Late to the glassware discussion, but lately I've been doing most of my drinking from my Holy Grail.
The craft beer bubble is busting.
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Kirkwooder
Emperor of all things nobody cares about
Would that be considered stemware?
VirginiaHops1
Well-Known Member
My area(Virginia suburbs/exurbs of Washington DC) has breweries opening up all over the place. It helps the laws are very brewery friendly. I've wondered about the over-saturation point myself but it doesn't seem like we're there yet. The biggest issue is so many of them just don't make great beer. There will be failures because of that.
SoCal-Doug
Well-Known Member
That's a huge problem in my area also. So many young hipsters and bar flys that think whatever pubs have is how beer should be. Or maybe because someone goes into business and spends a ton of money on equipment, their beer must be awesome. I'm so tired of ordering a $9 pint of cloudy "Authentic Pilsner Lager" that was obviously made with the cheapest 2-row available, loaded with diacetyl, dank hops at twice the ibu's it should have, wierd esters, most likely fermented at 80F with WLP001, and kegged 3 hours after fermentation was done.
The other issue is food. It's extremely rare to find a place to have a couple beers and at least a snack or sandwich. If im' hungry and thirsty, and go out to eat first, i'll probably have a beer there, then go home and skip the pub.
Brettomomyces
LHBS Curmudgeon
This this this this, I'd swear you live where I do
madscientist451
Well-Known Member
I just refuse to do that. I'm not paying that much for a glass of beer.
But if fools want to sit at that bar and blow their cash, its still a free country, so go for it.
deadwolfbones
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shoreman
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I think in craft these days you really have to follow the trends, not over leverage yourself and be on the forefront of your area to survive. The craft beer drinker has changed and its no longer about brew pub style beers like a simple pale ale, hefe & solid golden ale.
I've read that wine-influence beers and blends are coming up quickly. If you are a commercial brewer you better hop to it or you will get left behind. These small tap room brewers are super nimble and can jump on a trend quickly. Its not for me, but I'm not the craft beer customer of 2019.
You even see the big boys like Sam Adams and Sierra Nevada making these moves - they are not stupid and are putting out Brut IPAs, NE Hazeboys Beers and the like to stay current. I'm afraid if you are not willing to go that route than you should honestly close up shop.
I've read that wine-influence beers and blends are coming up quickly. If you are a commercial brewer you better hop to it or you will get left behind. These small tap room brewers are super nimble and can jump on a trend quickly. Its not for me, but I'm not the craft beer customer of 2019.
You even see the big boys like Sam Adams and Sierra Nevada making these moves - they are not stupid and are putting out Brut IPAs, NE Hazeboys Beers and the like to stay current. I'm afraid if you are not willing to go that route than you should honestly close up shop.
I’ve seen a very similar trend in the Sac area. Almost every brewery around here has several variations of IPAs on tap. They vary greatly in quality/flavor. The trend right now seems as though the NEIpa is starting to phase out and everyone is trying to find the next “thing”.
That said, all of the breweries around here that have grown quickly have specialized in some type of IPA. There are a few places that are producing interesting takes on other varieties. Very few actually do 6-12 month barrel aging. Most of the time you can tell the beers are being turned over to quickly.
Most breweries near me also rely on food trucks due to the extensive costs of licensing and inspections for serving food.
SoCal-Doug
Well-Known Member
IPA's aren't even remotely similar to what the original IPA's were. They need to be honest and come up with a new name. They have gone from hoppy to absolutely gut dissolving stupid. I don't consider them beer anymore. It was like they competed with each other on who could have the highest IBU's without putting someone in the emergency room.
deadwolfbones
Well-Known Member
You sound like you're a few years behind the trends. Today's IPAs are way lower IBU than they used to be. The trend is fruity/juicy, soft, and definitely NOT bitter (but full of hop flavor).
The IBUs definitely were getting out of hand a couple years back, though. Then the market corrected, as usual.
SoCal-Doug
Well-Known Member
In my area, we are just now starting to see a tap here or there with a hazy/juicy or whatever the new buzzword for ridiculous dry-hopping is. It's still very rare and most commonly it's 75+ IBU's in anything from a lager or red, to a stout with 120 IBU's. There are exceptions of course, but they are few and far between still.
On a good note, I know of two very high quality places within 20 miles of home that I try to patronize whenever possible. The folks at both places really know their stuff and try very hard for quality and affordability. They are very small and I fear they won't make it because they are not following the trends and have smaller output and intermittent offerings.
One larger place doing a great business, somewhat locally, had the most awesome yummy perfect Saison i've had anywhere (excluding a real Dupont of course). They would send kegs to local restaurants and other pubs. They also received many awards. One day it was gone. I finally spoke with the brewer and he said "I just can't sell a Saison. People either don't know what it is or they are afraid to order something unfamiliar with a foreign name. We couldn't discount it or even give it away. The kegs would go stale". THAT'S the market we live in!
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deadwolfbones
Well-Known Member
Yeah, it sucks. There are a lot of styles I wish would get more traction (dark mild, for one), but not enough people want to pay for them. We have a new brewery here in the Bend area, Porter Brewing, that specializes in English cask ales. I wish them all the luck in the world, but it's damn hard to survive as a specialty/niche brewery these days unless you've got massive hype behind you (like some wild/sour breweries) or are from a region that has a strong historical preference for a certain style (generally small breweries outside America).
Interesting. Similar to Deadwolfbones, the big IBU rush has more or less come and gone around me. Now its the big late hop addition crazy. Only places I’ve been to in the last 8 months that had the huge IBU beers was the Inland Empire and Bakersfield area. I’m glad the giant IBU crazy has passed!
SoCal-Doug
Well-Known Member
madscientist451
Well-Known Member
The dirty little secret of craft brewing is the highest rated beers are high alcohol DIPAs. High ABV imperial this or that are also popular. The drinking public wants to get their buzz on and with the ridiculous craft beer six-pack prices, its easier to justify paying $12 for a 8%+ beer.
I'm mostly staying home these days, brewing (and drinking) my boring low ABV oat mild, Bavarian lagers and rye session ales. When I do go out, if the tap and bottle list don't interest me, I go for PBR. At least I know what I'll get.
I'm mostly staying home these days, brewing (and drinking) my boring low ABV oat mild, Bavarian lagers and rye session ales. When I do go out, if the tap and bottle list don't interest me, I go for PBR. At least I know what I'll get.
Kirkwooder
Emperor of all things nobody cares about
The reason that you are seeing so many IPA'S is that they are by far the most popular beers for most of these micro's. It's hard to have a sour on tap that doesn't sell a keg in a week when the three taps next to it, have IPA's that sell out as fast as they can make them.
While I am an admitted hop head, I do like to see a varied selection of well done styles on tap at a micro brewery. Around us the new tendency is to brew what you brew well and then share with other micro's in the area. We have a wonderful cidery in our area and their ciders are available at several of the local brewpubs and vise versa. One local micro is well known for their hop forward beers ( drinking one right now) while another for their British, malt forward ales. Another does a couple wonderful american lagers. All three serve one another's offerings on occasion.
I'm all for this idea. A group of friends can all share an outing and enjoy the best of several breweries, without having to drive anywhere to do so.
While I am an admitted hop head, I do like to see a varied selection of well done styles on tap at a micro brewery. Around us the new tendency is to brew what you brew well and then share with other micro's in the area. We have a wonderful cidery in our area and their ciders are available at several of the local brewpubs and vise versa. One local micro is well known for their hop forward beers ( drinking one right now) while another for their British, malt forward ales. Another does a couple wonderful american lagers. All three serve one another's offerings on occasion.
I'm all for this idea. A group of friends can all share an outing and enjoy the best of several breweries, without having to drive anywhere to do so.
Yup. You nailed it. I live in the Inland Empire (Corona/Norco area)
Temecula is the mind blower. There's probably 20 breweries within a mile or two of each other. Definitely approaching critical mass down there. One from Corona is now adding a second site in Temecula now.
Hah. I used to live up the street from Hangar 24 back when they were actually brewing in a hangar. I’ve heard Temecula had alot of craft brews, but I didn’t realize it was that many. Hardly recognize the place when I drive through from San Diego. Hopefully more variety will prevail sooner than later. Then again you have to give the audience what it wants.
Wish this was the case here. Everyone near me seems to do “collabs”. Something with state law prevents one brewery from selling beer from another brewery, but if you collaborate then your good to go. But hey, at least we can now reuse growlers from other breweries. That’s progress.
Around here sours are just as trendy as late hop hazebombs.
Everyone has to make both or become irrelevant.
These are, of course, fruited quick sours.
VirginiaHops1
Well-Known Member
And it's especially true for the breweries who distribute. I've read that many brewers are frustrated because their distributors want so many IPAs(because they sell), and they often don't want the same ones over and over. That's hurting quality too, because these guys are trying to crank out new recipes every week often without much testing. Although the really good breweries in my area are nailing it.
One reason IPAs are so popular now is it's such a broad category, taste-wise. Stretches from the hazy juice bombs with no bitterness(which probably should be a brand new category) to dank IBU-laced DIPAs, and everything in between. My wife was a much bigger wine drinker but she's gotten into the soft fruity IPAs lately.
In reading this thread, I have come to the conclusion that craft beer is far from "bubble bursting". Yes some areas seem to be saturated, some breweries are succumbing to competition. Most of these are larger ones that either close or have to scale way back. When you have a large operation it is difficult to scale back because of your facility and equipment investment.
But nation/world wide there are huge areas that have not been saturated. These area are getting new breweries. The total production is probably not changing to a large degree.
I see a lot more micro - small - to medium sized breweries than a decade ago. Most have limited distribution, if any. A local brewery a few years ago had no distribution. They only brewed for their premises. It has since moved to a larger facility, has distribution to local watering holes. All within 25 miles of the brewery.
I don't buy out too often, and I usually don't compare and just order an interesting sounding craft beer. But I don't see a huge difference between the BMC beers and the craft beers. They are both too expensive. But only a dollar maybe 2 dollars more for the craft beer. In my area, the prices are not the $9+ being quoted. At least a little lower than that.
But nation/world wide there are huge areas that have not been saturated. These area are getting new breweries. The total production is probably not changing to a large degree.
I see a lot more micro - small - to medium sized breweries than a decade ago. Most have limited distribution, if any. A local brewery a few years ago had no distribution. They only brewed for their premises. It has since moved to a larger facility, has distribution to local watering holes. All within 25 miles of the brewery.
I don't buy out too often, and I usually don't compare and just order an interesting sounding craft beer. But I don't see a huge difference between the BMC beers and the craft beers. They are both too expensive. But only a dollar maybe 2 dollars more for the craft beer. In my area, the prices are not the $9+ being quoted. At least a little lower than that.
30 cent homebrew (pretty dam good too) vs $5+ for Craft! Not much competition. I'm part of the older crew and don't go to bars too often. Usually it is when travelling with the Company Credit Card, or a couple of drinks with meals, or after golf or a movie. Gone are the days when I'd spend an evening in the bar ........ how did I ever afford it when I was younger!
I may be wrong, but I really think there are too many craft breweries, and many of them are going to fail. The big boys are going to come in with cheaper versions, and unless you have something other than the beer to keep people coming in thru your doors, you are not going to survive because you will get the BudMiloor 'Craft' beers at all the 'regular' places.
It will be interesting to see how this plays out over time. I hope these entrepreneurs survive .... at least the ones who are producing good beer.
I may be wrong, but I really think there are too many craft breweries, and many of them are going to fail. The big boys are going to come in with cheaper versions, and unless you have something other than the beer to keep people coming in thru your doors, you are not going to survive because you will get the BudMiloor 'Craft' beers at all the 'regular' places.
It will be interesting to see how this plays out over time. I hope these entrepreneurs survive .... at least the ones who are producing good beer.
How are you producing 30¢ homebrews? Wouldn’t that be ~$15 per 5 gal?
I know of two breweries local to me that were created with the purpose of getting big, and selling out to the highest bidder. The service there is generally not great. There are a few others that really take pride in the craft, and love being small and having the freedom to experiment. These guys make killer beer, distro is growing at a slow, steady pace and they help out other craft breweries in the area.
Edited: Formatting and spelling errors
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Kirkwooder
Emperor of all things nobody cares about
VirginiaHops1
Well-Known Member
Breweries will fail, but I think you're wrong for why some will fail. The market may reach saturation point in some areas, which will put a lot of stress on the craft breweries making mediocre beer. But I doubt the big boys will have anything to do with craft breweries failing. People who care enough about beer quality to pay more and buy craft beer also generally have a desire to support the local breweries, and the knowledge of which ones are not. The breweries who sold out to InBev have gotten a lot of backlash for it. When I buy beer I go out of my way to not buy anything from InBev(Goose Island, Wicked Weed, Devils Backbone, Elysian, etc). Not because I think it sucks, I just like supporting the smaller breweries. Everyone I've ever talked to who is really into craft beer feels the same way. There have always been cheaper beer options, yet the craft scene has flourished because there's a segment of the market that is willing to pay more for better quality. The same reason high end (insert literally any product) are able to flourish despite there being cheaper options.
I buy my grain in bulk, so 5lbs of 2-row and 5lbs of wheat are $6.00 total. I buy my hops in bulk. if you look at hopsdirect.com right now, click on the HOP SALE tab and get all kinds of hops for $5-$10/pound. That makes 2oz of hops $1.25. Yeast on eBay runs from $1.30 to $6 a pack. Even if I go with a $5 yeast, that is just $12.25 total.
But you start with horse feed......
com'on now..you know it's chicken feed! lol
edit: and i just brewed 3 batches for about 25 a piece for 10 gals, using breiss....so still cheaper then 15 for a 5 gal batch
I just took a hard look at my chicken feed...then walked away. No chicken poo brew for me. Thats awesome though! And the horses say “Nay!”
Never really sat down and crunched prices as I dont drink as often as I used to and get too much free beer as it is. Those are great prices compared to commercial brews.
Thank you for correcting me gentlemen.
Kirkwooder
Emperor of all things nobody cares about
That is what I meant by, being creative with what's in your environment.
it's 1:40pm i'm brewing, and up to a 6 pack....and find my self confused on the last two posts.....lol
1) i don't feed it too chickens first, so just sprouted barley, that's been dried, then lightly toasted at 150f for 12 hours....
2) 4 pages 152 posts, i must have missed something along the way.....
and many of these for effect....
1) i don't feed it too chickens first, so just sprouted barley, that's been dried, then lightly toasted at 150f for 12 hours....
2) 4 pages 152 posts, i must have missed something along the way.....
and many of these for effect....
applescrap
Be the ball!
Nice form here. Need to check out yeast online.
applescrap
Be the ball!
Bad Bubba
Well-Known Member
I am not sure that one brewery closing constitutes the bubble bursting. But I have seen many breweries close both here in Colorado and in California. There are a lot of reasons why they close and it is not usually they make bad beer. Right now the growth of craft beer sales is close to flat so in order to sell your product you need to take market share away from someone else. So we are moving from a growth market to a mature market. The craft beer business has gone through years of rapid growth and is entering a time where you have to be a little more nimble to survive. But that is the more normal way of all business. Craft beer is not going to become irrelevant but if you want to open a craft brewery today the challenges are going to be different from the guys who opened 10 years ago.
There a many different business models with different challenges and approaches. If you want to produce enough beer to distribute you are facing different challenges than the guy who sells all his beer on premise.
There a many different business models with different challenges and approaches. If you want to produce enough beer to distribute you are facing different challenges than the guy who sells all his beer on premise.
https://www.usatoday.com/story/mone...ands-more-than-7-000-breweries-us/2206013002/
Craft had a great growth year in 2017 of almost 6 percent. 2018 was somewhere around half of that depending on the particular metric (on vs off-premises, for instance). There are a lot of industries that would love to see 2.5-3% yearly growth...
Cheers!
Craft had a great growth year in 2017 of almost 6 percent. 2018 was somewhere around half of that depending on the particular metric (on vs off-premises, for instance). There are a lot of industries that would love to see 2.5-3% yearly growth...
Cheers!
Bulk grain, and there are a lot of folks on here buying for a lot less than I do. 1 lb base malt = $0.90, 1 lb specialty malt = $1.30.
Bulk hops; generally run about 75 cents an ounce, some more, some less.
Reuse yeast. A yeast vial is probably used for up to 20 brews. I do need to use a starter occasionally to refresh it, so I assume $1.00 per batch for yeast. I have about 18 different yeasts that I pull from.
So, for a 1.056 OG 5 gallon Pale Ale:
8.5 lbs Base Malt = $7.30
1 lb Speciality Malt = $1.30
6 ozs hops = $4.50
Yeast = $1.00
Misc = $0.90 (salts, gelatin, fermcap, sanitizer, etc).
TOTAL = $15.00
50 bottles = $0.30 per bottle.
Belgians, even big ones are cheaper due to having lots of plain sugar, and not a lot of hops. Porters and Stouts are also cheaper due to low hop rates. IPAs are obviously more, due to high hopping rates and more grain.
applescrap
Be the ball!
^^please share where you are getting 12 dollar pounds of hops!
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Someone said it before. 16 pages later the OP started this thread and hasn’t posted since!
Have any of you guys purchased a commercial $18 bomber that was barrel aged for 2 years only for it to be completely flat and undrinkable???
Have any of you guys purchased a commercial $18 bomber that was barrel aged for 2 years only for it to be completely flat and undrinkable???
