Why doesn’t everyone BIAB?

[Ninoid]

Nope, you're wrong. It's best for you. Others might find a 3vessel, all-in-one system, or even extract brew is the best for them.

And there is no standard or correct method of brewing let alone standard AG method.

You are right.
If someone wants to buy a much more expensive 3vessel system or use a more expensive extract instead of grain, BIAB is not the best system for it.

Given the initial price of the equipment and the ingredients I think that BIAB is the best.

 

[lump42]

You are right.
If someone wants to buy a much more expensive 3vessel system or use a more expensive extract instead of grain, BIAB is not the best system for it.

Given the initial price of the equipment and the ingredients I think that BIAB is the best.

It comes down to your limiting factor. Not everyone is in a position where money is most scarce. For some time is more of an issue. It also assumes all equipment is purchased for the hobby and not sitting around already.

If you take the time to actually read the responses in this thread, it's fairly obvious there is no standard method and no best way.

 

[eric19312]

You are right.
If someone wants to buy a much more expensive 3vessel system or use a more expensive extract instead of grain, BIAB is not the best system for it.

Given the initial price of the equipment and the ingredients I think that BIAB is the best.

Not necessarily trying to single @Ninoid out here but this post is pretty typical of where this thread has gone. The OP asked why people might choose not to BIAB and has received lots of posts. The defenders of BIAB jump on these posts one after another as being actually wrong or otherwise misinformed. They dynamic playing out here is that we are a community of people who have for the most part given serious thought to our brewing system, made a decision, and now find ourselves feeling some sort of need to defend our decision. Who ever wants to admit they picked second or third best? What kind of dimwit must I be?

Really go back to OP's question. I believe there is no best solution that fits every situation. In my case I did choose to build a direct fired natural gas recirculating three vessel two tier brewing system. Think about all the decisions built into that statement....NG vs propane vs Electric. Direct fire recirculating vs insulated MT vs HERMS vs RIMS. Three vessel vs 2 vessel vs single vessel. Kettle sizing, batch sizing. 1 or 2 pumps? Manual or automated control? Arrangement of tiers (I went with HLT high and MLT/BK low). My decisions were guided by my previous brewing experience, reading about others experience in here and other places on the internet. In designing my current system I considered things like dimensions of my brewing area, budget and upgradability. I do not recall having any misgivings about the quality of wort that could be generated using BIAB. I did like ability to do back to back batches (supported my decision to go with 2 pumps even though I had 2 tier system). And I was not space constrained and a linear brew stand fit well in the planned location. I can see if starting from scratch with no equipment on hand 3 vessel might be more expensive than single vessel but MY SITUATION included having two of my three vessels in hand when I made the decision. My choice at the time I made the decision was to buy either a 15 gallon kettle/MLT with a false bottom and 2 ports or a 20-25 gallon kettle configured for BIAB.

I am not saying that for you BIAB was not the clear best solution. No need to defend your decision!

To me a big part of the fun of the hobby is problem solving and tinkering. Thinking about it some more I hope I am never fully satisfied with my system or process. So while I could see I might go for BIAB under imaginable future situations I doubt I'd ever be happy with something like picobrew or grainfather.

 

[LittleRiver]

...The OP asked why people might choose not to BIAB and has received lots of posts. The defenders of BIAB jump on these posts one after another as being actually wrong or otherwise misinformed....

Some of those posts have included things like:

• BIAB is not safe
• you have to hold the bag with your arms while it drains
• it's more expensive
• your roof could fail
• efficiency is bad, you have to add extra grain
• you won't get clear beer
• etc.

You're dang right we've jumped on that kind of misinformation, and rightfully so.

That does not automatically mean we think BIAB is right for every situation, or for every brewer.

 

[Ninoid]

I not defend my setup and I think that BIAB is not best for everyone, but I think that is best for small investment (it is cheapest from any other system), better for beginners, it is easy, fast and adapted for brew in small apartment.

My setup is one plastic pot with electric heater, BIAB bag and brew in bathroom. Can someone brew in cheaper and simpler setup?

If some have larger place and wish to invest more money for equipment or brew beers for sale that would probably get a better beer. But the question is how much is better.

I would apologize to those I might have offended because this was not my intended.

 

[sslater]

I insulate the kettle for the mash and usually stay within 1deg of target (I always stay within 1deg for the first 10-15min, by which time conversion is complete).

LittleRiver - are you saying you only do a 15 minute mash - entirely??? That's it?!?!? And get 82-84% EIB / Efficiency Into Boil / Mash Efficiency? (But with that I should also ask the OG because that is a factor too). And if so, wonder if it would go higher with longer mash time?

 

[lump42]

I not defend my setup and I think that BIAB is not best for everyone, but I think that is best for small investment (it is cheapest from any other system), better for beginners, it is easy, fast and adapted for brew in small apartment.

My setup is one plastic pot with electric heater, BIAB bag and brew in bathroom. Can someone brew in cheaper and simpler setup?

If some have larger place and wish to invest more money for equipment or brew beers for sale that would probably get a better beer. But the question is how much is better.

I would apologize to those I might have offended because this was not my intended.

Would agree it is the best setup for you.

I can buy extract in bulk, and brew in a soup kettle I already own for cheaper. I could brew batches in an hour and half. It would take quite a number of batches to break even with the larger BIAB kettle purchased.

Cheaper, easier, simpler.

Or

I already own 10gal kettle and propane burner from frying turkeys, several coolers from camping, extra plumping bits left over from plumbing repairs. Little bit of time and I have a mash tun and brew kettle for nothing. Cheap and easy.

 

[BarleyStanding]

LittleRiver - are you saying you only do a 15 minute mash - entirely??? That's it?!?!? And get 82-84% EIB / Efficiency Into Boil / Mash Efficiency? (But with that I should also ask the OG because that is a factor too). And if so, wonder if it would go higher with longer mash time?

I've measured conversion the last 2 brews, one a 13# grist, the other 7#, and both showed complete at 20 minutes, 149 F. I still go the 60 minutes, but I think conversion is mostly done within 15-30 minutes.

 

[LittleRiver]

LittleRiver - are you saying you only do a 15 minute mash - entirely??? That's it?!?!?...

No. I've said I do 60min mashes.

Conversion is complete within the first 10-15min. I mentioned that as it relates to temperature control. I put a sleeping bag over the kettle during the mash and maintain within 1degF for the entire hour most of the year. In the coldest months it'll drop a few more degrees. But I always stay within 1degF for the first 15min, when conversion is happening. No RIMS, no recirculation, no additional heat added during the mash -- just a $14 kids sleeping bag.

...And get 82-84% EIB / Efficiency Into Boil / Mash Efficiency? (But with that I should also ask the OG because that is a factor too). And if so, wonder if it would go higher with longer mash time?

I consistently get low 80's brewhouse efficiency with a full volume mash, which lines up with Doug's simulation. I could get higher if I did separate sparge steps, but I normally don't bother.

If I experiment more with mash time it will be the other direction, with 45min mashes. I don't expect that I will be able to tell any difference in efficiency or taste.

 

[applescrap]

I not defend my setup and I think that BIAB is not best for everyone, but I think that is best for small investment (it is cheapest from any other system), better for beginners, it is easy, fast and adapted for brew in small apartment.

My setup is one plastic pot with electric heater, BIAB bag and brew in bathroom. Can someone brew in cheaper and simpler setup?

If some have larger place and wish to invest more money for equipment or brew beers for sale that would probably get a better beer. But the question is how much is better.

I would apologize to those I might have offended because this was not my intended.

plastic pot in bathroom with electric element? Thats awesome. Would love to see the pot.

 

[sslater]

I consistently get low 80's brewhouse efficiency with a full volume mash, which lines up with Doug's simulation. I could get higher if I did separate sparge steps, but I normally don't bother.

If I experiment more with mash time it will be the other direction, with 45min mashes. I don't expect that I will be able to tell any difference in efficiency or taste.

I normally brew beers that end up around 5% ABV or so. Actually, think I’ve run between 3.8 and 8.9% ABV. Efficiency is not the same on a 3.8% Dry Irish Stout and a 8.9% double IPA. So the “low 80s” is for certain gravities and to my understanding will change depending on OG. Doing LHBS grind and a 90 minute mash I normally would be in the 90-92% range for a dry Irish Stout, 76-77% for the DIPA, and for a 5% ABV Pilsner - in that 82-84%. These are quick estimates, without reviewing notes.

Not familiar with Doug’s simulation...

I ordered the mills today and will experiment with this... It would be very interesting if I could get good results with a 45 minute mash.

 

[sslater]

I've measured conversion the last 2 brews, one a 13# grist, the other 7#, and both showed complete at 20 minutes, 149 F. I still go the 60 minutes, but I think conversion is mostly done within 15-30 minutes.

Just caught your post, BarleyStanding... Interesting.

I’m wondering what the impact difference in Beta and Alpha Amalyse temps will have - real world... Will we notice any difference in flavor? May have to do some testing.

 

[Ninoid]

plastic pot in bathroom with electric element? Thats awesome. Would love to see the pot.

Something like in this video, but smaller (35L) and one heating element (2000W), same as in this video (from kitchen electric kettle). And with plastic lid.

 

[RM-MN]

LittleRiver - are you saying you only do a 15 minute mash - entirely??? That's it?!?!? And get 82-84% EIB / Efficiency Into Boil / Mash Efficiency? (But with that I should also ask the OG because that is a factor too). And if so, wonder if it would go higher with longer mash time?

Conversion is complete within the first 10-15min. I mentioned that as it relates to temperature control. I put a sleeping bag over the kettle during the mash and maintain within 1degF for the entire hour most of the year. In the coldest months it'll drop a few more degrees. But I always stay within 1degF for the first 15min, when conversion is happening. No RIMS, no recirculation, no additional heat added during the mash -- just a $14 kids sleeping bag.

I've experimented with short mashes using the iodine test for starch and find the with my very fine milling the conversion is done in less than the 15 minutes mentioned but that it takes longer to extract the flavors from the grains. From that experimentation I do not recommend a mash of less than 30 minutes unless you like flavorless beer. I didn't find any difference in ferementability with shorter mashes or longer mashes so I usually stop at 30 minutes. Then if I feel short on time to finish the brew I go to a 30 minute boil too.

 

[applescrap]

I normally brew beers that end up around 5% ABV or so. Actually, think I’ve run between 3.8 and 8.9% ABV. Efficiency is not the same on a 3.8% Dry Irish Stout and a 8.9% double IPA. So the “low 80s” is for certain gravities and to my understanding will change depending on OG. Doing LHBS grind and a 90 minute mash I normally would be in the 90-92% range for a dry Irish Stout, 76-77% for the DIPA, and for a 5% ABV Pilsner - in that 82-84%. These are quick estimates, without reviewing notes.

Not familiar with Doug’s simulation...

I ordered the mills today and will experiment with this... It would be very interesting if I could get good results with a 45 minute mash.

Yeah, interesting for me too, since I chose 45 minutes as a good mash time for my quick brew days, not to long, not to short.

 

[applescrap]

I've experimented with short mashes using the iodine test for starch and find the with my very fine milling the conversion is done in less than the 15 minutes mentioned but that it takes longer to extract the flavors from the grains. From that experimentation I do not recommend a mash of less than 30 minutes unless you like flavorless beer. I didn't find any difference in ferementability with shorter mashes or longer mashes so I usually stop at 30 minutes. Then if I feel short on time to finish the brew I go to a 30 minute boil too.

With a 30 mash and 30 boil I think I could get well under 2.5 hours. I let the lhbs grind my grain. Why do their mills suck, I mean they are commercial grinders? How much does grind matter for efficiency in biab. I have asked before but remain hazy.

 

[RM-MN]

With a 30 mash and 30 boil I think I could get well under 2.5 hours. I let the lhbs grind my grain. Why do their mills suck, I mean they are commercial grinders? How much does grind matter for efficiency in biab. I have asked before but remain hazy.

Their mills do not suck. Indeed most of them have excellent mills but they mill for the majority of their customers who want a smooth brew day without a chance of a stuck mash or sparge and who don't care if their efficiency sucks because it only takes another pound or so of malt to offset their poor efficiency and they don't care if the mash takes 90 to 120 minutes to complete as that is drinking time.

Conversion of starch to fermentable sugars happens when the starch is gelatinized or thoroughly wetted AND the grain/water mix is within the temperature range where the enzymes that do that job are active. The conversion itself happens very quickly. The gelatinization of the starch is what takes time and the larger the paticles, the more time it takes.

Briess malting has shown that they can get very good conversion with whole grains. What they don't mention is the time it takes and that during that entire time the mash needs to be at a constant temperature. They also don't say what portion of the converted sugars they are able to get out of the whole grains. The smaller the grain particles, the easier it will be to extract the sugars. While the conversion may complete, if the sugars stay locked in the grain particles, that affects your lauter efficiency, the ability to extract the sugars. If the mash efficiency is 98% but the sugars can't be extracted well so your lauter efficiency is only 50% (random numbers) your brewhouse efficiency can never get beyond the 50% and is likely to be lower due to wort left behind.

 

[eric19312]

So this thread convinced me to order a brewing bag in hopes it will make cleaning my mash tun easier. Sticking with 3 vessel but really curious to see if hoisting the bag of spent grain is easier way to muck out my mash tun.

 

[applescrap]

Keep in mind the bag of grains could mess with drainage out of a port but with a false bottom I doubt it. Question is will you squeeze the sack a little. Of course I like to talk about squeezing my sack. I turn mine inside out right over the dumpster if there is already some trash in there. If not I turn it inside-out right into a bag. I hold it with my thumb and index finger up in front of me and then wash it from top down. You will be able to see it rinse straight down. Then dunk it and clean like that or just dunk to clean it anyways. Don't worry about it too much just hang it up and shake it out later.

 

[LittleRiver]

I normally brew beers that end up around 5% ABV or so...

Most of mine are around 5-6% ABV, though for the next one my next one my target will be 8%. I'll probably do a separate sparge step for it.

Not familiar with Doug’s simulation...

It's the work of HBT user doug293cz, here's the chart he has posted:

 

[eric19312]

Keep in mind the bag of grains could mess with drainage out of a port but with a false bottom I doubt it. Question is will you squeeze the sack a little. Of course I like to talk about squeezing my sack. I turn mine inside out right over the dumpster if there is already some trash in there. If not I turn it inside-out right into a bag. I hold it with my thumb and index finger up in front of me and then wash it from top down. You will be able to see it rinse straight down. Then dunk it and clean like that or just dunk to clean it anyways. Don't worry about it too much just hang it up and shake it out later.

My mash tun has false bottom and dip tube that drains from under the false bottom.

My plan is to mount the hoist about 3 feet in front of the brew stand. Then once my lautering is done and residual water drained from the tun I will attach the hoist to the mash tun (or bag will have to see what works best) and take out the slack. Then I will move the mash tun to a milk crate under the hoist, allowing the rope to carry the weight, and then hoist the bag out of the mash tun. It can drain into the mash tun or a handy bucket while the wort boils. I'll use my chilling water to give the mash tun a warm water scrub & rinse and probably last thing I will do on the brew day is dump the grain bag into a hefty sack lined bucket, tie that off and drop it into my trash can. I don't see any reason to squeeze the bag in this scenario.

 

[NewJersey]

since the advent of this thread I've still been pondering this from time to time.
for home brewing it is the superior option.
i look at 3v systems and am just puzzled.

 

[bendog15]

I respect 3 vessel brewing. Some call it old school or traditional. I’ve always been an admirer from afar. I wish I had a garage and the room to do it. I simply don’t. I would never bash 3V brewers and I think it’s a really cool way to brew. For me, I like what BIAB offers and go that route. This hobby is awesome, and you can go about it so many different ways. That’s what makes it so cool.

 

[Waunabeer]

I've been using a 3v system for nearly 10 years. First it was gravity fed and now using two pumps to control moving the wort. As I get older, I don't want to lift/move heavy objects more and more (old shoulder injuries). I've also always used natural gas burners, in my basement brew room. I have a CO2 detector in there and with a window cracked and/or the amount of make-up air in the basement, it has never gone off.

With that being said, and even though it has worked great, I've always wanted to get into electric brewing for the amount of control and its simplicity. With the newer electric coils (SSVR) that will not scorch the grain bag and/or wort, it was more appealing than ever. With this eBIAB approach, I hope to better control my step mashes with the touch of a button (no RIMS, no HERMS). I can still recirculate the mash using the pump (not sure it will help efficiency), but it's still easy and won't have to worry about a stuck mash. For those of you whom haven't seen the write up from Brulosophy, here is the link. http://brulosophy.com/2018/12/20/ss-brewtech-1v-electric-brewing-system-product-review/

That is the system I will be trying next week when it arrives and will hopefully have the same success and excitement as they had. Stay tuned!!

Even though I can do 10g batches now, I like the idea of brewing different flavors more often and trying new things. If it works well, maybe I'll convert my 15g boil kettle to eBIAB too. Either way, brew your beer the way you see fit and enjoy the process. I have!

 

[Qhrumphf]

since the advent of this thread I've still been pondering this from time to time.
for home brewing it is the superior option.
i look at 3v systems and am just puzzled.

*for 5-10 gals at moderate grain bills

If you think big beers and big batches make sense for anyone with BIAB you haven't been reading.

MOST homebrewers would be fine with that. There are plenty brewing 15 gals, or brewing 10 gals of high gravity, at which point the grain weight becomes unwieldy even with winch systems. Can be done? Sure. Less enticing? Absolutely.

For me there's also the efficiency. Anyone who claims they can get 95% efficiency into the kettle with BIAB, I emphatically call their bluff. I don't care how fine you mill (I get 99-100% conversion, fast, just like you do any way) or how much you squeeze, I don't buy it.

If you sparge you could do it. But then the difference fades quickly since you need at least a separate hot liquor source.

 

[RM-MN]

If you sparge you could do it. But then the difference fades quickly since you need at least a separate hot liquor source.

No need for hot liquor source, sparging with cool water works just as well. I do a double batch sparge with water right from the tap (private well, no chlorine). Some people might need a bucket to carry the water.

 

[NewJersey]

*for 5-10 gals at moderate grain bills

If you think big beers and big batches make sense for anyone with BIAB you haven't been reading.

MOST homebrewers would be fine with that. There are plenty brewing 15 gals, or brewing 10 gals of high gravity, at which point the grain weight becomes unwieldy even with winch systems. Can be done? Sure. Less enticing? Absolutely.

For me there's also the efficiency. Anyone who claims they can get 95% efficiency into the kettle with BIAB, I emphatically call their bluff. I don't care how fine you mill (I get 99-100% conversion, fast, just like you do any way) or how much you squeeze, I don't buy it.

If you sparge you could do it. But then the difference fades quickly since you need at least a separate hot liquor source.

Agreed. 5-10 gallon. That is what i take "how brewing" to mean.
I suppose one could brew 3 bbl at "home", but that is not what i understand home brewing to be. Given that you can only make 200 gallons a year and not sell any....
I was just at my favorite brewery today (Kane brewing in Ocean township, NJ) and marvel at their pro equipment, but for home brewing it would be ludicrous!

 

[Blazinlow86]

Agreed. 5-10 gallon. That is what i take "how brewing" to mean.
I suppose one could brew 3 bbl at "home", but that is not what i understand home brewing to be. Given that you can only make 200 gallons a year and not sell any....
I was just at my favorite brewery today (Kane brewing in Ocean township, NJ) and marvel at their pro equipment, but for home brewing it would be ludicrous!

Out of curiosity what would you call someone like myself that brews 1/2 barrel batches **at home**, doesn't have a 200 gallon a year limitation and uses a process that replicates a pro setup? Cheers

 

[LittleRiver]

Out of curiosity what would you call someone like myself that brews 1/2 barrel batches **at home**, doesn't have a 200 gallon a year limitation and uses a process that replicates a pro setup? Cheers

I would call it a for profit nanobrewery.

Even though I haven't seen you explicity state that you sell your beer, it's pretty obvious what's going on, even if you hide it under the guise of friends giving you money for ingredients. I don't say that judgmentally, I'm OK with it.

 

[Blazinlow86]

I would call it a for profit nanobrewery.

Even though I haven't seen you explicity state that you sell your beer, it's pretty obvious what's going on, even if you hide it under the guise of friends giving you money for ingredients. I don't say that judgmentally, I'm OK with it.

Sure I brew for myself and others at the same time. They pay for the ingredients or will supply the ingredients for the full batch. i generally keep 1/3 of the finished product and the leftover supplies for myself and rinse and repeat 24 times a year. Basically I do the labor and they supply the materials and equipment. Theres no "profit" as I was always upgrading to keep improving my beers. Sure at this point my equipment has payed itself off and theres not really anything left to buy i dont already have but I put in alot of hours as a trade off to get all that free equipment. i guess you could say if i called it quits tommorow and sold all the gear that would be the "profit" but thats not happening anytime soon and even then i might be able to get 5g tops for everything so not a very great return for the hours invested as far as profit is involved . My point was imho the definition of a homebrewer is someone who brews at home. Just because someone takes there brewing as serious as the pros and/or makes bigger batches doesn't make them less of a homebrewer. I'd almost say it's the opposite. somebody that makes 400g of beer a year at home is a more a homebrewer than somebody that makes 20g imho.

Remember the question was" why doesn't **EVERYONE** biab" and wasnt " why doesn't everyone in the USA brewing 5g of beer biab"

all this biab talk has got me thinking i should order a element to finish up my 5g ebiab kettle that i bought a few years ago. anyone have any recommendations on a current all stainless ulwd 220v element. it would need to be 10inches or less in length. cheers