Why doesn’t everyone BIAB?

[bwible]

I say "separate sparge" because there is always an integrated sparge in the basic BIAB process. When the bag is removed, the grain is being rinsed.

But its not. Its only being drained. Rinsed would imply the addition of more water that the grain was not already soaking in. The purpose of a sparge step is to rinse out additional sugar left behind in the grain after the first wort is collected. That is why traditional brewers add fresh additional hot water from a seperate hot water vessel. You don’t rinse out additional sugars using liquid that is already saturated with sugar. With BIAB you are only collecting your first wort when you pull the bag out. Unless you are adding additional fresh water in some way you are not sparging.

So your grain is not being rinsed. With BIAB, your wort is also not being polished by any recirculation filtration. Recirculation is a process that takes place in your dedicated mash vessel. Its also called vorlauf in German and it aids your beer’s clarity by removing fine particulate matter. If you ever recirculate, look at the clarity of your wort at the start and look at it again after 15 minutes or 20 minutes of recirculation. Night and day. All that stuff you don’t remove when you don’t vorlauf will settle out on the bottom of your fermenter (if you’re lucky) making it more difficult to syphon and costing you beer in the process. And most of the time you will also not end up with a clear beer. Fine if you’re making NEIPA I guess.

But this is fallacy to say there is a built in sparge. There is no such thing. Sparging means rinsing your grain with fresh water, even if you pour some over the bag. Which is still not built in.

 

[LittleRiver]

...this is fallacy to say there is a built in sparge....

Fair enough. Words have a meaning, and I was stretching the use of the word.

It wasn't an original thought from me. I got it from listening to a podcast by the Australian guys who invented BIAB. They were talking about how having all the water in the vessel in a full volume BIAB provides an inherent "sparge" when all that water is drained from the bag. Were they using the term loosely? Sure, but they got their point across.

 

[Gravelscratcher]

No sparge efficiency is comparable...if not better in some cases, and any differences are negligible either way.
It just goes back to what works for the individual brewer.
I prefer BIAB, but that's me.

 

[bleme]

But its not. Its only being drained. Rinsed would imply the addition of more water that the grain was not already soaking in. The purpose of a sparge step is to rinse out additional sugar left behind in the grain after the first wort is collected. That is why traditional brewers add fresh additional hot water from a seperate hot water vessel. You don’t rinse out additional sugars using liquid that is already saturated with sugar. With BIAB you are only collecting your first wort when you pull the bag out. Unless you are adding additional fresh water in some way you are not sparging.

So your grain is not being rinsed. With BIAB, your wort is also not being polished by any recirculation filtration. Recirculation is a process that takes place in your dedicated mash vessel. Its also called vorlauf in German and it aids your beer’s clarity by removing fine particulate matter. If you ever recirculate, look at the clarity of your wort at the start and look at it again after 15 minutes or 20 minutes of recirculation. Night and day. All that stuff you don’t remove when you don’t vorlauf will settle out on the bottom of your fermenter (if you’re lucky) making it more difficult to syphon and costing you beer in the process. And most of the time you will also not end up with a clear beer. Fine if you’re making NEIPA I guess.

But this is fallacy to say there is a built in sparge. There is no such thing. Sparging means rinsing your grain with fresh water, even if you pour some over the bag. Which is still not built in.

This implies that there is only 1 way to BIAB, which is just wrong. There are plenty of us who BIAB and/or recirculate and/or sparge.

I also call BS on not ending up with a clear beer. Total and complete BS.

 

[Gravelscratcher]

This implies that there is only 1 way to BIAB, which is just wrong. There are plenty of us who BIAB and/or recirculate and/or sparge.

I also call BS on not ending up with a clear beer. Total and complete BS.

Yes, I recently did a BIAB Kolsch, and it was nice and clear.
Wort was clear/clean...no different than my 3v days. Beer was see through @ finished product.

Edit: & I BIAB no sparge (recent convert).

 

[NewJersey]

Yes, I recently did a BIAB Kolsch, and it was nice and clear.
Wort was clear/clean...no different than my 3v days. Beer was see through @ finished product.

Edit: & I BIAB no sparge (recent convert).

I wanna get a tattoo incorporating "1V" "full volume mash" "no sparge" "eBIAB" and "3V is for suckers" lolll

 

[LittleRiver]

...All that stuff you don’t remove when you don’t vorlauf will settle out on the bottom of your fermenter (if you’re lucky) making it more difficult to syphon and costing you beer in the process. And most of the time you will also not end up with a clear beer.....

Well then me and lots of other folks get lucky all the time, because we get clear great tasting beer from our full volume single vessel BIAB process.

Here's a recent brew in which I dumped everything that was in the kettle into the fermenter. No finings of any type were used. All I did was cold crash a few days before packaging.

Brewhouse efficiency was 83%. Brew day took 3:40, from starting to fill kettle to everything cleaned and put away (no prior prep).

I appreciate you letting me know I've been doing it all wrong.

 

[Blazinlow86]

To me its clear as day if you have brewed using both methods that the wort into the kettle is cloudy using the biab method compared to a traditional mash setup. If it makes a difference in the final product could definitely be debated however. I personally think the traditional mash clears slightly faster but that's probably a compromise that's irrelevant to most. Cheers

 

[Gravelscratcher]

Irish moss or whirfloc clears the wort the same...3v or BIAB.

 

[Blazinlow86]

Irish moss or whirfloc clears the wort the same...3v or BIAB.

I've never heard of anyone adding Irish moss to there mash to get clear wort INTO there KETTLE. Cheers

 

[Gravelscratcher]

Not irrelevant...just adding to it.
What is Irrelevant, is stating that wort is cloudy because of BIAB processes. I've used Irish moss and whirfloc tablets since my 1st brew in 2012...which was an extract.
With the exception of NEIPA's, or intentional cloudy brews, I use it on every batch...whether it is 3V or BIAB.
Cloudy wort has never been an issue for me me on any brew.
BIAB is just another way to skin the same cat.

 

[Gravelscratcher]

I've never heard of anyone adding Irish moss to there mash to get clear wort INTO there KETTLE. Cheers

Hahahahahaha...that's so funny.

 

[Gravelscratcher]

Who cares if the wort is cloudy in the kettle...it only matters what goes into the fermenter (& that's debatable).

 

[Blazinlow86]

Not irrelevant...just adding to it.
What is Irrelevant, is stating that wort is cloudy because of BIAB processes. I've used Irish moss and whirfloc tablets since my 1st brew in 2012...which was an extract.
With the exception of NEIPA's, or intentional cloudy brews, I use it on every batch...whether it is 3V or BIAB.
Cloudy wort has never been an issue for me me on any brew.
BIAB is just another way to skin the same cat.

You missed the point entirely. I brew using both methods. As I stated the wort *****into**** the kettle is cloudy when using the biab method compared to the traditional way. Would you agree with that statement. Cheers

 

[Gravelscratcher]

I guess...why does it matter?
If you're not using whirfloc or IM, you're getting cloudy beer with 3v or BIAB.
Even then, it'll probably drop out when it chills long term.

 

[Blazinlow86]

I guess...why does it matter?
If you're not using whirfloc or IM, you're getting cloudy beer with 3v or BIAB.
Even then, it'll probably drop out when it chills long term.

Not sure it matters at all. I was judt pointing out that In my experience it's true the wort comes out cloudy when removing the grain from the wort instead of the other way around. I also believe thats the reason people that make there living brewing beer also remove the wort from the grain. Either way can make a excellent end product. Cheers

 

[Blazinlow86]

Actually to that point I'm genuinely curious. Any pro brewers here to chime in as to why they aim to have the wort entering the kettle as clear as possible? I can't imagine they would spend extra time with no real reasoning. Cheers

 

[LittleRiver]

it's not sexy

...Portions of this thread play out in my shop on a daily basis... Yes, there is also a stigma with BIAB as some cut rate, half assed method of brewing. When I hear that nonsense, I pour a sample and point to the wall of blue ribbons...

Those two posts stand out in my mind as significant. I think they are the best posts of the whole thread.

The first is brutally honest and elegantly simple. I have a deep respect for that. That said, there is no escaping the shallowness it depicts. I am NOT saying that pbrennan is shallow, I am saying that we all are shallow at times. I love that pbrennan captured that so elegantly in so few words. Well done!

Bobby's statement is also brutally honest. His attitude is the reason I recently selected him for the hundreds of bucks I needed to spend for building my keezer. Even though I've never met him, I can see the honesty. I'm sure he ain't perfect (just like me), but I'm happy to spend my money with him, and I did.

 

[Blazinlow86]

Those two posts stand out in my mind as significant. I think they are the best posts of the whole thread.

The first is brutally honest and elegantly simple. I have a deep respect for that. That said, there is no escaping the shallowness it depicts. I am NOT saying that pbrennan is shallow, I am saying that we all are shallow at times. I love that pbrennan captured that so elegantly in so few words. Well done!

Bobby's statement is also brutally honest. His attitude is the reason I recently selected him for the hundreds of bucks I needed to spend for building my keezer. Even though I've never met him, I can see the honesty. I'm sure he ain't perfect (just like me), but I'm happy to spend my money with him, and I did.

Bobby definitely makes a good point. Award winning beer can be made in lots of ways, extract,biab, traditional etc regardless of the setup. It's not the system making the award winning beer it's the brewers skill set and process. Obviously some setups are better or worst suited depending on what your circumstances are. Cheers

 

[Blazinlow86]

Actually to that point I'm genuinely curious. Any pro brewers here to chime in as to why they aim to have the wort entering the kettle as clear as possible? I can't imagine they would spend extra time with no real reasoning. Cheers

I created a new thread to discuss this further and not take this to far off track if anyone is interested. A quick google search came up with a few points as to why clear wort into the kettle is advantages. Cheers

https://www.homebrewtalk.com/forum/index.php?threads/662924/

 

[yourlastchance89]

All that stuff you don’t remove when you don’t vorlauf will settle out on the bottom of your fermenter (if you’re lucky) making it more difficult to syphon and costing you beer in the process. And most of the time you will also not end up with a clear beer. Fine if you’re making NEIPA I guess.

This beer was an all-wheat, biab with no sparge or recirculation of any kind.

 

[sslater]

...And most of the time you will also not end up with a clear beer. Fine if you’re making NEIPA I guess.

But this is fallacy to say there is a built in sparge. There is no such thing. Sparging means rinsing your grain with fresh water, even if you pour some over the bag. Which is still not built in.

No need to belabor the fallacy about BIAB not producing clear beer. Some great pictures were posted by others showing clear BIAB beer that matches what I also experience. It “may” produce cloudier wort going into fermenter, but beer produced can be very clear - especially if you cold crash.

Pat Hollingdale is one of the main guys that invented the BIAB process and is the guy responsible for popularizing it. He is the person LittleRiver is talking about. I’ve heard him use the phrase “Continuous Sparge” when talking about traditional Full Volume BIAB. Pat says it’s all about grain contact time (with max volume of water), and makes a good case why full volume mash is as effective and less time consuming than running a separate sparge.

Check out Pat’s post (below link)...as he discusses this process, and side-by-side testing results. He goes by PistolPatch on the biabrewer.info website.

https://www.biabrewer.info/viewtopic.php?f=9&t=3130

I use traditional full volume BIAB and love the process. You can make great beer with this mashing process! Some of the nay-sayers on this site from 5 years ago (when I was researching full grain options) have been proven totally wrong. It is crazy to see some of this fallacious information, proven wrong years ago still being written in posts. But that’s probably human nature...

Naturally there are other ways to make good beer. Yooper (?) had a logical argument that it would be the wrong process for her. Nobody else in my homebrew group uses BIAB to mash, and most of them produce good beer as well. All have used conventional 3V processes for years and do not want to spend time learning a new way.

 

[Hwk-I-St8]

Well then me and lots of other folks get lucky all the time, because we get clear great tasting beer from our full volume single vessel BIAB process.

Here's a recent brew in which I dumped everything that was in the kettle into the fermenter. No finings of any type were used. All I did was cold crash a few days before packaging.

Brewhouse efficiency was 83%. Brew day took 3:40, from starting to fill kettle to everything cleaned and put away (no prior prep).

I appreciate you letting me know I've been doing it all wrong.

View attachment 614122

How do you get pictures like that? Every time I try to take a picture that shows how clear my beer is, there's condensation on the glass that makes it look cloudy. Do you let it warm up or something?

 

[LittleRiver]

How do you get pictures like that? ...

I didn't do anything special for the photo, I guess I just got lucky with the temperature and humidity in my shop that day.

My shop is heated with gas, so the air is a bit dry. I keep the temp a little on the cool side in the winter, low-mid 60's.

 

[Immocles]

Hiya folks. Hopefully this is a somewhat appropriate thread for my question, didn’t wanna make a new one...
I recently did my first biab a few weeks back and plan on doing a second one in the coming weeks. I’m aiming to burn up some LME that my wife randomly bought on amazon, so I figured it’d be a decent partial mash project. I did full volume no sparge on my first go, but with only about 2lbs of grain (3g recipe) to mash, am I better off adding a dunk sparge and mashing in less water? Is the mash too thin to do with the full 4ish gallons of strike water? I’m not opposed to the sparge, but if it’s an unneeded step, I’m all for eliminating it.

I apologize if it’s been asked, I only skimmed a few pages...

 

[RM-MN]

Hiya folks. Hopefully this is a somewhat appropriate thread for my question, didn’t wanna make a new one...
I recently did my first biab a few weeks back and plan on doing a second one in the coming weeks. I’m aiming to burn up some LME that my wife randomly bought on amazon, so I figured it’d be a decent partial mash project. I did full volume no sparge on my first go, but with only about 2lbs of grain (3g recipe) to mash, am I better off adding a dunk sparge and mashing in less water? Is the mash too thin to do with the full 4ish gallons of strike water? I’m not opposed to the sparge, but if it’s an unneeded step, I’m all for eliminating it.

I apologize if it’s been asked, I only skimmed a few pages...

This one is hard to decide. I think you want less water for the mash as the limited amount of grain may not bring your mash pH into the proper range. It won't be so critical with a smaller amount for the mash and then sparging. It will depend on the mineral content of the water whether the bigger volume for mashing is a problem or not.

 

[z-bob]

Hiya folks. Hopefully this is a somewhat appropriate thread for my question, didn’t wanna make a new one...
I recently did my first biab a few weeks back and plan on doing a second one in the coming weeks. I’m aiming to burn up some LME that my wife randomly bought on amazon, so I figured it’d be a decent partial mash project. I did full volume no sparge on my first go, but with only about 2lbs of grain (3g recipe) to mash, am I better off adding a dunk sparge and mashing in less water? Is the mash too thin to do with the full 4ish gallons of strike water? I’m not opposed to the sparge, but if it’s an unneeded step, I’m all for eliminating it.

I apologize if it’s been asked, I only skimmed a few pages...

That's an interesting question. I would probably do it no-sparge, but also not use the whole 4 gallons. Maybe 2 gallons, or 3 at the most. Then add more water and the LME after the mash.

 

[Murphys_Law]

This was once nothing but a bucket full of cloudy wort!

 

[fendersrule]

Since moving to B.I.A.B I've been getting exactly 69% efficiency with grains that are crushed at .027".

Using my partial mash muslin sock method I was around 58%--grains were crushed more coarse.

I'm really happy with 69% because it's consistent now (two back to back batches, so confirmed) and that's using untreated tap water. I also don't "Mash out", just a single-step mash.

The difference between 69% and 75% is $1.30ish in the grain bill.

I also started wrapping my kettle in a sleeping bag...I only lost 2F over one hour at 65F weather.

 

[jack13]

This was once nothing but a bucket full of cloudy wort!

View attachment 620083

Cream ale?

 

[Murphys_Law]

Cream ale?

Yeah. With jalapeno.

 

[Halfakneecap]

I brewed 3v for 5 or 6 years. Saw biab at a club brew day and was sold. Purely for the space saving in my garage. Was happy with my beers on the 3v and happy with them on the biab rig

 

[Vinman58]

I brewed 3v for 5 or 6 years. Saw biab at a club brew day and was sold. Purely for the space saving in my garage. Was happy with my beers on the 3v and happy with them on the biab rig

 

[Mer-man]

Yeah. With jalapeno.

Ok. Was wondering about that head

 

[eric19312]

So checking back in to add some thoughts about my experience adding a @wilserbrewer fabric filter to my three vessel process. Loving it but after three batches I still don't have my Beersmith settings adjusted properly.

I now understand and fully believe the efficiency claims from the experienced BIAB crowd. At end of lauter I've been hoisting my bag out of the mash tun and letting it fully drain. First time I did that got nearly 2 gallons of wort that I had to dump...no room in boil kettle. Second time the same. Wow figured out I needed to adjust my grain absorption rate in Beersmith. Did it again and still had too much...didn't realize I needed to change grain absorption setting on both desktop and tablet and when I ported my recipe to my tablet it changed the water quantities back to original overshoot...Still had about 85% mash efficiency, think were I will be when I get all those sugars into the boil kettle...

The hoist purchased with the bag is great. Am sure you can find something similar on Amazon but I'm really happy with this one. Got the heavier hoist and I am lifting bags that started with 30-35 pounds of grain no problem.

Cleanup is greatly improved vs cleaning mash tun without a bag. The mash tun is ready to clean sooner as I don't have to worry about cooling down that grain and even with my Blichmann autosparge almost no grain escapes the bag. A light scrub and rinse and the mash tun is done. There is no grain getting under my false bottom at all.

Disposal of the grain is greatly simplified. I used to dump the mash tun onto my driveway and let it rest/dry/cool there. Then shovel into grocery bags and throw away. Now I let the bag hang in the garage over a bucket and at end of brew day lower the bag into a hefty bag, open it up and dump it out. Bag gets rinsed off and hung to dry and the trash bag full of dry grain is tossed ... without breaking the hefty bag at least three out of three times I've tried it.

I am still doing 3 vessel but believe the addition of the bag is helping me get clearer wort into my brew kettle (I have no position in the debate about if that matters) and is reducing chance of stuck sparge. Even with decent adjunct load in the vessel I am able to run my recirculation pumps much faster (about 1.5-2 GPM) without any signs of compacting.

So after all this why don't I BIAB? I still like the three vessel process and have it built. But I am a big fan of the bag itself and highly recommend adding a bag to other three vessel brewers. And given my experience I can certainly understand why so many new brewers are starting and deciding to stay with BIAB.

Cheers!

 

[Blazinlow86]

So checking back in to add some thoughts about my experience adding a @wilserbrewer fabric filter to my three vessel process. Loving it but after three batches I still don't have my Beersmith settings adjusted properly.

I now understand and fully believe the efficiency claims from the experienced BIAB crowd. At end of lauter I've been hoisting my bag out of the mash tun and letting it fully drain. First time I did that got nearly 2 gallons of wort that I had to dump...no room in boil kettle. Second time the same. Wow figured out I needed to adjust my grain absorption rate in Beersmith. Did it again and still had too much...didn't realize I needed to change grain absorption setting on both desktop and tablet and when I ported my recipe to my tablet it changed the water quantities back to original overshoot...Still had about 85% mash efficiency, think were I will be when I get all those sugars into the boil kettle...

The hoist purchased with the bag is great. Am sure you can find something similar on Amazon but I'm really happy with this one. Got the heavier hoist and I am lifting bags that started with 30-35 pounds of grain no problem.

Cleanup is greatly improved vs cleaning mash tun without a bag. The mash tun is ready to clean sooner as I don't have to worry about cooling down that grain and even with my Blichmann autosparge almost no grain escapes the bag. A light scrub and rinse and the mash tun is done. There is no grain getting under my false bottom at all.

Disposal of the grain is greatly simplified. I used to dump the mash tun onto my driveway and let it rest/dry/cool there. Then shovel into grocery bags and throw away. Now I let the bag hang in the garage over a bucket and at end of brew day lower the bag into a hefty bag, open it up and dump it out. Bag gets rinsed off and hung to dry and the trash bag full of dry grain is tossed ... without breaking the hefty bag at least three out of three times I've tried it.

I am still doing 3 vessel but believe the addition of the bag is helping me get clearer wort into my brew kettle (I have no position in the debate about if that matters) and is reducing chance of stuck sparge. Even with decent adjunct load in the vessel I am able to run my recirculation pumps much faster (about 1.5-2 GPM) without any signs of compacting.

So after all this why don't I BIAB? I still like the three vessel process and have it built. But I am a big fan of the bag itself and highly recommend adding a bag to other three vessel brewers. And given my experience I can certainly understand why so many new brewers are starting and deciding to stay with BIAB.

Cheers!

Biab is definitely the most practical way to brew if it works for your process and or batch size. I'd recommend any new brewers give it a try first before using more complicated methods. Cheers

 

[VirginiaHops1]

Seems to me like the only reason you wouldn't BIAB is if your batch size is too large for it.

 

[Blazinlow86]

Seems to me like the only reason you wouldn't BIAB is if your batch size is too large for it.

Pretty much although some don't have vertical room, places to use a hoist or think the bags messy etc. The more I brew the more I realize that what works for me or millon other doesn't work for everyone. Often the reasons people do things differently than me for example are things that never even crossed my mind. They make sense once explaned however. Cheers

 

[bwible]

Very nice pictures of very clear beers, people. I’m impressed and now a bit intrigued.

Are you doing anything extra for your clarity, like irish moss or whirlfloc at the end of the boil or isinglass or gelatin in your secondary? Are you finding with no sparge biab that none of this is necessary?

Yes, I guess I had assumed there is “one way” to biab. As everyone describes soaking their bag and then draining it over the kettle via pulley or some other mechanism. And I guess I had assumed that cloudy wort in the fermenter would equal cloudy beer in the glass. I guess I’m a bit of a hard head as I have been brewing for over 20 years. Long before biab came along. And these are things we were “taught”.

I do have a bag, but I use it in conjunction with a dedicated mash tun which has a stainless false bottom. Like others said, I found the extra layer of filtration keeps even the slightest bits of grain from getting under the false bottom and it does make cleanup much quicker and easier.

I don’t go through a large amount of beer quickly these days, so I’ve taken to doing 3 gallon batches - which certainly seems like a decent size for biab. I may give it a shot soon and see for myself firsthand.

 

[LittleRiver]

...Are you doing anything extra for your clarity, like irish moss or whirlfloc at the end of the boil or isinglass or gelatin in your secondary? Are you finding with no sparge biab that none of this is necessary?

I always do a cold crash at the end of fermentation. For the beer in the photo I posted above, that's all I did. I do sometimes use gelatin.

...I do have a bag, but I use it in conjunction with a dedicated mash tun ....

It sounds like you have everything you need to try out single vessel BIAB. If you do, grind your grains extra fine and rig up some way of suspending the bag over the kettle for draining. Let it drain completely.

The BIAB process and clean up is so efficient you may feel like you're cheating, but you're not. ;-)