Ph in extract brewing

[BaylessBrewer]

I've been a all grain Brewer for a little over a year now and I understand the basics of water chemistry and its effects on the mash and final product BUT what I don't understand is the effects of the ph of your brewing water for extract batches.
I'm in a pinch for time due to a hectic 6 day work week and young kids at home so I plan on brewing a extract batch this Sunday while they nap.
Does the starting water profile and ph effect the finished ph? I live in St.louis Mo and we have good brewing water but a high ph of 9.3. Should I add a buffer to the water to bring the ph down prior to using it? I want to produce something drinkable and not just mediocre.

 

[GrogNerd]

it is my understanding that all water modifications and mineral additions have already been accounted for in creating the extract and you're much better off using bottled water

not sure if you can use distilled (pretty sure it's OK), but I use the 5 gallon water system from Wally World

 

[BaylessBrewer]

it is my understanding that all water modifications and mineral additions have already been accounted for in creating the extract and you're much better off using bottled water

not sure if you can use distilled (pretty sure it's OK), but I use the 5 gallon water system from Wally World

That's the part that's confusing to me. I don't see how the extract buffers the alkalinity of the water I'm using. Normally I have to use some phosphoric acid in the mash to get the ph down to 5.2-5.4 and I add some to sparge water to lower it to the same range.
Will 6lbs of DME lower the ph to the range we look for when all grain brewing? Could this be the cause of extract "twang"? I don't plan on adding any salts to the water but I'm not opposed to adding acid to lower ph if needed

 

[Gavin C]

That's the part that's confusing to me. I don't see how the extract buffers the alkalinity of the water I'm using. Normally I have to use some phosphoric acid in the mash to get the ph down to 5.2-5.4 and I add some to sparge water to lower it to the same range.
Will 6lbs of DME lower the ph to the range we look for when all grain brewing? Could this be the cause of extract "twang"? I don't plan on adding any salts to the water but I'm not opposed to adding acid to lower ph if needed

With extract, the mash, sparge, mineral additions, pH modifications etc have all been done and the wort concentrated to LME or DME. The only thing that 's been removed is H2O.

In your brewery you need to add back the H20 and sanitize the malt extract. (A 1 minute boil with the correct volume of water). This is why RO or more expensive distilled water is a good idea. It avoids adding any unknown quantities of minerals. There is no need for any buffering or other mash related chemistry as that's already taken place. You may still decide to add minerals for flavor reasons based on your experience with a given extract/malt house. But mash chemistry is not in play.

If hops are involved the boil is extended beyond 1 minute to allow isomerization of the hops.

 

[GrogNerd]

guess I didn't finish my thought...

I use the 5 gallon water system from Wally World for both AG & extract brewing. if I'm doing AG and brewing a lower SRM beer, I'll add some acid malt, for higher SRM beers, I don't

definitely don't when doing extract brews; it's not necessary.

I don't use tap water in either case, especially wouldn't use it for extract batches. the last brew I did with my tap water I named, "Feet & A$$ Mild." that saying "if it's good to drink, it's good for brew" is NOT TRUE. I can drink my water from the tap, but if I use it for coffee or lemonade or any other mix, it tastes like.... well, feet & a$$

hopefully we'll hear from Martin or AJ on the subject

 

[ajdelange]

It is true that the manufacturer of the extract has the responsibility for insuring that the mash pH is correct. But you are going to use his fermentables to prepare a wort and it is your responsibility to see to it that the pH of the wort you make is suitable for yeast (5.0 - 5.2). The mixture of extract and water is like any other. The acids in the extract will be neutralized by the alkali in the water. If the water is highly alkaline it is going to pull mash pH up. Furthermore, you are not going to get the benefit of pH reduction from wort boiling because the extract manufacturer has already taken that. Thus it is important that the water you use to make extract based beer not be too alkaline. Note that the pH itself is not that important. Even with extract brewing it is probably a good idea to add enough acid to the brewing water to bring its pH to around 5.5 or so.

Note that if you present the yeast with a relatively alkaline wort they will do what they can to remedy the situation i.e. create acid but you don't want them working on acid production. You want them working on alcohol and flavor production. I don't suppose it's likely that an extract brewer would have a pH meter but if he does he should check wort pH and adjust it if too high.

Also, with respect to mineral additions by the syrup manufacturer: you have no idea what he has done. Has he loaded his mash up with gypsum to adjust its pH or has he done that with hydrochloric or phosphoric acid? An extract brewer should, because of this, do the same experiments with tasting his finished beer with and without chloride and sulfate salt additions to see if they improve it.

 

[BaylessBrewer]

I understand that all the mineral and ph adjustments have been made in the factory that makes the DME but does that DME contain the acid to buffer the the water of which its added to?
I feel like I'm over thinking this but having never brewed a extract batch I just wonder.
Edit: typed this while you were typing AJ. Disregard

 

[BaylessBrewer]

It is true that the manufacturer of the extract has the responsibility for insuring that the mash pH is correct. But you are going to use his fermentables to prepare a wort and it is your responsibility to see to it that the pH of the wort you make is suitable for yeast (5.0 - 5.2). The mixture of extract and water is like any other. The acids in the extract will be neutralized by the alkali in the water. If the water is highly alkaline it is going to pull mash pH up. Furthermore, you are not going to get the benefit of pH reduction from wort boiling because the extract manufacturer has already taken that. Thus it is important that the water you use to make extract based beer not be too alkaline. Note that the pH itself is not that important. Even with extract brewing it is probably a good idea to add enough acid to the brewing water to bring its pH to around 5.5 or so.

Note that if you present the yeast with a relatively alkaline wort they will do what they can to remedy the situation i.e. create acid but you don't want them working on acid production. You want them working on alcohol and flavor production. I don't suppose it's likely that an extract brewer would have a pH meter but if he does he should check wort pH and adjust it if too high.

Also, with respect to mineral additions by the syrup manufacturer: you have no idea what he has done. Has he loaded his mash up with gypsum to adjust its pH or has he done that with hydrochloric or phosphoric acid? An extract brewer should, because of this, do the same experiments with tasting his finished beer with and without chloride and sulfate salt additions to see if they improve it.

Thank you! This is the answer I was looking for. I'll use a water calculator to predict water ph and how much acid to add prior to using it and then check it prob to use.

 

[GrogNerd]

told you he would clear things up

thanks, AJ

the Wort Hogs say, "HI!"

 

[mabrungard]

While RO or distilled water are best for rehydrating extract, it is still possible to use tap water as long as precautions are taken. Number one is to remove chlorine compounds so that you don't produce chlorophenols. The second thing is to make sure that the alkalinity of the tap water isn't high. High alkalinity will drive up the pH of wort and that will affect the resulting beer flavor. The third thing is to make sure that your tap water doesn't have too much mineralization to fit the style of beer you're brewing.

 

[BaylessBrewer]

While RO or distilled water are best for rehydrating extract, it is still possible to use tap water as long as precautions are taken. Number one is to remove chlorine compounds so that you don't produce chlorophenols. The second thing is to make sure that the alkalinity of the tap water isn't high. High alkalinity will drive up the pH of wort and that will affect the resulting beer flavor. The third thing is to make sure that your tap water doesn't have too much mineralization to fit the style of beer you're brewing.

I treat my tap water with Campden and have used it for all grain brewing since the beginning with no problems. Based on previous batches brewed taking into consideration the grist I usually end up adding between 0 and 1.5ml of 75% phosphoric acid to bring down ph to 5.2-5.4