Probiotics, Bacteria Starters, No-Boil, Hop Teas, and more - my first co-pitched Gose

[FatDragon]

I'm planning on throwing together a quick and dirty co-pitched Gose, maybe this weekend, and want to check my boxes before I get started.

I've got a probiotic with several strains of Lacto, several of Bifidobacterium, and Streptococcus Thermophilus, 32 billion cells per capsule. Will the Bifido and Strep do anything in a co-pitched sour? If so, will it be something I want them to do? Is this probiotic likely to offer much souring in the 65-75 range if Plantarum - the all-star of room temp souring - is only a small part of its contents?

How much should I start with if I do a starter for these probiotics? Will 32 billion cells be enough to seed a single step starter in the 750mL range (following the Aeschlimann method from MTF - no stirplate) or should I use more than one cap?

Alternately, I've got a 4g pitch of dry L. Plantarum that's going in one half of this 10g batch. If the probiotic capsules aren't likely to sour well at reasonable yeast fermentation temps, I'll make a starter of this and pitch it in both batches, though splitting the batch across two cultures seems more fun. If I use the dry Plantarum in both batches, would I be better off with just a single 750 mL starter (that's basically my size limit) or splitting the packet across two such starters?

Typically, I boil my kettle sours for a couple minutes, and this is when I would add my coriander and salt (and osmanthus flowers cuz I love em). I've never done a no-boil beer, but what would be the effects of just bringing this up to 180 for a few minutes and tossing in the coriander, salt, and flowers then? I'm trying to make this a super fast brewday so saving ten minutes of ramping up and chilling would be a value-added proposition. The grainbill is split evenly across domestic Chinese 2-row and flaked wheat, and I've never noticed DMS from this grain.

Next question: I'll want 5-10 IBUs in the finished beer, but co-pitching with lacto means I don't want to hop it until after it's fermented. I've never used a hop tea for bittering - does anyone have a reliable method for adding a certain amount of bitterness to a brew with a hop tea? Is it as simple as boiling water with enough hops and assuming that the hop tea is saturated around 100 IBUs and then dosing the beer accordingly?

And... I think I had another question or two, but nothing else is coming to me at the moment. I'll ask those if they come to me, and if not, this should be enough to get me off to the races.

 

[FatDragon]

Here's the full list of bugs in my probiotic, by the way.

 

[shortyz]

buy a better product man, that stuff is full of all sorts of weird stuff.

 

[FatDragon]

buy a better product man, that stuff is full of all sorts of weird stuff.

Well, it is a probiotic supplement designed to replenish gut bacteria, not a pure-pitch brewing product. I got it on a run to Hong Kong, which pretty much everyone here in China agrees is way better than buying stuff like medicine and supplements (and tons of other stuff) in China where it could be anything.

My question is not "is this a well-designed brewing product", but "will it make a decent quick sour beer?"

That said, the Strep looks like it might be a red flag. http://www.milkthefunk.com/wiki/Isovaleric_Acid

I'm interested in the idea because I like pitching multiple strains of lacto for souring on the premise that it will give me a less one-dimensional souring component in the final beer. Since I've got reason to be suspicious that the Streptococcus might lead the Lacto to produce rancid cheese off-flavors, I'll probably just shunt a few liters of wort into a water jug for an experimental side-batch, and if it turns out well I'll use it for my next full-size sour batch.

 

[RPh_Guy]

Will the Bifido and Strep do anything in a co-pitched sour?

No. The other genera are not a problem at all.

Is this probiotic likely to offer much souring in the 65-75 range if Plantarum - the all-star of room temp souring - is only a small part of its contents?

Yes. L. plantarum is perfectly capable of growing.

How much should I start with if I do a starter for these probiotics? Will 32 billion cells be enough to seed a single step starter in the 750mL range (following the Aeschlimann method from MTF - no stirplate) or should I use more than one cap?

The main thing is that you need to make sure the Lacto is alive. Like other cultures, Lacto needs to be stored refrigerated because it loses viability over time.

For 5 gallons of gose I would recommend a 500mL starter 3-7 days before brewing.
40g DME
10g dextrose
5g calcium carbonate
1g yeast nutrient
1 probiotic capsule contents

You will be able to verify the culture is alive by how it smells, and there may be some light bubbling.
Decant the culture into your batch, leaving the calcium carbonate layer in the flask.

Typically, I boil my kettle sours for a couple minutes, and this is when I would add my coriander and salt (and osmanthus flowers cuz I love em). I've never done a no-boil beer, but what would be the effects of just bringing this up to 180 for a few minutes and tossing in the coriander, salt, and flowers then? I'm trying to make this a super fast brewday so saving ten minutes of ramping up and chilling would be a value-added proposition. The grainbill is split evenly across domestic Chinese 2-row and flaked wheat, and I've never noticed DMS from this grain.

My suggestion:
Chill after mashing (don't bring the wort above 170°F).
Add the spices by making a small tea (e.g. boil in about 500-1000mL for 5-10 minutes)

Next question: I'll want 5-10 IBUs in the finished beer, but co-pitching with lacto means I don't want to hop it until after it's fermented. I've never used a hop tea for bittering - does anyone have a reliable method for adding a certain amount of bitterness to a brew with a hop tea? Is it as simple as boiling water with enough hops and assuming that the hop tea is saturated around 100 IBUs and then dosing the beer accordingly?

Yes.
For example 0.5 oz of 3.5% AA hops boiled in 0.5 gal for 45 minutes and added to 4.5 gal = 10 IBU in 5 gal.

You may consider dry hopping instead (especially if you want hop flavor/aroma). Dry hops add some bitterness.

You may also consider skipping the hops entirely. Taste the beer before you decide it needs bitterness. It probably won't.

Definitely wait until it's finished souring before adding hops.

Cheers

 

[FatDragon]

No. The other genera are not a problem at all.

Yes. L. plantarum is perfectly capable of growing.

The main thing is that you need to make sure the Lacto is alive. Like other cultures, Lacto needs to be stored refrigerated because it loses viability over time.

For 5 gallons of gose I would recommend a 500mL starter 3-7 days before brewing.
40g DME
10g dextrose
5g calcium carbonate
1g yeast nutrient
1 probiotic capsule contents

You will be able to verify the culture is alive by how it smells, and there may be some light bubbling.
Decant the culture into your batch, leaving the calcium carbonate layer in the flask.


My suggestion:
Chill after mashing (don't bring the wort above 170°F).
Add the spices by making a small tea (e.g. boil in about 500-1000mL for 5-10 minutes)

Yes.
For example 0.5 oz of 3.5% AA hops boiled in 0.5 gal for 45 minutes and added to 5 gal = 10 IBU.

You may consider dry hopping instead (especially if you want hop flavor/aroma). Dry hops add some bitterness.

You may also consider skipping the hops entirely. Taste the beer before you decide it needs bitterness. It probably won't.

Definitely wait until it's finished souring before adding hops.

Cheers

Many thanks on all counts. A couple further questions:

Will the other bugs be likely to add anything to the brew at ale temps or would I be better off just using pure Plantarum?

Any particular reason I should go no-boil other than saving time? You specifically noted not to go over 170; is there a particular reason to stay under this threshold? I've read a little bit about no-boil but not a ton, and I've not done it so I'm naturally a little skeptical about it.

Any knowledge of the Isovaleric acid thing with strep and lacto in the same wort?

 

[RPh_Guy]

Will the other bugs be likely to add anything to the brew at ale temps or would I be better off just using pure Plantarum?

In the 65-75°F range, the other species will likely have minimal contribution.
Still, you may find the blend adds some beneficial complexity, and the split batch is a great way to make that determination.

I use a similar mixed probiotic as my house source of Lacto. It tends to give more funk at higher temperature and more clean sourness at lower temperature.

Yeast produce much better flavor than bacteria in my opinion, so I try to enhance that. In sour beer I accomplish this by selecting a flavorful yeast strain and then pitching bacteria after the yeast have had a chance to start fermenting (about 2 days after pitching WLP644 Sacc Trois, for example). Acidity mutes yeast expression.
With this process I don't need to "make" a Lacto starter; I use wort from the batch (before pitching yeast) with a little calcium carbonate and one probiotic capsule.

Any particular reason I should go no-boil other than saving time?

Boiling doesn't really serve much purpose since you don't need to further pasteurize the wort or isomerize alpha acids.

Staying under 170°F is a cautionary measure to avoid DMS production.

Any knowledge of the Isovaleric acid thing with strep and lacto in the same wort?

There's no reason to worry about the Strep producing isovaleric acid. Read the MTF article you linked. It doesn't occur in beer.

S. thermophilus has its limitation right in its name (heat-loving). Optimal growth is above 95°F.
If you go to the cited article about S. thermophilus producing isolvaleric acid, you'll see they incubated at 108°F.

A trace amount of isovaleric acid from the Lacto is actually part of what contributes to the "complexity".
It'll be fine. No worries.

 

[FatDragon]

In the 65-75°F range, the other species will likely have minimal contribution.
Still, you may find the blend adds some beneficial complexity, and the split batch is a great way to make that determination.

I use a similar mixed probiotic as my house source of Lacto. It tends to give more funk at higher temperature and more clean sourness at lower temperature.

Yeast produce much better flavor than bacteria in my opinion, so I try to enhance that. In sour beer I accomplish this by selecting a flavorful yeast strain and then pitching bacteria after the yeast have had a chance to start fermenting (about 2 days after pitching WLP644 Sacc Trois, for example). Acidity mutes yeast expression.
With this process I don't need to "make" a Lacto starter; I use wort from the batch (before pitching yeast) with a little calcium carbonate and one probiotic capsule.

Boiling doesn't really serve much purpose since you don't need to further pasteurize the wort or isomerize alpha acids.

Staying under 170°F is a cautionary measure to avoid DMS production.


There's no reason to worry about the Strep producing isovaleric acid. Read the MTF article you linked. It doesn't occur in beer.

S. thermophilus has its limitation right in its name (heat-loving). Optimal growth is above 95°F.
If you go to the cited article about S. thermophilus producing isolvaleric acid, you'll see they incubated at 108°F.

A trace amount of isovaleric acid from the Lacto is actually part of what contributes to the "complexity".
It'll be fine. No worries.

Thanks. The table that showed Isovaleric acid approaching the tasting threshold in a copitch of lacto and sacc was worrisome and I wondered if adding strep thermophilus might push it over the edge, but I'll trust your experience on this.

I appreciate the advice on the bacterial starter with wort from the batch itself. Although I'm using US-05 and not expecting much yeast character, letting the yeast go for the first couple days could make it easier to bump up the temp for souring and let more of the strains in the probiotic do their thing.

You've made the no-boil suggestion clear enough that I'll probably give it a go as well.

I'm going to try to brew this so quickly (after the family's bedtime) that I've got beer fermenting before the wife even knows I brewed, the theory being if I can brew it without her knowing, it doesn't impact family time so she won't mind it so much. If I'm wrong, well, we've got a comfortable couch. Worst case scenario, she takes the Chinese idiom "kneel on a durian" literally, in which case I'll have bloody knees and delicious fruit. Wish me luck.

 

[RPh_Guy]

The table that showed Isovaleric acid approaching the tasting threshold in a copitch of lacto and sacc was worrisome and I wondered if adding strep thermophilus might push it over the edge, but I'll trust your experience on this.

Your thinking is good ... However keep in mind they tested L. amylovorus. I wouldn't extrapolate those exact values to any other species of bacteria... L. plantarum is generally more clean than other species.

Think of it like comparing different Sacc strains. A German weizen strain, English strain, lager strain, champagne strain, Belgian strain, and bread strain all have different flavor characteristics, even within the cerevisiae species.

I appreciate the advice on the bacterial starter with wort from the batch itself. Although I'm using US-05 and not expecting much yeast character, letting the yeast go for the first couple days could make it easier to bump up the temp for souring and let more of the strains in the probiotic do their thing.

Either way works
The only thing in this case is that I'd want to make sure your Lacto is alive and the probiotic isn't contaminated with something nasty. I'd lean toward making a starter before you brew the wort so there are no surprises the first time you use it. You can still pitch the starter whenever you like.

You've made the no-boil suggestion clear enough that I'll probably give it a go as well.

Don't forget to adjust your recipe for the decreased brewhouse efficiency from the lack of boiling. Assuming you're using a program, you can use your normal equipment profile settings, but just consider your pre-boil gravity as your target OG.

I'm going to try to brew this so quickly (after the family's bedtime) that I've got beer fermenting before the wife even knows I brewed, the theory being if I can brew it without her knowing, it doesn't impact family time so she won't mind it so much. If I'm wrong, well, we've got a comfortable couch. Worst case scenario, she takes the Chinese idiom "kneel on a durian" literally, in which case I'll have bloody knees and delicious fruit. Wish me luck.

Haha. Good luck!

 

[shortyz]

rph, whats your reasoning behind not boiling wort before adding lacto?

to me this seems like your relying on bugs in the grain to do the souring, thus not really controlling overall flavor.

 

[FatDragon]

rph, whats your reasoning behind not boiling wort before adding lacto?

to me this seems like your relying on bugs in the grain to do the souring, thus not really controlling overall flavor.

I think I've got this:

Mash temps already pasteurize the wort, so no worries about bugs from there.

Keeping under 170 F prevents DMS formation. If you don't let it form, you don't have to boil it off.

No hops to isomerize.

Saves time, which is part of my goal with this brew.

 

[RPh_Guy]

rph, whats your reasoning behind not boiling wort before adding lacto?

to me this seems like your relying on bugs in the grain to do the souring, thus not really controlling overall flavor.

For pre-souring methods, I do recommend boiling. However, even for that method it is not completely necessary; proper sanitation and pre-acidification are quite effective for reducing risk of contamination.

The co-souring and post-souring methods we're discussing have far less risk of contamination compared to pre-souring.
First, keep in mind that mash temp is great for pasteurization. 60 minutes at 150°F is >380 Pasteurization Units; that's over 10x what's needed for short-term preservation.
Almost no wild microbes survive into your fermenter.

Any remaining microbes that survived or were picked up from the air or equipment are inhibited because:
1. The active yeast fermentation produces a low-pH, low-nutrient, alcoholic, and anaerobic environment. Pre-souring doesn't have the benefit of any of this besides low pH if you pre-acidify.
2. The low temperature (relative to pre-souring) inhibits any will microbes that survived. Wild bacteria prefer much higher temperature for growth.

The Lacto we pitch has the benefit of a much higher cell count, it's tolerant of anaerobic, alcoholic, and low-pH conditions, and it's working within its ideal temperature range.

Experience tells us that this process is effective, and there's no need to worry about contamination besides following standard sanitation practices.

Hope this all makes sense. Cheers

 

[cactusgarrett]

Man, you guys are stoking a lot of creative juices for me. A buddy and I plan on doing a gose in a 25gal oak barrel, and because I've only ever done the traditional kettle souring method, these concepts are totally helping me hash out some top-level concepts regarding souring in the barrel, no boil, how to add IBU, etc. Thanks!

 

[FatDragon]

Looks like I'm going to go the gallon route with the probiotic capsules. I used one cap in a lacto fermented hot sauce that's been sluggish. I originally used yakult probiotic yogurt drink - L. Casei Shirota I believe - which I've used as a lacto culture in hot sauce before, but it's been slow to develop and never built a pellicle as my previous batches did (aggressively). A day after adding the probiotic, the batch is tremendously funky, and I'd say cheesy is a significant part of that.

I'm going to drop my batch size to 26 liters or so, which will significantly speed up the brew day, and do one 25 liter fermenter with Plantarum and one 5 liter jug with the probiotic. Given this anecdotal evidence, I'd rather not risk an entire 20 liter batch, and I can always use the bugs again in a full size batch if the mini batch turns out well.

 

[RPh_Guy]

FYI Lacto doesn't generally form a pellicle, or show any visible signs of fermentation, besides turbidity. (Except when fermenting milk -> yogurt)

Small batch testing or at least a starter is always a good idea for unknown microbes in my opinion.

 

[FatDragon]

FYI Lacto doesn't generally form a pellicle, or show any visible signs of fermentation, besides turbidity. (Except when fermenting milk -> yogurt)

Small batch testing or at least a starter is always a good idea for unknown microbes in my opinion.

The pellicles may have been caused by other microbes that rode in on the peppers or garlic in the past, and there were clear signs of CO2 (bubbles in the pepper mash) in those other sauce ferments along with the white pellicles they grew. This time I used peppers that had been hanging out in the freezer for a year, so any microbes they brought along might have been pretty sluggish. The flavor development over 3-4 weeks of fermenting has been apparent, but pretty slow, so I thought it would be fun to try the probiotic. Worst case scenario is wasting about a pound of peppers since it's a small ferment. I actually think the funk could potentially work in a hot sauce, but if it develops the same aromas in a beer it's probably going to be a dumper - it's really in-your-face - so small batch it is.

 

[FatDragon]

I really need to get a copy of the Water book and read it. Chemistry was the only subject in school that I completely failed to grasp, so I'm just using calculators and hoping for the best with my water profile these days...

I've asked this question before, but either never gotten a clear answer or, more likely, never wrapped my head around it well enough to put into practice and remember:

I'll be doing a partial volume mash and topping off with cold RO water. I've picked the Yellow Dry profile from Beersmith as my target profile, but I'll change if I get good advice in the meantime.

Should I...

A) ...add salts to my mash water to reach the target profile and do nothing with the top-off?
B) ...add salts to my total volume to reach the target profile so my top-off water is treated just like my mash water?
C) ...calculate the salts to bring my total volume to the target profile and then add them all to the mash water?
or
D) ...none of the above?

For what it's worth, I typically do B) with a batch sparge in a nestled bucket setup - mash, sparge, and top-off water all treated to the same profile and only the mash water acidified if anything (though I don't have a pH meter so that's a crapshoot anyway).

 

[RPh_Guy]

I agree B is best, with one exception: Acid/base (for achieving proper mash pH) should only be added to the strike water.

What sort of minerals are you targeting? I don't have beersmith; I use bru'n water.
I'd suggest something like this: 100ppm of calcium (from CaSO4 & CaCl2), 100ppm of sulfate (from CaSO4), and however much NaCl from your desired amount of salt.

Hope this helps

 

[FatDragon]

We're in the books!

Introducing: Floored Malt Gose!

A couple days ago, since it's warming up and getting more humid at the same time, I decided to vacuum seal my big sack of malt. Long story short, I dropped about 3kg on the ground and had to sweep it up. That became the base malt for this brew. It may not be floor malted pils, but it's floored malt, which is almost as authentic, I'm sure.

2.87 kg low potential Australian feed grade barley imported to China and malted domestically (i.e. my base malt. I like to call it 'wizard malt' because it's from Oz)
2.4 kg flaked wheat

29L RO water with 6g gypsum, 4g CaCl, and 1g chalk.

I ground .4 kg of the wheat with my base malt and boiled the other 2kg for about ten minutes before mashing to help with extraction (the flakes were pretty thick).

Mash in 18 L at 66 C for about 90 minutes while giving the kids their baths and reading bedtime stories.

I typically sparge in a nested buckets setup but I used the full hot-side volume because of thickness and the high amount of flaked wheat, so instead I lautered the entire volume of the wort through the grain bag.

While that was going on, I took a liter and boiled it for a minute, then chilled it quickly. Took a bit as a hydro sample and diluted the rest by half to be used in a vitality starter and two bacteria starters.

Then I boiled another liter of wort for five minutes with 20g crushed coriander, 18g frozen hand picked osmanthus flowers, and 15g Himalayan pink salt. Strained that into the kettle, have the bag a last squeeze or two, and started heating the wort up to 75 C for a five minute pasteurization rest...

... Or maybe more like 83 C. Took my eye off the kettle for a bit too long. I got the chiller pumping right away though, so if I touched into the DMS forming temps, it was only for a moment or two.

Chilled down to 30 C pretty quickly, topped off with 10 L chilled water, then siphoned into one 5L jug and one 25L fermenter for a total of maybe 24L between the two. Pitched yeast and set the chamber to 17.6 C and now we wait a couple days before adding the bugs...

 

[RPh_Guy]

Very cool.

FYI calcium carbonate isn't useful for brewing water. It's pretty insoluble. You also generally don't need to increase alkalinity for a pale mash.

Cheers

 

[FatDragon]

Very cool.

FYI calcium carbonate isn't useful for brewing water. It's pretty insoluble. You also generally don't need to increase alkalinity for a pale mash.

Cheers

Brain farts... I knew this, and yet I did it anyway because sometimes my brain decides to keep me humble by doing less-than-brilliant things like this.

 

[FatDragon]

I took a sample and reading of the small probiotic batch last night. Gravity is down in the 1.2-1.5 plato range, which puts my ABV around 4.5-4.7% with an OG just over 10 plato. It's only mildly sour right now - definitely needs at least a couple more weeks with the bacteria. It's not got any notable off flavors, which is a good sign. The beer is super light in color - I've never made a beer this light. I might test the bigger fermenter tonight to see if the pure plantarum pitch is working faster.

 

[shetc]

I really need to get a copy of the Water book and read it. Chemistry was the only subject in school that I completely failed to grasp

Good luck - you need a chemistry degree to understand that book [emoji1]

 

[shortyz]

i just did a batch with swanson's plantarum caps. mashed, boiled, threw 6 pills in, and held at 80f. after 48 hours i was at 3.3 ph!

for anyone wanting to use wyeast lacto's DONT, every one is contaminated with yeast! (unless your making like 1% beer)

swansons gets the thumbs up. your wort should look like wort after souring no scum or bubbling.

 

[FatDragon]

I think I need a repitch of my lacto. Both batches are only slightly sour after 2 weeks...

 

[shortyz]

2 weeks! lol wtf

 

[FatDragon]

2 weeks! lol wtf

These are co pitched with yeast rather than kettle soured. I'm going to give them a couple more weeks and if that doesn't do it, I'll probably just dose with lactic acid to my desired sourness and call it a day.

 

[FatDragon]

Both batches look like this and there's some distinct acetone smell in the ferm chamber. Time to water the garden?

Sigh...

 

[cactusgarrett]

Looks like mold to me. Acetone/solvent smell is never good with a sour.

 

[RPh_Guy]

Both batches look like this and there's some distinct acetone smell in the ferm chamber. Time to water the garden?

Sigh...

Up close, is it fuzzy/hairy?

 

[FatDragon]

It's not fuzzy or hairy. It looks more like a pellicle than mold to me, but I guess it could be non-fuzzy mold? I'm skeptical that mold could be growing on the surface of a beer that's over 4% alcohol. What's the minimum ABV to stave off mold?

When I inserted a straw into the fermenter, chunks of the pellicle stuck to the straw like little cottage cheese curds, if that helps identify it.

Either way, acetone... Is it worth tasting at this point, or even safe to do so?

 

[RPh_Guy]

The photo could go either way but if it's not fuzzy like mold, it's not mold. If it's not mold, it's safe to taste.

Acetone smell (actually ethyl acetate) won't go away with time. Pichia, Brett, and other wild microbes produce it when there's too much oxygen exposure.
Like vinegar, it's always a risk with wild fermentations. The last bottle of Petrus Aged Pale I bought tasted like nail polish remover

Bummer.

 

[deeve007]

These are co pitched with yeast rather than kettle soured. I'm going to give them a couple more weeks and if that doesn't do it, I'll probably just dose with lactic acid to my desired sourness and call it a day.

@FatDragon I had a similar response on the "Milk The Funk" group re fermenting for just a couple of weeks with co-pitching, so not sure if they simply don't understand co-pitching versus kettle souring, or if I've got incorrect advice.

How long did you leave it in the fermenter in total before bottling, and how did it turn out in the end?

 

[RPh_Guy]

I co-sour and post-sour lots of beer with L. plantarum. They sour over a few days.

For example I recently co-pitched bacteria and US-05 in a gose and let it ferment at 66-68°F (19-20°C). It was sour and done fermenting after 5 days so I added hop tea and bottled. The beer was fantastic.

 

[deeve007]

So it seems as with so many things brewing, there is more than one way to brew a sour...

 

[RPh_Guy]

Souring methods!

LAB fast sours:

• Sour mash, where the mash is soured instead of the wort.
• Pre-souring and then killing the bacteria (Kettle sour), with or without pre-boil.
• Pre-souring without killing the bacteria, with or without pre-boil.
• Co-souring (pitch Lacto and yeast at the same time)
• Post-souring (pitch yeast first and then Lacto after a day or more)

Cheater fast sours:

• Directly add lactic acid or other acid.
• Use an absurd amount of acidulated malt or other acidic substance.

Other fast sour:

• Use a yeast that produced lactic acid (Lactic acid yeast)

Sours with Brett:

• Everything co-pitched (traditional method).
• Brett & bacteria pitched after primary.
• Brett delayed pitched into any of the fast sour methods above.
• Co-pitch Sacc and Brett, delay pitch the bacteria (post-sour with Brett).
• Brett-only fast sour (no Sacc) with any of the fast sour methods above.

.... Think I covered everything.

 

[deeve007]

• Co-souring (pitch Lacto and yeast at the same time)
• Post-souring (pitch yeast first and then Lacto after a day or more)

What would be the difference flavour/sour wise with these two? And any other differences with regards to the rest of the process?

 

[cactusgarrett]

We should just lobby to have RPh make a stickied post, since i'm pretty sure he touts this daily.

 

[RPh_Guy]

Acidity mutes yeast expression.
Therefore post-souring increases the yeast expression.

For example when I want to use a flavorful yeast like kveik or WLP644 (an excellent choice by the way), I use a post-sour process:
Use some chilled wort from the batch to make a Lacto starter.
Pitch the yeast, let it ferment for 1-2 days
Add the bacteria.

It still sours before fermentation finishes and the yeast produced all of its esters before the pH dropped.

We should just lobby to have RPh make a stickied post, since i'm pretty sure he touts this daily.

Haha, perhaps. I don't mind helping on an individual basis, but maybe that could help too.

 

[deeve007]

We should just lobby to have RPh make a stickied post, since i'm pretty sure he touts this daily.

I would LOVE a sour sticky with some of this core info in it, especially when you have people from "other" forums saying otherwise, just point them to the one location, "There ya go..."