Heady Topper- Can you clone it?

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I got my Comet from Yakima, also. It's my first taste of it and I have a good feeling with using it later. The grapefruit really comes out of it.
 
brewski09 said:
I accidentally aged a HT for 18 months. Inverted to resuspend the yeast the day before drinking. It was still better than most of the IIPAs I've had (and I've had a lot). It definitely wasn't the same though and it left me wanting more fresh HT. get a fresh can and check the date stamp on the can (you can ask for this when arranging the trade too).

There was still a lot of simcoe-like hop notes hanginn around as well as the infamous "onion" hoppiness. I ended up drinking half the can and making a maple beer syrup for ice cream with the other half. Crazy thing is after 20-30 minutes of reducing the beer for the sauce it still had hop aromatics and a ton of flavor.
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Is onion typical for HT? I've never had it, but that flavor absolutely KILLS IPAs for me :(
 
bobbrews said:
http://www.farmhousebrewingsupply.com/comet-4-oz-2014/

http://www.yakimavalleyhops.com/Comet16oz_p/hopscomet1-2014crop.htm



Yakima's seems to be more in line with the typical aa%. If you brew a lot of IPAs, especially dank & citrusy ones, this is a great hop for them. They are similar to Summit, Nugget, Columbus, and Apollo.
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Braufessor said:
I got mine through Norcal..... 1lb nitrogen flushed bags of pellets. they are not the easiest hop to find.



I did throw an ounce and a half in a recent pale ale (with Citra/Centennial/Cascade). I could see where it is a hop that could get away from you..... but it definitely added something to the beer, and the keg was empty 18 days after I brewed the beer - it was a great beer.
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rustedbucket said:
I got my Comet from Yakima, also. It's my first taste of it and I have a good feeling with using it later. The grapefruit really comes out of it.
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Thanks for the feedback. I'll be putting some on order soon to try it out.
 
TheHairyHop said:
Is onion typical for HT? I've never had it, but that flavor absolutely KILLS IPAs for me :(
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I had a case of the stuff and never picked up on it fresh (or even up to 3 months old). The alcohol get more pronounced at about 2 months. I'd say drink it before it's 6 weeks old would be my preference. The oniony notes only came through to me when the other fresher/juicier hop notes faded. I've picked it up in some other beers and didn't like it either so I'm not super sensitive to it, but I am a little sensitive to it. Unless you are very sensitive to that particular hop oil, you should be fine. FWIW, it was still a very good beer even with those flavors.
 
I am a little more sensitive to the onion / garlic / cat pee flavor profile, and I find that some beers that mean heavily on simcoe can end up that way, FWIW.
 
BeerGrylls said:
I am a little more sensitive to the onion / garlic / cat pee flavor profile, and I find that some beers that mean heavily on simcoe can end up that way, FWIW.
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I never get it from Simcoe and I would consider myself to be very sensitive to the onion flavor. I ALWAYS get it from Summit hops and it blows my mind that other people drink and enjoy it! Hops really are amazing. No two people taste them the same way :mug:
 
TheHairyHop said:
I never get it from Simcoe and I would consider myself to be very sensitive to the onion flavor. I ALWAYS get it from Summit hops and it blows my mind that other people drink and enjoy it! Hops really are amazing. No two people taste them the same way :mug:
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It is more likely that you're using too much Summit. Also, it could be the time the grower allows it to spend on the bine, whether too long or too short. I'm not sure where that flavor comes from, but I would like to think it is not a selective perception like how some people taste soap from cilantro. Everyone who is super into IPAs has tasted that oniony flavor in at least one beer. So it is probably not a palate issue.

Personally, I have never gotten that flavor from Simcoe. For what it's worth, that flavor may come out more it single hopped Simcoe beers, but not when it's blended in a mix like Heady. In most of the top ipa examples Simcoe is piney, tropical, dank, citrusy.
 
bobbrews said:
It is more likely that you're using too much Summit. Also, it could be the time the grower allows it to spend on the bine, whether too long or too short. I'm not sure where that flavor comes from, but I would like to think it is not a selective perception like how some people taste soap from cilantro. Everyone who is super into IPAs has tasted that oniony flavor in at least one beer. So it is probably not a palate issue.

Personally, I have never gotten that flavor from Simcoe. For what it's worth, that flavor may come out more it single hopped Simcoe beers, but not when it's blended in a mix like Heady. In most of the top ipa examples Simcoe is piney, tropical, dank, citrusy.
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I actually don't brew with Summit because I know that I dislike it. I get it from commercial beers. Back when OB put Summit in their Gubna, I couldn't even take more than a sip. I guess they've changed the recipe recently to omit the Summit, so I'll have to give it another shot.

On another note, I am one of those people who think that cilantro tastes like soap.
 
TheHairyHop said:
I actually don't brew with Summit because I know that I dislike it. I get it from commercial beers. Back when OB put Summit in their Gubna, I couldn't even take more than a sip. I guess they've changed the recipe recently to omit the Summit, so I'll have to give it another shot.

On another note, I am one of those people who think that cilantro tastes like soap.
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Summit is not the culprit. That is the point I was trying to make. If used wisely, summit is delicious and very reminiscent of tangerine.
 
To each his own. If you Google "hop that tastes like onion", Summit seems to be the bad guy in town. I'm sure that, when used with discretion, it's a nice flavor to most people, but I think my sensitivity to that particular compound is so high that I can't stand any use of it. Upslope makes an IIPA that I get a boatload of that flavor as well, but I'm not too sure what they hop it with.

I've heard some people get it with Apollo as well, but I made an Apollo smash and didn't get any of the flavor. Perhaps that's also a concentration/application scenario.
 
robopp said:
I assume you used the recipe on page 1? If so, did you use TF CaraMalt? I ask because Simpons CaraMalt is around 40L and could be a reason why your clone is so dark. TF CaraMalt is around 10L.
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I got the kit from farmhouse grains all came crushed and measured so who knows what they had in there but pretty sure they are going off of the recipe on the first page, next brew here soon will be using bobs recipe altho the aroma was on point flavor was missing something so revamp with the comet additions can't wait and have a feeling even if it's not heady not going to care because this is one of the best dipas I brewed it's just missing some dankness right now lol
 
Just out of curiosity what's everyone carbing it at? I was thinking around 2.3-2.4 vol for 5 gal keg four days left of dry hopping till I see how this one goes used the most recent recipe from bob but substituted summit for Apollo in a pinch
 
Braufessor said:
I got mine through Norcal..... 1lb nitrogen flushed bags of pellets. they are not the easiest hop to find.

I did throw an ounce and a half in a recent pale ale (with Citra/Centennial/Cascade). I could see where it is a hop that could get away from you..... but it definitely added something to the beer, and the keg was empty 18 days after I brewed the beer - it was a great beer.
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18 days after BREWING!? Or kegging??
Back when thread started, thought HT was 28 days grain to glass... What schedule are you all using? Dry hopping while carbing?
For most pales and IPAs, I do at least 2 weeks primary, avg 5 days DH, then 2 weeks carb; and then it often tastes best days after that...
 
doomXsaloon said:
18 days after BREWING!? Or kegging??
Back when thread started, thought HT was 28 days grain to glass... What schedule are you all using? Dry hopping while carbing?
For most pales and IPAs, I do at least 2 weeks primary, avg 5 days DH, then 2 weeks carb; and then it often tastes best days after that...
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That was not a direct Heady clone attempt. It was just a 5.5% pale ale I brewed, using a 7 ounce hop stand at the end of the boil. I used some comet in it (As it was a new suggested hop). No dry hop at all. Basically a really big, long (1-1.5 hour) hop stand. No dry hop. 10-12 day primary. Keg, carb and drink. That particular batch was so good that it was gone in less than a week from kegging - 18 days from brew day.
 
I've been finding that beers I do with hopstands hit their peak at 4-6 weeks. That's pretty interesting to hear yours was so good at 12-18 days. The latest one I did was also 5.5%abv, but with a 5oz 30 min steep and a 3oz dry hop. It was NOT that good at 12-18 days, but at day 26 turned freaking amazing.
 
geoffey said:
I've been finding that beers I do with hopstands hit their peak at 4-6 weeks. That's pretty interesting to hear yours was so good at 12-18 days. The latest one I did was also 5.5%abv, but with a 5oz 30 min steep and a 3oz dry hop. It was NOT that good at 12-18 days, but at day 26 turned freaking amazing.
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That one might have been better with a couple more weeks if I (and my wife, and my friends) could have kept away from it for a bit longer..... it was the only hoppy beer I had at the time though - it never stood a chance:tank:

I have 2 new versions on tap now that are also great drinkers - they have a chance of seeing 4-5 weeks old since I have 5 gallons of each:) I may never dry hop a beer again.
 
The dry hop is supremely important in an IPA. Every single award winning commercial IPA out there (that we have a clone for or recipe specifics instead of educated guesses) defines the dry hop as the heaviest hop addition with as much as 40-50% total recipe hops designated for the dry hop slot (on average).

Don't skip the dryhop.
...Don't skip the hopstand either. Do both, but realize that the dry hop is more important for this style.
 
bobbrews said:
The dry hop is supremely important in an IPA. Every single award winning commercial IPA out there (that we have a clone for or recipe specifics instead of educated guesses) defines the dry hop as the heaviest hop addition with as much as 40-50% total recipe hops designated for the dry hop slot (on average).

Don't skip the dryhop.
...Don't skip the hopstand either. Do both, but realize that the dry hop is more important for this style.
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Yeah - I know. I have just been so happy with recent hoppy beers where I have went with big hopstands and no dry hop that I am having a hard time convincing myself to go back to dry hopping. School is done in a couple weeks, and then I will have more time - I am planning on doing some side-by-sides at that point with the changes I have made to my APA/IPA brewing. One of the first things I plan to do is brew the same beer and then compare big hopstand only to smaller hopstand and bigger dry hop (just as you are outlining).
I do agree that there are no great IPA's that are not dry hopped....
 
EyePeeA said:
The recipe on page 1 is over 2 years old and not a clone for Heady Topper. Page 1 is fairly accurate, but recent tweaks from veteran brewers have honed in on a more precise and sensical recipe. Read the past 20 pages or so for an idea of how the page 1 recipe should be tweaked for better accuracy.
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Page 1 recipe WAS the clone for heady before kimmich had to resort to using whatever hops he can get his hands on. IMO better than recent batches he has been putting out.

FWIW, I brewed that recipe and a local nano brewed it on their 3bbl system is was such a hit.
 
Johnnyhitch1 said:
Page 1 recipe WAS the clone for heady before kimmich had to resort to using whatever hops he can get his hands on. IMO better than recent batches he has been putting out.
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It was never "the clone"... just a series of educated guesses and he said, she said commentary... Basically the reason why it was close, but no cigar.
 
pickles said:
Braufessor - any chance you'd post the recipe for this non-dry hopped beer?
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Check post 243 in this thread:
https://www.homebrewtalk.com/showthread.php?t=443295&page=25

**Not a heady clone by any means.

I am still playing around a bit with the water (lower sulfate some and increasing chloride some).

This particular version was all citra.... But, I have brewed the exact same beer, with the same basic hop schedule, but switching the varieties (like 1/3 citra/Centennial/Cascade mix at all the additions for example).

Been using 5-7 ounces in the hop stand addition.
 
Braufessor said:
Check post 243 in this thread:
https://www.homebrewtalk.com/showthread.php?t=443295&page=25

**Not a heady clone by any means.

I am still playing around a bit with the water (lower sulfate some and increasing chloride some).

This particular version was all citra.... But, I have brewed the exact same beer, with the same basic hop schedule, but switching the varieties (like 1/3 citra/Centennial/Cascade mix at all the additions for example).

Been using 5-7 ounces in the hop stand addition.
Click to expand...

I love flameout/hop steeps, but they just don't add the same flavor profile as a dry hop. Cold applications will taste different than hot applications of the same hop. To me, hot applications tend to have a "juicier" characteristic in most bold American hops
 
You can't go wrong with the HWC method for an IIPA. You get the most the hops have to offer at various temperature ranges...

Hot (Single Kettle Addition) - Big bittering charge added to a full rolling boil. Hop Extract (HopShot) is the best choice.
Warm (Dual Hopstand Addition) - Flameout charge for isomerization + another addition at 160F to retain the delicate compounds. 25-40% recipe hops by weight.
Cold (Dual Dryhop Addition) - Two stage, 4-5 day dryhop for each stage. 40-50% recipe hops by weight.
 
bobbrews said:
You can't go wrong with the HWC method for an IIPA. You get the most the hops have to offer at various temperature ranges...

Hot (Single Kettle Addition) - Big bittering charge added to a full rolling boil. Hop Extract (HopShot) is the best choice.
Warm (Dual Hopstand Addition) - Flameout charge for isomerization + another addition at 160F to retain the delicate compounds. 25-40% recipe hops by weight.
Cold (Dual Dryhop Addition) - Two stage, 4-5 day dryhop for each stage. 40-50% recipe hops by weight.
Click to expand...

i wish someone informed me of this 2 years ago when i started brewing, im only now catching onto this by my own experimentation with fantastic results, its the ultimate blue print for hoppy beers
 
So say I were to do the HWC method bobbrews. If I were to use 12 oz of hops and a hop shot. So hopshot at 60 min, 3 oz at FO, 3 oz at 160. Then 3 oz first dry hop, pull hop bag at 5 days then 3 more oz for another 5 days. Sound about right?
 
gotbags-10 said:
So say I were to do the HWC method bobbrews. If I were to use 12 oz of hops and a hop shot. So hopshot at 60 min, 3 oz at FO, 3 oz at 160. Then 3 oz first dry hop, pull hop bag at 5 days then 3 more oz for another 5 days. Sound about right?
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That will work. Depending on the amount of HopShot you use, you might not even need a FO addition. You can simply add 5-6 oz. hops directly at 160-180 F and then follow that up with a 6-7 oz. two-stage dryhop.


For the hopstand, I like to stay within the 25-40% range of total recipe hops.

For the dryhop, it should be slightly larger in the 40-50% range.

^These ranges fall in line with the hopping schedule that many successful commercial breweries of IPAs/IIPAs follow.


Big hefty IIPAs that can handle all of those hops will lean toward the end of those target ranges. Smaller standard IPAs will be closer to the beginning of those ranges. Of course, the total amount of recipe hops is also a factor. I rarely brew IIPAs with less than 10-12 oz. total hops per 5 gallon batch. Standard IPAs can be good with only 7-8 oz. hops for the same volume.
 
Here is mine, fresh out the fermentor. Tastes like dank grapefruit, without the dry hop.

Dry hop will be:

3 oz Simcoe
1.5 oz Centennial
1.5 oz Chinook
1.0 oz Columbus
1.0 oz Comet

Recipe was:

8 oz - Rice Hulls
23 lb - Optic Malt
3 lb - Flaked Wheat
1 lb - CaraRed
1 lb - Corn Sugar

8 g - Gypsum

20 ml - Apollo HopShot @ 60m (boil)
3 oz - Simcoe @ 40m (steep)
1.5 oz - Citra @ 40m (steep)
1.5 oz - Mosaic @ 40m (steep)
1.0 oz - Chinook @ 40m (steep)
1.0 oz - Summit @ 40m (steep)

Note: All steep hops added at flameout, then pot covered and naturally cooled for 40m before running through chiller.

3L starter - Vermont IPA (GigaYeast)

OG @ 1.072
FG @ 1.010

Oh, and if anyone is interested, here was my water profile:

75 ppm - Calcium
10 ppm - Magnesium
24 ppm - Sodium
113 ppm - Sulfate
44 ppm - Chloride
0 ppm - Bicarbonate

My pH numbers:

Mash pH - 5.4
Sparge pH - 5.5

And my final IBU/Color/ABV:

Calculated IBU - 140
SRM - 7
Measured ABV - 8.2%

View attachment 1431653905418.jpg
 
Would CaraRed be an acceptable substitute for the TF CaraMalt in this beer? I'm ordering from Yakima Valley hops, which doesn't have CaraMalt, nor do any of the homebrew stores in my area. I could also grab some 10L.
 

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