What is best to use for lowering pH in extract brewing?

[Art2019]

I found my extract ph is 7.3 & read I'll get a better flavorful brew at a ph of 5 or less. What do you all use to lower ph? I'm seeing epson salts, calcium, citrus, calcium cloride, etc.
Is there something I'm able to get at a grocery store for lowering ph? I'm not sure about epson salt since I think it may add a salt flavor to my brew. I'm ready to keg my current batch befor starting a new & want to try to lower ph. I'm using RO currently.

 

[mac_1103]

How and when are you measuring pH? It seems pretty strange to me that your pH would be that high brewing extract with RO water. Extract is just concentrated (LME) or dehydrated (DME) mash. When you reconstitute it with pure water the pH should be whatever pH that the manufacturer mashed at.

 

[BrewnWKopperKat]

I'm ready to keg my current batch before starting a new & want to try to lower ph.

So you want to lower the pH of a beer that has finished fermenting but has not been packaged?

IIRC, pH adjustments at this point (before packaging) are generally done with an acid.

Brewing salts (epson salts, calcium sulfate, calcium chloride, ...) will also add Na, S04, & Cl to the fermented beer - which may change the flavor profile in unexpected ways.

 

[Bobby_M]

It is generally recommended to not add exogenous water ions when you don't already know what that ionic concentration is. It can yield unintended results. On the contrary, you may have some levels that could use some reduction. If you're only focusing on lower pH, add lactic or phosphoric acid. If you want to experiment with local stuff, a few drops of lemon juice will be a proof of concept.

 

[Art2019]

So you want to lower the pH of a beer that has finished fermenting but has not been packaged?

IIRC, pH adjustments at this point (before packaging) are generally done with an acid.

Brewing salts (epson salts, calcium sulfate, calcium chloride, ...) will also add Na, S04, & Cl to the fermented beer - which may change the flavor profile in unexpected ways.

No. Said on my next batch I start i wanted to make sure ph is lower, not wanting to lower on an already finished batch.

 

[Art2019]

How and when are you measuring pH? It seems pretty strange to me that your pH would be that high brewing extract with RO water. Extract is just concentrated (LME) or dehydrated (DME) mash. When you reconstitute it with pure water the pH should be whatever pH that the manufacturer mashed at.

My RO ph is 7.3 before brewing. So, maybe I should check ph before pitching on next batch.

 

[Art2019]

It is generally recommended to not add exogenous water ions when you don't already know what that ionic concentration is. It can yield unintended results. On the contrary, you may have some levels that could use some reduction. If you're only focusing on lower pH, add lactic or phosphoric acid. If you want to experiment with local stuff, a few drops of lemon juice will be a proof of concept.

Tried lemon juice in a glass. It took more than a drop go lower it substantislly.

 

[BrewnWKopperKat]

I'm using RO currently.

pH of RO water does not matter.

Said on my next batch I start i wanted to make sure ph is lower

Lower the ph of the wort/beer at what point in the brewing process?

 

[Art2019]

pH of RO water does not matter.


Lower the ph of the wort/beer at what point in the brewing process?

Prior to pitching yeast.
Am I being unclear on my question? I don't know, but when should water be tested prior to fermentation? Maybe some can let me understand what they do?

 

[mac_1103]

I don't know, but when should water be tested prior to fermentation? Maybe some can let me understand what they do?

As mentioned, the pH of the water is not what's important. RO water has almost no buffering capacity so whatever pH it starts at will have almost no effect on the pH of the wort you make with extract. The composition of the extract will determine the pH of the wort, so there really isn't much point to worrying about the pH of your water when brewing extract.

The pH of the mash is very important, but extract has already been mashed at whatever pH the manufacturers chose so you can't do anything about that. The pH of the wort does matter, but frankly I suspect that most extract brewers don't even think about it. If you're going to do anything with pH, I would suggest testing at the start of the boil (once all of the extract is dissolved and well mixed) and again at the end of the boil. I'm not an expert on this stuff by any means, but my guess is that your pre-boil pH will be in the 5.2 to 5.6 range (depending on the style) and it will drop a couple of tenths after the boil. Frankly, I wouldn't mess with it unless it was very far from those numbers, but others may have different opinions.

 

[BrewnWKopperKat]

eta: posted at the exact time time as #10 (above).

Am I being unclear on my question?

Just trying to clarify what is being measured. We started with "I found my extract ph is 7.3" and then went to "My RO ph is 7.3 before brewing".

read I'll get a better flavorful brew at a ph of 5 or less

... and ...

I don't know, but when should water be tested prior to fermentation?

The topics I have read on various forums and the articles I have skimmed (CB&B, BYO, ...) tend to make pH adjustments to the beer before packaging or the wort before adding yeast.

 

[user 246304]

Unclear actually why he'd be much concerned about pH when using extract, since it's already converted. Unless it's just a taste thing, in which case I'd wonder about sensory threshold anyway.

whoops: missed @mac_1103 's last post. Last paragraph, basically my thought as well. I can't imagine it's much you need to worry about.

 

[Bobby_M]

The reason why the question is muddy is that you said your extract pH is 7.3. Then you clarified that you measured your RO source water to be 7.3 which is a completely different thing. Couple that with the fact that most people don't get involved with pH at any point during extract brewing and there you go. The longer you are willing to play along with the clarifying questions without getting frustrated, the more accurate and useful of a discussion will be had.

When you brew with extract and RO water, the pH is going to change during the boil depending on the acidity contribution of steeping grains and the malt extract itself (completely unrelated to the measured pH of the RO water, which as mentioned does not matter). If you want to see where that pH lands, you can take a sample out after all the extract has been well mixed in, but make sure you chill it down to room temp first. You can also measure and record it at the end of the boil but it's unlikely that it will require any adjustment unless you want to acidify prior to dry hopping which is pretty common and beneficial.

 

[BrewnWKopperKat]

eta: is the (hidden) topic post-fermentation pH adjustments when brewing with 'extract'?

read I'll get a better flavorful brew at a ph of 5 or less

If you are willing to provide a recipe (including specific brands of DME/LME) and process description (including where pH is being measured and what the desired pH range is), there's probably more that can be discussed.

Generally, 'wort is wort' (all-grain, DME, LME), but mineral content of the wort (going into the fermenter) is also a consideration.

 

[jrgtr42]

How and when are you measuring pH? It seems pretty strange to me that your pH would be that high brewing extract with RO water. Extract is just concentrated (LME) or dehydrated (DME) mash. When you reconstitute it with pure water the pH should be whatever pH that the manufacturer mashed at.

The Ph of my water is still massively basic - off the scale high on my normal testing. RO doesn’t affect that part of the water.
However, it only takes a few drops of lactic acid to bring it down than the ounce or more before I got the RO machine.
To the OP: like others said, the ph shouldn’t make much of a difference in extract brewing, but a few drops of lactic acid or other food-safe acid will work for adjustments. I use the ph kit I have for my tropical fish to measure it, then a couple drops of acid per gallon, then measure again. Repeat as needed. After a bit you’ll get an idea of how much you need to get to your desired range.

 

[Bobby_M]

The Ph of my water is still massively basic - off the scale high on my normal testing. RO doesn’t affect that part of the water.
However, it only takes a few drops of lactic acid to bring it down than the ounce or more before I got the RO machine.
To the OP: like others said, the ph shouldn’t make much of a difference in extract brewing, but a few drops of lactic acid or other food-safe acid will work for adjustments. I use the ph kit I have for my tropical fish to measure it, then a couple drops of acid per gallon, then measure again. Repeat as needed. After a bit you’ll get an idea of how much you need to get to your desired range.

While RO doesn't move pH around much, it removes all the buffers that would otherwise fight to hold the pH where it is. As soon as any steeping grains or malt extract is added, it will drop. There is no reason to acidify RO water just because a meter or test strip says it's more acidic or basic than you want the beer to be.

 

[mac_1103]

The Ph of my water is still massively basic - off the scale high on my normal testing. RO doesn’t affect that part of the water.

What scale do you use for your normal testing? pH 14 is > 2.5M NaOH, which is basically (no pun intended) drain cleaner.

 

[BrewnWKopperKat]

To the OP: like others said, the ph shouldn’t make much of a difference in extract brewing, but a few drops of lactic acid or other food-safe acid will work for adjustments.

What's still missing is "why" make adjustments and "when" to make those adjustments.

For some styles with high levels of hopping (e.g. NEIPAs, the amount of hops can raise the pH level. So adding an acid, before packaging, can adjust the pH to a 'better' level.

And there are other specific situations where measuring and adjusting pH before packaging can make a difference in the finished beer.

The point is that these adjustments work best when made just before packaging.

BTW, I did some web searching on high mineral content in wort. It appears that pre-packaging acid additions may be less effective when there are higher concentrations of S04, Cl, and/or Na in the wort.

 

[jrgtr42]

While RO doesn't move pH around much, it removes all the buffers that would otherwise fight to hold the pH where it is. As soon as any steeping grains or malt extract is added, it will drop. There is no reason to acidify RO water just because a meter or test strip says it's more acidic or basic than you want the beer to be.

What scale do you use for your normal testing? pH 14 is > 2.5M NaOH, which is basically (no pun intended) drain cleaner.

I use the standard scale most of the time. it's PH 8 at the top of the scale - my water is beyond that - far darker blue than the scale shows. I do have a high-range test set as well, I've used that a few times to get an idea, the PH of the water out of the RO is about 8.8.
As much as the grain does lower the PH when added, it's not that much - most recipes I brew call for wort PH about 5.5 or so. I add enough acid to bring the water down to about 6 or so (I prefer to err a bit higher) before brewing.

 

[mac_1103]

I use the standard scale most of the time. it's PH 8 at the top of the scale - my water is beyond that - far darker blue than the scale shows.

OK, but 8 is not the top of the pH scale and 8.8 is not massively basic (although it is possibly high enough to suggest that something might be off with either you system or your testing).

As much as the grain does lower the PH when added, it's not that much

Depends on the recipe. I guess you must brew mostly light (colored) beers. And again, adjusting the pH of RO water, especially using test strips, isn't going to be very accurate or precise. You'd be a lot better off using a spreadsheet like Bru'nWater to predict the pH of your mash and add acid based on that calculation instead of trying to adjust the pH of the water.

 

[DuncB]

Paraphrasing Noel Coward
A perfect extract beer should be made with extract and water, mixed well and wave the pH meter at it!