Closed-system pressurized fermentation technique!

I think 2.5 in 5 gal corny will be fine.

Thanks, I went back and followed all the links now that I am committed ;-)

EDITII: I found this page with a definition of "spunding" http://www.trailmonkey.com/lounging/yeasty.htm#Spunding

This is very cool. Ditching the wort chiller is cool, I dont have to worry about oxygen on week 6 and UV is a non-issue.

I don't have any Sanke kegs, not likely to add one soon. It seems like with Cornies I might as well not modify the thing at all.

If I use a big short line and a picnic tap on the black port am I going to have any trouble running the sediment up the spear tube? Once I have clear beer in the short fat tube I can change to a black/black transfer tube and rack to another unmodified corny...

EDIT: If this works out good I will shorten the spear on one keg so I have a dedicated primary.

wow 15.5 gallons in what 2 weeks pressure fermented right. You drink a lot man.

Poindexter said:

Thanks, I went back and followed all the links now that I am committed ;-)

This is very cool. Ditching the wort chiller is cool, I dont have to worry about oxygen on week 6 and UV is a non-issue.

I don't have any Sanke kegs, not likely to add one soon. It seems like with Cornies I might as well not modify the thing at all.

If I use a big short line and a picnic tap on the black port am I going to have any trouble running the sediment up the spear tube? Once I have clear beer in the short fat tube I can change to a black/black transfer tube and rack to another unmodified corny...

EDIT: If this works out good I will shorten the spear on one keg so I have a dedicated primary.

Click to expand...

Whoa, you are ditching your wort chiller? I didn't read this. You need to chill as fast as possible to eliminate DMS from your brews before you pitch. You are on my same page as far as everything else you said. Chill, pitch, then seal and ferment.

z987k said:

wow 15.5 gallons in what 2 weeks pressure fermented right. You drink a lot man.

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Not just me, and that is the stigma...... They don't have a problem drinking it, just coming up with what they drank after they drank it. Whoa, you want me to pitch in $10 for the couple of beers I drank(at least 12).... LOL, you see my point. They have now started bitching about me pad locking the kegerator when I go to bed. I think someone said I was getting "butt hurt" over the whole beer deal. LOL, I told the last person that ask me for a beer to give me 10$ now and I would reserve a 12 pk for them the next time I brewed, he laughed and said he would just go to the liquor store. I said great, when it is ready and you want to drink some I will have you go to the liquor store and grab something similar so we can see. Why, does no one want to pay for home brewed beer? They would rather gripe about buying beer from the liquor store at a higher price. I hate people, lol. And I do drink a lot of beer all on my own, but mooching has ended now to preserve my kegs and my sanity.

Home for me is right next door to Durham, NC where the reservoir still only has about a 92 day supply of drinking water. And my wort chiller does not re-circulate.

So I strained my hot wort to my bottling bucket, stirred for whirlpool and then drained through the spigot into a sanitized corny that was full of CO2. Capped the keg, CO2 to 10psi, I am just waiting for it to cool down before I pitch. Not worried about infections, not one bit.

Yah, I left the cold break in the wort. But I saved a crap load of fresh water.



And I am with you on the "friends" who count to twelve 1-2. Quality Control samples is one thing, but ya got to do what ya got to do.

You can't get rid of DMS that way, you need to try to get your wort below 140*F as fast as possible. It is not infection that I would worry about. But, if you brew and it taste good then you have no problem... So. I am worried about DMS levels though, especially with pilsner malts.

So if I have this straight "spunding" is one of a myriad potential functions of an adjustable pressure relief valve?

In this case the adjustable pressure relief is mounted on a Sanke tap, T'd with a pressure gauge, yes?

And Sanke's can be had in 7.5 gal sizes...

Yes, the spunding valve is connected to a "T" with a pressure gauge and that "T" is then connected to a Sanke keg tap on the gas-in port. The little one-way gas check valve is removed before the spunding valve is connected to the tap. The other check valve on the tap in the beer-out port stay in place to prevent any beer pushed out of the keg during testing/tasting from going back into the keg. I connect a beer serving line and a picnic tap to the beer-out port on the Sanke tap.

As far as myriad of potential functions, 1). I use it to ferment under controlled pressure, 2). I use it to carbonate to an exact volume of CO2 required, 3). I use it to bleed pressure from my target keg when counter pressure transferring carbonated beer so it doesn't get foamy. If I could find a better and higher setting adjustable pressure relief valve and a higher reading pressure gauge, I could leave everything tapped the whole ferment and carbonation cycle. If I had to do mine all over again (which I will real soon), I would use a better adjustable back pressure relief valve like this one.

This one is McMasterCarr #99045K11 for $30.13, but can control .5-60 psi. I would also buy a better pressure gauge as this one was cheap and is already starting to corrode from the humidity in the lagerator. I am thinking something like this would work better.

It is a little pricey but won't corrode. McmasterCarr #4066K51 for $41.24 and the one I would need goes up to 60 psi which is way more than I will ever use since keg tap reliefs are set to blow at 50 psi. You could get away with just the pressure gauge and relieve any over pressure everyday, but I can tell you pressure builds up very quickly during fermentation and relieving it from much higher than your wanted 15 psi can cause a lot of mess. This seems expensive now, but I like not having to use as much CO2 from a bottle and I really love gadgets .

They do make 7.5 gallon Sankes (quarter). I haven't had any luck finding anything but 5.19 gallon 1/6 barrel kegs (sixtel) or your standard 15.5 gallon 1/2 barrel (half). A 7.5 would be perfect for a 5 gallon batch I would think.

Ooh, thanks for McMaster-Carr numbers.

My number one priority now is to come up with "something else" before I pull a bad batch out of my plastic ale pale. I don't want another one, I want something better.

Number two is to ditch the glass. I like being able to lift the cover and "see" my beer, but I don't like the thermal intolerance, and the handles suck.

Grey post blow off tube is easy. Grey port spunding valve = VISA + McMaster Carr, thank you. Black to black transfer hose is easy. Grey post to bubbing airlock I can manage. Presumably I should use 10 feet of 3/16" for black to black transfer hose?

I like being able to prep the primary weeks in advance of the brew day, this system has a lot to offer.

I am thinking session/keg beer can carbonate as it ferments. Recipes that need to age or be exchanged can use the regular blowoff/airlock on their way to a bottling bucket.

Plus I can use my old ale pale as an ice bucket to control my ferment temps while I primary in steel.

After the first recipe I made up myself sucked so bad, I bought several of the 'prize winning beer recipe' books, and I can't tell you how many times I have read the words "primary in steel".

The spunding valve is totally bonus to me. After everything else using a Corny as a primary has to offer, carb as I go session beer for a lousy $70 is gravy.

One of my cornies has a straight tube under the black post and a divot in the floor to match, so I can easily make spear tubes of different lengths for that one. This is just totally rocking.

And I can lager in these someday.

My plan is to max out the "corny as a primary" system while I am limited to the kitchen stove and 2.5gal AG batches. When I get a back yard and a turkey fryer I'll be looking for a 7.5g Sanke for primary to go with 5g AG batches.

PM/steep extract batches I can use to come up with max pri volume for a 5g corny. I'll be bumpng this thread again in a few weeks.

Have you checked into "blending" or High Gravity Brewing? If your mash tun can handle a bigger load of grain then you can brew a higher OG beer with proportionately higher hops and other additions, and then can add it to pre-boiled water in your fermenter to achieve the OG you want. Or, do what some of the big guys do by blending pre-container so you get the most from your fermenter, of course they use perfectly controlled water for this and I don't want to go there until I am very sure about the process. I am thinking about blending using my new system to get me to a whole 15.5 gallon final batch. The pressure fermentation technique I use allow me more in the fermenter because of subdued krausen height, and I know how much is always left in my fermenter afterwords. So, if nothing leaves the fermenter until it is finished and you take good gravity readings, I should know how much beer is going into my serving/"secondary" ahead of time. Knowing this, I could boil my water after pitching my yeast or even wait a day and then boil and add my cool measured (because hot water expands and will give you a wrong reading) pre-boiled water to the soon-to-be serving keg. Once in there, I will purge it with the CO2 from fermentation (spunding valve on serving keg not fermenter) and will remove even more of the remaining O2 in the water. Then at transfer time, I will bleed the spunding valve on the serving keg as I'm adding back gas to the fermenter, just like serving a beer. The higher gravity beer will mix with the same carbonation level water and then mature just like normal. Where it at, where it at, where it at??? I love the flexibility this gives me in the very near future even more so than it does right now, and I love it now .

I am on the way. I have a buddy that works for some kinda pipe fitting place with a McM-C account. You might have a PM soon.

I did a very high gravity half bock, brewed one gallon of dopplebock, diluted with 3 gallons of water in the bottling bucket so I have four gallons of "half bock" to serve my BMC swilling friends. I can see fermenting say 4 gallons of "English Bitter" that won't hit FG until it gets racked onto one gallon of H2O in the serving keg. Schweet!

I picked up two more "straight spear" cornies last night, so I have three where the spear under the black post is perfectly straight and I should be able to juggle lengths around and leave most of the crud behind when I xfer to serving keg.

I did convert two grey posts to airlocks last night also, both of my SMaSH brews are in steel under airlocks. When the time comes I will use CO2 to push them into the bottling bucket, both of those will be bottled conditioned for eventual swap shipment.

I also have all the parts for a black to black corny transfer hose, and I figured out how to purge CO2 into empty corny's through the black post.

And I have the stuff for a steep/extract English Pale, so as soon as I get my McM-C stuff in I'll brew that and measure how much gets pushed out the blowoff. I am sure the proper transfer spear length will vary with the OG and yeastchoice for starters... but my next batch is going to carb itself in the keg under a spunding valve.

My plastic fermenter is retired. I will be using it as an ice bucket to control temp on my next batch that will primary in steel.

My glass carboys have been given away free to good homes.

I feel so organized that I should probably go have a home brew right now, except it is 0930AM local.

Thanks for the inspiration wortmonger. I was explaining to my LHBS guy last night about transferring keg to keg with a spunding valve on the target keg and I thought he was going to pee his pants.

Glad I could be of help. I really like the way things just seem easier. It does cost more for the gadgets, but makes my life so much easier. I am trying to post some pics of what I have planned for CO2 reclamation (the make your own CO2 thread and pics are of course more than I will probably do, but the idea for purging the keg is the main idea), you should check it out if you want to.

I have just siphoned my last beer. I do have one more empty Corny and five one gallon batches of mead in glass, but that can wait. My last beer is out of glass into Stainless and I (knock wood) am never going to have to fool with a siphon again.

All I have from McMaster Carr right now is a order confirmation number, but I am about to ululate like a blue painted Celt while my autosiphon goes thup-thup-thupping off the balcony.

Thanks again wortmonger, from here on out I get to use CO2 and a transfer tube.

If a siphon falls in the dumpster and there is no one to mourn does it still make a noise?

LOL, I have never used an auto siphon so I have no idea what one is. I am about to bottle from my primary about two gallons that got left during transfer last time. I think I am just going to use the simplistic method proposed by BeirMuncher, I believe, and use my testing spigot and a stopper and bleed the stopper to fill the bottle. This is just getting too simple.

wortmonger said:

LOL, I have never used an auto siphon so I have no idea what one is. I am about to bottle from my primary about two gallons that got left during transfer last time. I think I am just going to use the simplistic method proposed by BeirMuncher, I believe, and use my testing spigot and a stopper and bleed the stopper to fill the bottle. This is just getting too simple.

Click to expand...

Actually I just racked from from flat keg to bottling bucket onto priming sugar;-) Like ten minutes ago.

For flat beer to priming sugar I used 10 feet of 3/16" tube with just a black post at the keg end and bare naked hose barb in the bottom of the bottling bucket.

At the other end I just hooked up my CO2 tank to the grey post on the source keg.

I actually held the bare end of the transfer hose over the sink while the yeast was blowing, then to the bottling bucket.

I used the same 10-12psi CO2 I am using to serve and force carb EdWorts Haus Pale.

No bubbling issues, I might invoke a picnic tap and racking cane next time so I can stop the flow immediately when the yeast is gone and the beer is running clear.

Just M2c.

Still thinking about bottling forced carbed beer. It seems like the swap results are spotty though several folks are getting good results with bottles that stay home.

Wortmonger,
I've added this to the Wiki. It could really do with your input.

Any one with a little Wiki experience fancy adding categories and formatting?

https://www.homebrewtalk.com/wiki/index.php/Closed-system_pressurized_fermentation

Hey Orfy, let me brew this week and take some better pictures. I want it to be spot on when I make a go at the Wiki. I will do a much better write-up with a lot more pictures. I am glad you even think it is worthy so I will do you guys some justice and make it great.

Well the haggis is in the fire now. I have 4 gallons of steep/extract @1.051 English Pale Ale in a five gallon corny, with a serving keg set to receive the last gallon of water.

I pitched my yeast 73 minutes ago, the thread makes a whole lot more sense with keg over here by my right knee building pressure ;-)

I am going to reset my spunding valve from 30psi down to I think 5psi for a couple days. Once the yeast are ripping, then I'll slowly increase the pressure in the keg.

Video in equipment section.

Right on, keep us informed of your ferment at 5 psi. I am curious if 1 gallon is enough head space, and you should find out pretty quickly if it is not. I'd recommend putting something like a rag over the "gas escape" just in case krausen gets there and starts spitting out. Are you temperature controlling your ferment? I need to go check out your videos, maybe it shows there. Anyways, glad you understand it now and can't wait to hear about your "victory," hopefully.

wortmonger said:

Right on, keep us informed of your ferment at 5 psi.

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If I was using Yellow Nottingham and just an airlock, I would not be worried about overflow gunk coming out the airlock.

I hope if Safale 05 was weven more aggressive than Yellow Notti I would have heard about it already.

I do have a stick-on thermometer on the side of my primary-ing Cornelius. When the temp and pressure start to rise later this afternoon I am going to stand the keg in a kitchensink, dump a bag of ice in the sink around the keg, leave the spunding vavle set at 5psi and hope for the best.

Like I said, unless Salfale 05 is some special forces kinda yeast I would be fine with an airlock, so with a less aggressive yeast and 5psi on the headspace I think I'll be OK.

Good, I was just cautiously pesimistic, lol

I am going to put all my notes from my first fermentation under pressure here. Editing stuff back into this post keeps all the observations in one place, and keeps from bumping the trhead over and over, so every one wins. Right now I am 24 hours in, so quick recap:

In primary ferment keg #1 I have four gallons (give or take a quart) of 1.050 steep/ extract English Pale Ale. In keg number 2 is one gallon of RO water, so I have two Cornies tied up right now, but my batch size is five gallons, with a virtual OG of 1.040.

It looked like I had plenty of head space as I pitched Safale 05 into keg #1.

The two kegs are connected to each other, grey post on keg #1 with four gallons fermenting to black post on keg #2 with one gallon of water carbonating. They are connected with 10 feet of 3/16" ID line. Both kegs and the line have been pressure tested to 59psi.

The spunding valve is on the grey post of keg #2, set at 5psi to start.

After pitching the yeast I pushed CO2 from a supply tank into the system to seal the kegs. I pushed in the black post on keg #2, so all (most of) the wort should be out of the spear and at the party.

Over the first 12 hours the system pressure seeped slowly down as the temp crept up, the CO2 dissolved into the liquid and the yeast were lagging.

At aproximately pitch + 12 hours the fermenter temp was up to 70°F and the spunding vavle was showing zero psi. I put keg #1 in a kitchen sink with three pounds of ice, and about a gallon of water; purged the black post on keg #1 with CO2 to 10psi for I think the third time, and went to bed.

This morning, pitch plus 24 hours, the temp was at "64-66-68" on the stick on, the ice was melted, the spunding valve is showing 5psi. I am adding ice to the sink one pound at a time to keep the temperature stable. When my ice rate slows down I'll start upping the pressure.

At this time there is no visible vapor in the transfer line, never mind head foam:

{will insert pic in a day or two}

The other thing I notice, big time, is the scent. You know how you can lean over the air lock of an actively fermenting pale ale and get a big hit of floral hops? Not with this system. What I have in my apartment right now is a heady roasty malty grainy goodness vapor in little pockets here and there. I bet the water in the bottom of keg #2 is trapping some highly volatile hop somethings and I can hardly wait to taste those.

So for now I'll keep pitching ice in the sink, I am making a slow chili today anyway. I promise to grab a hydro sample when the ice rate slows down and I am about to start raising the pressure.

Minor observations I will edit into this post, for major changes I will bump the thread.

EDITS BEGIN:

12-30-07- 1800 After 12 hours of feeding the ferment cooler ice I pulled a gravity sample, 1.034. Tasty enough I intend to get very very good at this technique.

01-01-08: I think my picnic tap was leaking. I took it off and forced carbed to 9psi, and then set the spunding valve set 9 revolutions above audible pffft. At one point I had a word problem laid out: 4 gal liquid and one gal head space at 64dF with one gal liquid and 4 gal headspace at 74dF - connected by a short tube, system pressure is 2psi. How many gallons of CO2 are in the system ?- so I stuck the serving keg in an ice bath to equalize the temperatures.

01-04-08 I guess my leak was in my new valve. I was losing pressure somewhere. I racked to serving keg earlier than I expected to reduce the system Oring count, and ended up forcing to 25psi and crash cooling. At this point i have 5 gallons of 1.016 all in one keg, in the fridge, at 50dF. The prssure in the headspace is "sopmewhere" north of 10psi. I am hooking my CO2 supply tank up once daily. Beer is __very__ tasty, I will be working out these bugs.

For now I would like a fixed relief valve at 5psi and a fixed relief valve at 25psi. I am thinking I can capture my high krausen in a second corny, then slap on the 5psi valve for primary ferment. When I get to 70-80% of expected attentuation I'll just change out the 5psi valve for the 25psi valve, and then crash cool when I get to or quite near expected FG.

01-07-08. I am drinking this beer, and it is good.

I am so glad I am not using cornies, lol. I really just fill my primary, seal it up, and tap (not blending so I only need one keg for everyone following the thread). I don't know why you had to do anything other than hook up your kegs as mentioned and seat your seals with the 5 psi from your CO2 tank. I am looking forward to hearing the whole thing through.

Nine days, *ME to glass.


Bwa-ha-ha.

I'll take pictures next time through. Watch for brew on 01-27-08 after I move...

Thanks again wortmonger.

I am soooo ready to start brewing with your guidance Mr. wortmonger!!!

Dig said:

I am soooo ready to start brewing with your guidance Mr. wortmonger!!!

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My next brew day is schedule for 01-27-08.

If you get there first, here is the 3 corny plan.

Corny #1 is going to catch "about" 4.5 to 4.75 of cooled wort. I am thinking 2 or 3 fingers of headspace. Maybe one finger.

Off the grey of corny 1 into the black of corny 2, very short large diameter tubing.

Krausen through the short tube, 2 quarts of yeast starting hop free wort in the bottom of corny two.

a tube, grey post corny two to black post corny three. Corny three is the serving keg, with "the rest" of the five gallon batch as plain old RO water.

spunding valve on grey post corny three at 5psi.

Pitch the yeast, seal up the kegs, purge CO2 in through the black post on corny #1 to 5 psi.

3 or 4 days later pull the yeast starting corny out of the mix, crank the spunding valve up to 25psi. Let the yeast run the pressure up, they can do it.

Note the water in corny three is carbonated to the same pressure as the rest of the batch in corny one.

On day seven or eight (5?) push out of the primary fermenter into the serving keg. Once you have your FG press to 25psi at room temp from your supply tank and get that sucker in the fridge.

You should have 1 keg that needs to be cleaned, one excellent yeast starter and a keg of beer.

Another week in the fridge, this stuff is going to be "better", but Jeez Louise. I am going to do this again. I will take pics. I am sure I can find some volunteers to sample a little beer....

LOL, so good it turned out for you. I like the idea of the 2nd keg being a starter. I think with this being the case, the yeast would eat/filter some of the supposedly yucky stuff that comes off with the fermentation CO2 before you get to your carbonated water. I wonder though if it is smart to trifle with the small port on the Corny or a Sanke for that matter with the "wanted" krausen from this method. If it got blocked up it could be bad. This is the reason I first looked into this way of fermenting, to keep everything in and below a certain spot in the vessel. With the "now wanted/ already carbonated/blending water" in the future works, I feel like a scrubbing type filter system might be better suited in-between the primary and target kegs leaving the krausen and the rest of the yuck in the fermenter. But, I can't wait to see your experiments. I love how one person can say something and another look at it with even more ideas or ways to go with it. I can't wait to try my first lager this way, with decoction no-less, if my pressure cooker ever gets here . So, did you get krausen in your primary to target keg gas line? Or, did the pressure of 5 psi keep the 1 gallon head space's krausen below the gas-in port on the primary?

Dig said:

I am soooo ready to start brewing with your guidance Mr. wortmonger!!!

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Hey Justin (DIG)!!!!!,
How much closer are we to brewing in our new equipment? LOL, hummmmm? You need to get a mash mill. Oh, and Justin......this process allows for a higher fermentation temperature without the higher fermentation temperature byproducts. So, you could ferment anywhere in your house (depending ales and lagers). I can't wait until you are up and running there brother, the system I built you should be perfect for a start-up and if you ferment this way you won't have to worry about 60 bottles every time you brew a 5 gallon batch.

Ok, I haven't done a blend yet with this way of brewing, but you can imagine it without the water in the serving keg if you want to. I finally decided in calling it a catchy name even though it is not by any means "my" idea. Here are some drawings of the way I brew/will be brewing.


and page two....