Not sure how to move forward... Still in Pre-Mash

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Kornssj

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Hi All,

Brew day was today and it started... And then it did not. Luckily I have not poured grains yet, I'm doing a BIAB, full volume mash. I could use help with some inquires at the bottom. Here is my situation and steps I took. --

This is about my 3rd time building a water profile through Brewsmith and my first time using Lactic Acid to lower my Mash PH. In the past I did not worry about these things and let the flavors speak for themselves which for the most part (except for a batch or two) went okay. Now I want to make sure the PH and Gravity readings hit where they are supposed to.

1. I poured 8.25GAL of Distilled water into my 14GAL Kettle. Started to heat to 154.1F.
2. I poured what i thought was 7ml of Lactic acid, which equates to 8.47 Grams on my scale. I only poured 7.84grams to be a little under so I could adjust as needed.
3. I poured my salt additions and started to test my PH levels.
4. I FREAKING BROKE MY PH METER BULB WHILE WIPING TOO ROUGH :mad: AND THE BREW CAME TO A HALT. MUST ORDER ONLINE AND WAIT.
5. Taped up the mixed water and placed it aside outside and am waiting until my new PH meter comes in.


I can't really move forward with a PH meter which i just ordered and should get there by tonight.

Here are my questions.
1. Does 7ml of lactic acid seem like too much for 8.25GAL of water?? (I'm probably second guessing the software for no reason, but let me know if that sounds like a lot)
2. Does it even matter to check PH level this early? (aiming for Mash PH of 5.2) Should I wait until after dough in to get a proper reading? If so, how long after dough in, 10 mins okay?
3. I taped up outside lid of heated water mixed with lactic acid and salt additions, any issues if I leave that outside at cool 50 degree temp until tomorrow when i finish the mash? -- It is sealed up pretty good, but I just want to make sure the chemistry does not change after couple hours or so and I should just dump the water and try again or something.

Thanks in advance for your help. Hoping to have this done tomorrow.

Here is my beer profile for Blond Ale I am attempting :

1724634595110.png
 
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Personally if I had used a water calculator with accurate input and followed the amounts specified before breaking my ph meter, I would just send it.
When looking to lower ph, I use acidulated malt and have not used lactic acid, but if you followed the dosage, you should be in the ball park and will still make a fine beer.
 
1. Does 7ml of lactic acid seem like too much for 8.25GAL of water?? (I'm probably second guessing the software for no reason, but let me know if that sounds like a lot)
2. Does it even matter to check PH level this early? (aiming for Mash PH of 5.2) Should I wait until after dough in to get a proper reading? If so, how long after dough in, 10 mins okay?
3. I taped up outside lid of heated water mixed with lactic acid and salt additions, any issues if I leave that outside at cool 50 degree temp until tomorrow when i finish the mash? -- It is sealed up pretty good, but I just want to make sure the chemistry does not change after couple hours or so and I should just dump the water and try again or something.
1. Not too much don’t worry

2. You can’t take a mash PH without mashing in first. Mash in your dough, stir good, let it sit 10-15 minutes and boom you’re good.

3. Water is good to go.
I FREAKING BROKE MY PH METER BULB WHILE WIPING TOO ROUGH :mad: AND THE BREW CAME TO A HALT. MUST ORDER ONLINE AND WAIT.

Personally, don’t think i would have stopped my whole brew day because of this but hey to each their own.
 
You can’t take a mash PH without mashing in first. Mash in your dough, stir good, let it sit 10-15 minutes and boom you’re good.
BIAB brewers paradox. You can't be sure of mash pH until 10 to 15 minutes into the mash but if the grains are milled to get a high efficiency, the conversion will be done before that. Do your calculations of minerals/acids and dough in. At 15 minutes measure the pH. Make notes of the recipe, the water additions, and the results and save them for a later brew when you can adjust for that recipe. Don't chase after the pH for this brew, it won't work.
 
BIAB brewers paradox. You can't be sure of mash pH until 10 to 15 minutes into the mash but if the grains are milled to get a high efficiency, the conversion will be done before that. Do your calculations of minerals/acids and dough in. At 15 minutes measure the pH. Make notes of the recipe, the water additions, and the results and save them for a later brew when you can adjust for that recipe. Don't chase after the pH for this brew, it won't work.
Exactly. I mash longer than necessary and check pH several times (also more than necessary). But all I'm really trying to do is make sure that it's close. If it's not close I adjust the additions for next time, especially if the beer didn't turn out the way I wanted.
 
I mean 7 ml seems high to me, especially for a light colored beer. I only do 2.5 gallon batches now, but looking back when I brewed BIAB 5 gallon batches...a Munich Helles I made, 7.36 gallons of distilled water, the brewing salts only combined with the grain bill gave me a pH of 5.43, to drop that to 5.2, I would only have needed 1.62 mL of Lactic per my Bru'n Water spreadsheet.

As for #2 - Take a PH reading 15-20 minutes into the mash. It seems to be with all the lactic, that you were trying to drop your water PH to 5.2 which is not what you want, because the light grains will drop pH even more and you will have a mash pH in the 4's and then the finished beer pH may be too low and you may wind up with a tart beer.
 
I mean 7 ml seems high to me, especially for a light colored beer.
It seemed high to me too, so I entered the grain bill and salts into Bru'nWater. 7 mL of 88% lactic acid dropped the pH almost to zero, and 7 mL of 8.8% dropped it to 4.86. I would use something like 1 mL of 8.8% (1:10 dilution).
 
I must not be understanding what you're saying. 88% lactic acid is >0 pH by itself. How would it drop a buffered mash to 0? edit: If we figure a 1:4000 dilution with no buffering, pH should be about ~4 in distilled water.

(It sounds like OP is talking about strike water. Strike water pH pre-mash is almost meaningless.)
 
I agree with mac and jdauria. After rereading the original post, the second question makes me wonder if they are adjusting the water ph.
I used Bru n water just yesterday for a Vienna lager and with salts just enough to hit 60 ppm of calcium I only needed 0.7 ml of 88% lactic acid to hit 5.4 ph using RO water.
 
I agree with mac and jdauria. After rereading the original post, the second question makes me wonder if they are adjusting the water ph.
I used Bru n water just yesterday for a Vienna lager and with salts just enough to hit 60 ppm of calcium I only needed 0.7 ml of 88% lactic acid to hit 5.4 ph using RO water.
Yeah 7mL does sound more like an adjustment for somebody's ground water.

Kornssj, where did this number come from? Maybe you're using the wrong starting water profile?
 
I must not be understanding what you're saying. 88% lactic acid is >0 pH by itself. How would it drop a buffered mash to 0?
I said almost zero. Bru'nWater spit out pH 0.1 with that grain bill, salts and volume of distilled water (taken from the original post). But I just realized that I made an entry error (added 7 mL per gallon instead of 7 mL total). Corrected entry results in a mash pH of 4.57.
 
I would make the beer. I don't use a pH meter, I found it not necessary after a few brews so I never replaced it after it broke. I use the Bruin water calculator and don't use acids just salt additions. The malt largely buffers the pH and there's a good margin for error.
 
I said almost zero. Bru'nWater spit out pH 0.1 with that grain bill, salts and volume of distilled water (taken from the original post). But I just realized that I made an entry error (added 7 mL per gallon instead of 7 mL total). Corrected entry results in a mash pH of 4.57.
If this is true then the software is unreliable outside of "normal" acid amounts. A pH of 0.1 is not possible from these conditons; if the mash had that pH it would be extremely dangerous.
 
Have I overread it or is nobody talking about the alkalinity of the water in question? Salts mean very little, what's important is the alkalinity of the given water. Without that, there cannot be an answer on wether or not the acid amount is justified.
 
I'd have brewed the beer anyway.

Then I could brew the next one after the replacement came in. Perhaps brewing the same thing and see if any adjustments the pH meter suggested showed up as notable in the final product when compared to the previous.

Aren't you curious?
 
Hi guys.

Yes I'm using distilled water and built a water profile through beersmith.

It gave me an estimate Mash PH of 5.6 after the salt additions which I used the lactic acid to get it down to 5.2.

I checked the PH of water acid and salt mixture last night and it was showing around 3.8. Ive also calibrated the meter using my local tap water as a reference so if that is off (by a varying degree) i know the meter is off as well. By the way, distilled water PH was measured at around 6.

Should I move forward with the mash or dump the water and start over adding just like 2ml of acid and test from there? Really scared of ruining the batch at this point. Don't want to waste the grains.
 
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Just checked Brewing calculator from Brewers friend and got an estimated Mash PH reading of 5.13 after I up'd the Base malt a few ounces (a bit low but i think i should be okay?). This should also help with raising the total alcohol content to 5.1%. I realized now that I added less acid then what the recipe called for which is a good thing because I actually needed 6ml or 7.24grams instead of 7ml.

Looks like I'm a bit low but let me know if that is okay. Im going to head home and fire up the burners and continue on. See the link below for my calculator inputs and let me know if anything looks off. Thanks again everyone!

https://www.brewersfriend.com/mash-chemistry-and-brewing-water-calculator/?id=C02XXL1
 
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I feel like such a Neanderthal -- I just put a drop of wort on a piece of litmus paper at the 15 minute starch test... usually shows about 5 by that time.
 
A lot of good info about mash ph in this thread. Others did mention, but I know I didn’t mention in my earlier post that mash ph is generally measured about 15 minutes into the mash.
For what it’s worth, I’ve had readings range from around 5.0-5.6 with no noticeable issues.
Many far more experienced brewers here than I.
 
I'm getting a reading of about 5.13 and this is about 40 mins into the mash at a warmer temp. Probably 100 degrees. When it cooled all the way down to 78 degrees it went down to 5.4. Probably not an issue, I'm not worried about it too much. I will report back after carbonation when I have tasted the brew.

Will try adding much less next time probably around 5ml to be safe.

By the way, this is a different inquiry but it's killing me... I'm getting an Original Gravity reading of about 1.040 (should be 1.050), I tried to up the malt bill by 12-13 OZ but i guess that was not enough and I have been hearing that grains need to finely milled. Mine came through the mail, and it did not look great, but did have powder at the bottom so that gave me hope. I guess I need to purchase whole grains myself at the store and mill them there?(before you ask, I live in a townhouse) Is that going to pretty much fix my efficiency issue? I've been doing everything else, strike temperature, wrapping my kettle and holding the temp for 90 mins. I would say today is probably as close as I have ever gotten because is started wrapping heavy towels for insulation.
 

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I'm getting a reading of about 5.13 and this is about 40 mins into the mash at a warmer temp. Probably 100 degrees. When it cooled all the way down to 78 degrees it went down to 5.4. Probably not an issue, I'm not worried about it too much. I will report back after carbonation when I have tasted the brew.
.

Just one suggestion, while I cannot see the brand of pH meter you have there, I have had those cheap yellow meters in the past, they are not very accurate and lose calibration easily. Not even sure if they adjust for temperature. Taking readings at room temp (68F) give or take is best. PH will also measure lower at hot temps vs a cooler temps, which is probably why you say the change from 5.13 to 5.4. What I do is I take a few ounces of wort, put in a little jar and stick in my freezer to chill it down to the 60's, and then take pH reading.

Highly recommend spending the money and getting a good meter, the Milwaukee MW102 being one of the best. I use the Aspera PH60 myself, which only runs about $80.
 
I'm pretty sure distilled water should have a PH of 7 so it sounds like your PH meter is off.
1) It is very difficult to measure the pH of distilled or RO water accurately.
2) Distilled water absorbs CO2 from the atmosphere, which generates carbonic acid, which makes the water slightly acidic (pH~5.8)
 
Thank you folks, really great discussion here.

While the PH of distilled water should be 7PH, I have read that it can vary. It's variance is logical given it's atmospheric conditions as stated by @mac_1103 . I did use multiple meters in my process and they were bouncing around, but did give an average of about 6PH, so I want to say that might correct, but can't be completely sure.

@jdauria thanks for your advice on the meter, I think you're right. Have to spend money on something that is quality if you want quality. I will check out the meter you recommended.

Glad I was able to get this (kinda) under my belt. Should help to make my future brews on point!
 
Measuring the pH of the water is useless.

7mL of lactic MAY be a little heavy handed with distilled water as the source with full volume mashing but with just 12 pounds of pilsner malt, Brewfather is predicting pH of 5.33. Good enough. I generally err on the side of using a mL less than software predicts because I've seen acidification overshoot far more than undershoot (that may be confusing... measured pH is often a little lower than predicted).

I too would have just brewed. I have a good meter and if it broke, I would just brew anyway.
 
I have a three vessel EHERMS so I can't say whether your amount was a lot for BIAB. Strike water for me and a batch that size is generally around half of what you are starting with. I fly sparge. However, I have been using Beersmith 3's calculator set to the MPH3 Model and the measured pH is usually within 0.1 or less of the target pH. That's using either acidulated or 88% lactic acid. I typically measure about half way through the mash with the intent to adjust for the next brew.
 
Everything turned out great! Here is a picture of the final product.

Very light flavor goes well with Buffalo wings.

There is virtually no issues with the flavor that I can detect. I ended up picking up a kegland PH meter, looks quality.
 

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Everything turned out great! Here is a picture of the final product.

Very light flavor goes well with Buffalo wings.

There is virtually no issues with the flavor that I can detect. I ended up picking up a kegland PH meter, looks quality.

Looks good! Good luck with that Kegland meter...I bought one a few years ago and for the life of me, it would not hold calibration. I ended up returning it.
 
Looks good! Good luck with that Kegland meter...I bought one a few years ago and for the life of me, it would not hold calibration. I ended up returning it.

I watched the video and dude said that you should store the meter in buffer solution to keep the bulb from drying / wearing out. I picked up a bottle for like 3 bucks and will give it a try. Hopeful that the solution will do the trick but I'll report back in if I need to exchange the meter 🫡
 

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