water volume to calculate a predicted mash pH with an online tool (I use Bru'n Water, it's great)
  • Make adjustments if needed to add the required acid (there are some extreme examples where adding alkali may be needed but this is not something I have ever encountered and can't feasibly see this ever occurring)
  • Measure mash pH using a well calibrated effective pH meter (pass on the cheapo's, waste of money, as are the strips)
  • Compare the predicted with the actual mash pH and note the difference. Use this information to tailor future acid additions.
  • Mash pH can be nailed down with some accuracy as your data set grows.
  • *A test mimi-mash is another useful tool.

Mash Acidification Calculation
Mash Acidification Alt.png

All mashes require acid to get the pH into the target range. This acid comes in various forms. Some of these can be used in any given mash.
  • Acid malt
  • Roast malt
  • Crystal malt
  • Added lactic/phosphoric acid
  • Largely impractical: Carrying out a beta-glucan rest (for hours) with poorly modified malts

Measuring Mash pH 20-30 minutes into a mash
Mash pH.jpg

The thinner the mash the more acid is needed to achieve the same pH as a thicker mash of the same grains with the same water.

Tackle water profile and mash pH completely separately and it's very simple

  • Don't concern yourself with the pH of mash water
  • Sparge water may need to be acidified with lactic/phosphoric acid
  • Don't try to adjust mash pH with mineral additions. Use acid in one or more of the forms previously listed.

I'm not suggesting this is the only way to tackle water chemistry. My approach is simple, based in reasonable science, effective and repeatable. It makes perfect sense to me to do it this way. It is resulting in beers with flavors I enjoy.

Edit: Campden tablets are essential if using water like mine with Chloramine in it. 1/3 tablet for my ~7.5 gallon brewing water.
 
nubrun said:
I have not tried using any acids, although I have read the stickied water primer and may give it a go. I know the water is extremely hard, and I had a suspicion that my mash pH was off on the lighter beers. I should have noted that the off-flavor is more prevalent the lighter the beer is.

Thank you all for your help.
Click to expand...
That's a sure sign you have pH problems.

Your sodium is also kind of high, so that's probably not helping either. Diluting 50/50 with RO should help some, and adding either acid malt or acid (lactic or phosphoric.)

Brew on :mug:
 
Thank you for this. I admittedly haven't done my due diligence, but water chemistry is the most intimidating part of my very basic all grain process
 
doug293cz said:
That's a sure sign you have pH problems.



Your sodium is also kind of high, so that's probably not helping either. Diluting 50/50 with RO should help some, and adding either acid malt or acid (lactic or phosphoric.)



Brew on :mug:
Click to expand...


Thanks Doug. The more I starting reading that's what I was thinking. It's hard for me to read the water reports, but after looking into it more, I think I am going to use RO water and build up with aciduated malt and salts for the next batch. I think beirmunchers centennial blonde is up next, so it should be a good test.
 

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