Isolated Yeast (Tree House): How to Identify and Characterize?

[KLITE]

View attachment 551456
Took my first full pour last night from the batch with KCl — very soft, very full, so I'm pretty happy there. I need to dial the crystal up a hair though in comparison and to my personal taste. This was primarily Vic Secret with a bit of Amarillo and Simcoe. (Split rahr 2-row with pearl, 20% carafoam, 10% flaked oats, 2.5 % c20, 5% Vienna) FG 1.015 | 7.1% abv | 75 IBU

That looks well on it! How did you carb this one? How much does it stink?

 

[melville]

That looks well on it! How did you carb this one? How much does it stink?

Forced carb. Does it stink... hmm... pretty big nose on this one, this 2017 Vic Secret is potent stuff.

 

[ThePaleAleIndian]

Very nice. How was the ... mouthfeelz?

So I did a side by side with mine and Doppelganger today. To my palate and those of two other NEIPA lovers the mouthfeels of the two beers were just about indistinguishable. I wouldn't really describe either one of them as "fluffy" though.

Mine was totally devoid of any spice, that seemed to be pretty prominent to me today in the Doppelganger. It was also more tart and just slightly darker. Also a little less hazy. The orange character was there in both beers I thought, but more in the forefront in mine, probably because of the lack of the spice character.

 

[melville]

So I did a side by side with mine and Doppelganger today. To my palate and those of two other NEIPA lovers the mouthfeels of the two beers were just about indistinguishable. I wouldn't really describe either one of them as "fluffy" though.

Mine was totally devoid of any spice, that seemed to be pretty prominent to me today in the Doppelganger. It was also more tart and just slightly darker. Also a little less hazy. The orange character was there in both beers I thought, but more in the forefront in mine, probably because of the lack of the spice character.

I avoid Munich (and honey) malt now out of fear of my SRM getting too dark on me. How does the sweetness compare?

 

[ThePaleAleIndian]

I avoid Munich (and honey) malt now out of fear of my SRM getting too dark on me. How does the sweetness compare?

The sweetness was pretty close as far as I could tell, but the tartness was different enough that it could skew my perception of it. I suppose a lot of things were different enough in the flavor that could cause that skew, that spice/savory flavor being one of them. One of the guys I did the side by side with said that mine tasted like a toned down version of Doppelganger. What was interesting though is that even though my mash pH was super high, the perceived bitterness on the two beers was actually fairly close I thought. Not sure what to do with that information though.

I hear you on the Munich/honey malt. I dropped honey malt in my NEIPAs a while back because I feel like even at 2% the flavor gets somewhat cloying, at least to my palate and in the context of my process. I've been considering dropping the Munich for my next attempt to get the SRM back down, although I might be able to get away with keeping it and using pils malt for a large portion of the base.

 

[Korx]

The sweetness was pretty close as far as I could tell, but the tartness was different enough that it could skew my perception of it. I suppose a lot of things were different enough in the flavor that could cause that skew, that spice/savory flavor being one of them. One of the guys I did the side by side with said that mine tasted like a toned down version of Doppelganger. What was interesting though is that even though my mash pH was super high, the perceived bitterness on the two beers was actually fairly close I thought. Not sure what to do with that information though.

I hear you on the Munich/honey malt. I dropped honey malt in my NEIPAs a while back because I feel like even at 2% the flavor gets somewhat cloying, at least to my palate and in the context of my process. I've been considering dropping the Munich for my next attempt to get the SRM back down, although I might be able to get away with keeping it and using pils malt for a large portion of the base.

I know you’ve posted bits and pieces here and there. But do you mind sharing this recipe? Water additions?

 

[sag1189]

Interesting, but... if I recall it was the low ca *and* high K that had "us" thinking about KCl.

Just worth noting KCl is commonly used in water softeners instead of NaCl to keep sodium down.

 

[ThePaleAleIndian]

I know you’ve posted bits and pieces here and there. But do you mind sharing this recipe? Water additions?

Yeah, these posts get buried so fast. The recipe/tasting notes were post #1472. That post includes everything but the gram salt additions, which are in post #1362 for this same batch.

 

[KLITE]

Forced carb. Does it stink... hmm... pretty big nose on this one, this 2017 Vic Secret is potent stuff.

How does the mouthfeel compare to other previous attempts with the cbc?

 

[ThePaleAleIndian]

Just worth noting KCl is commonly used in water softeners instead of NaCl to keep sodium down.

You know, I'm kicking myself. I was just over there on Wednesday and I forgot to do something I've been meaning to do for a while - get a sample to send off to Ward Labs from their water fountain.

Of course, the results would need to be taken with a grain of salt, because ultimately we don't know what/how much their brewing liquor has in common with their local water. Or their water fountain for that matter. But I would be interested to know if there are any common elements or clues or whatever from their water fountain compared to the BYO Alter Ego mineral results.

 

[melville]

How does the mouthfeel compare to other previous attempts with the cbc?

Mouthfeel is great, very soft, very full, compares quite nicely in this regard to TH that I have on hand. This and the previous batch were forced carbed and have been my softest yet, but as I said with the last one, probably not because of forced carb, but because I switched to using more NaCl/KCl. They might be softer still naturally carbed, but force carb doesn't appear to be holding them back any.

 

[SanPancho]

, but because I switched to using more NaCl/KCl. .

has anyone tried using elevated levels of Na in these beers? Definitely can add body and fullness, and does have a tendency to sort of round out flavors and make them a bit more cohesive. Now as to which half (Na vs Cl) is the body, and which is the flavor rounding, i have no idea. Maybe a bit of both? But it could be worth trying it out. Anybody gone there yet?

 

[ThePaleAleIndian]

has anyone tried using elevated levels of Na in these beers? Definitely can add body and fullness, and does have a tendency to sort of round out flavors and make them a bit more cohesive. Now as to which half (Na vs Cl) is the body, and which is the flavor rounding, i have no idea. Maybe a bit of both? But it could be worth trying it out. Anybody gone there yet?

On John Palmer's website he says that sodium rounds out beer flavor and accentuates malt sweetness in the 70-150 ppm range, but can induce a harsh bitterness when combined with sulfate. Also says Chloride accentuates malt and "fullness."

I'm really curious about what K does. There doesn't seem to be a whole lot of literature about that. For instance if one were to use those PIKE hop extracts would the resulting beer be similar to one using KCl? I don't know.

http://howtobrew.com/book/section-3/understanding-the-mash-ph/reading-a-water-report

 

[SanPancho]

now is it just me or do palmer's descriptions for Na and Cl seem kinda similar....both are said to enhance maltiness and fullness. just seems odd to me. but maybe thats why we put salt in everything. i often go 100ppm in dark beers.

id love to test them against each other, but the issue is that im unaware of a way to add Na without adding more chloride, or without changing the pH by using soda.

not sure how you could split batch that one...

 

[ThePaleAleIndian]

now is it just me or do palmer's descriptions for Na and Cl seem kinda similar....both are said to enhance maltiness and fullness. just seems odd to me. but maybe thats why we put salt in everything. i often go 100ppm in dark beers.

id love to test them against each other, but the issue is that im unaware of a way to add Na without adding more chloride, or without changing the pH by using soda.

not sure how you could split batch that one...

Yeah, I guess they do seem similar. I wonder if it's because these more off-the-beaten-path salts hadn't been experimented with so much when he wrote that first edition. Not sure if he has more/different info in his newer books.

As far as adding sodium without adding chloride, a while back I looked into adding sulfate without adding calcium, along the lines of what we're trying in this thread. Came up with food grade sodium sulfate:
https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&sou...9DFgQFggfMAA&usg=AOvVaw07-zHpYRV4zrH7PafHG0tC

Hopefully the link works. This would be a way to add sodium without adding chloride as well. Anyway, I decided this wasn't something I was ready to experiment with just yet, but if you do I'd be very interested to know the results!

 

[SanPancho]

I'd be a bit scared to use it considering sodium and sulfates are supposed to have harsh results. And i cant really think of a beer i'd want high sulfates and high sodium in at same time.

 

[ThePaleAleIndian]

I'd be a bit scared to use it considering sodium and sulfates are supposed to have harsh results. And i cant really think of a beer i'd want high sulfates and high sodium in at same time.

Yeah, I mean, this is why I decided not to use it for now too. But I think my case was a little different in that I was after the sulfate and not the sodium. If i wanted to get sodium with no chloride and wanted to use this, I would add some of this up to maybe 40-50 ppm Na and then supplement with gypsum for however much sulfate you want. May or may not still be risky as far as harshness, I don't know.

But I think the reality of it is that if you want sodium without the chloride your options are limited. There is sodium sulfate, but you might have problems with harshness. There is sodium bicarbonate, but you would need to adjust your pH with acid (doable). Then you get into things like sodium citrate, which are even less flavor neutral I imagine. Past that and you get into stuff that's hard to pronounce.

However... there is sodium phosphate, Na3PO4. Phosphates are naturally occurring in malt, which is why there seem to be a lot of people who recommend phosphoric acid for mash pH adjustments. That might be a decent way to go. I found this:
https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&sou...oAeQQFggcMAA&usg=AOvVaw3YI8-MfqqN0uFLdCb1uIBo

So my disclaimer is that I've never used it. But I will say that I don't have any reservations about the phosphate going along for the ride with however much sodium I would want to add. I would definitely try Na3PO4 if I wanted to get sodium without adding chloride.

 

[SanPancho]

TSP. Wow. Never would have occurred to me. Nice find.

 

[Turfgrass]

Lots of posts on this one thread and it been fun to read, although i admit to skipping a page every now and then. Is there a post # already, or can someone create the most likely of processes, water profile and ingredients that TH may use in their line of beers? I’m use there are a lot of posts that HBT members can agree to, but the results of those findings become lost in this huge thread. Thanks in advance.

 

[couchsending]

I think the only thing anyone can agree on is there are 4 yeasts at play in most of their hoppy beers.

 

[ThePaleAleIndian]

Happy New Year everyone!

Had another doppelganger tonight, in addition to some bubbly. I definitely perceived some pepper from it tonight, even though the spice flavor was not something i would have described as pepper when i had it earlier in the week (all cans from the same canning run, canned 12/27). I suppose it could still be confirmation bias, but i was looking for a way to describe that character in all the cans of Doppelganger I had this week and pepper didn't stick out to me as a descriptor until tonight. Still, it's fairly subtle.

Compared to my latest attempt i think I need to drop the Munich, use a more neutral base than GP and up the T-58. Maybe something like 75/20/5% 2-row/carafoam/L10 and 82/3/15% S-04/WB-06/T-58.

 

[ThePaleAleIndian]

Decided to do some testing today and measured the pH and gravity of a can of Doppelganger. Gravity out of the can looks to be 1.017 to my eye. This was a degassed sample, measured at 60F, which is the temp my hydrometer is calibrated to. At the printed-on-label ABV of 8.2%, I would estimate the O.G. would have been 1.079, which corresponds to 78.3% attenuation.

The pH reading came in at 4.54 (degassed, room temp), which if I recall is similar to readings others have taken on Julius. Interesting that Doppelganger is considerably bigger than Julius but the final pH is similar.

I then did a pH reading on my last attempt. Came in at 4.42, also degassed and at the same temp as the Doppelganger sample. Drinking the beers side by side last week, I had noticed mine was considerably more tart. The pH readings confirm that. With the pH scale being a log-10 scale, the difference in pH corresponds to a 30% higher acidity in my batch than in Doppelganger.

I wonder if replacing some of the S-04 with T-58 will both increase that background spice character and also raise the final pH to that 4.5-ish zone.

 

[Livinon2]

Great info! 1.079 is pretty big for an all malt ipa. I have to agree, drinking some cans recently T58 is really starting to stand out, and I'll be increasing my percentage too. I like the theory on final pH, it's also interesting your mash pH was high but it still finished so low. What still has me scratching my head is the RA in their finished beers and consistency of final pH. Maybe yeast related or process?

 

[ThePaleAleIndian]

it's also interesting your mash pH was high but it still finished so low. What still has me scratching my head is the RA in their finished beers and consistency of final pH. Maybe yeast related or process?

Yeah, I was thinking the same thing about my batch, that the mash pH was high enough to make me cringe, but the final pH was comparatively low. I've made beers with 1318 and 1968 that started lower and finished higher pH wise. IIRC the Whitbread strain (S-04, 1098, 007) has a reputation for acid production.

So I have another theory on this. The alkalinity on those Alter Ego mineral results is high at 60 ppm. In that same article, Michael started at 37 ppm alkalinity his batch and finished at 0. My understanding is that some of the alkalinity will precipitate out while brewing. So to finish at 60 ppm would take a lot of alkalinity to begin with. But the hop character/bitterness my palate perceives in TH is closer to what I feel like I've gotten at lower boil pH in my beers. So if they are controlling their mash and boil pH to reasonable levels for the quality of kettle hop character, and still finishing at 4.5 pH, they could be adjusting pH post ferment. Which is also consistent with doppelganger and Julius finishing at about the same pH.

CaCO3 is much more soluble in liquid saturated with CO2, like finished beer, so that may be a way to do it. And this would be consistent with their alkalinity.

All just speculation, and I could be wrong. IIRC, dry hops raise pH, so it could theoretically be as simple as hopping intensity. But at the very least, for me this is motivation to pour a beer and see how much calcium carbonate it takes to raise the pH up to 4.5-ish.

 

[JohnConnor]

View attachment 551456
Took my first full pour last night from the batch with KCl — very soft, very full, so I'm pretty happy there. I need to dial the crystal up a hair though in comparison and to my personal taste. This was primarily Vic Secret with a bit of Amarillo and Simcoe. (Split rahr 2-row with pearl, 20% carafoam, 10% flaked oats, 2.5 % c20, 5% Vienna) FG 1.015 | 7.1% abv | 75 IBU

I'm curious if you feel your grain bill is responsible for the softness more so than the water/yeast? Do you think you could simplify to 2-row and some carafoam and get the same result?

 

[melville]

I'm curious if you feel your grain bill is responsible for the softness more so than the water/yeast? Do you think you could simplify to 2-row and some carafoam and get the same result?

I don't think so. The grist hasn't changed all that much over many, many iterations. Naturally carbing made a difference vs force carbed with no change in water additions, but adding salt(s) and moving those additions to the boil made a much bigger difference. On this point I'm very, very happy. (this was an issue where I was beginning to develop all sorts of crazy ideas on how it was achieved and/or what was hindering me, but like with everything else — adding salt made it better)

Other happy points:

Softness.
Fullness.
Hop Saturation.
Hop aroma.
Appearance.
Overall taste.

Needs work:
Roundedness (I need to dial back on hops and condition the full two weeks)
Balancing out sweet/dry/spice.

Backburner:
Milk Stout!?!?!?!

 

[melville]

It's crazy how much better my last beer is now at just over two weeks conditioning is versus 1 week. 21 day timeframe makes a world of difference.

 

[ThePaleAleIndian]

So here's a question for everyone who's in the 2-3% ish WB-06 club (where I am right now as well).

When I was taking a gravity reading on Doppelganger earlier this week, I drank the sample when I was done. Warm and flat for sure. But what I immediately noticed was that after letting a lot of the volatiles leave, there was a very prominent banana flavor. I started looking for it in subsequent cans that I had. Sure enough, I picked up on it, even carbonated and at serving temp. But no clove. I would point the finger at confirmation bias, but i have experienced this flavor with Haze before and remember picking up on it unprompted, without looking for it.

My attempt at 3% WB-06 didn't have that banana flavor. The ester character has predominantly been much more orange-y. My first attempt, which was 7.5% WB-06 had a bunch of clove, but when that faded the ester character that came out was still that orange flavor. Anyone get any banana from their attempts? Or experience that character in a TH beer?

 

[melville]

So here's a question for everyone who's in the 2-3% ish WB-06 club (where I am right now as well).

When I was taking a gravity reading on Doppelganger earlier this week, I drank the sample when I was done. Warm and flat for sure. But what I immediately noticed was that after letting a lot of the volatiles leave, there was a very prominent banana flavor. I started looking for it in subsequent cans that I had. Sure enough, I picked up on it, even carbonated and at serving temp. But no clove. I would point the finger at confirmation bias, but i have experienced this flavor with Haze before and remember picking up on it unprompted, without looking for it.

My attempt at 3% WB-06 didn't have that banana flavor. The ester character has predominantly been much more orange-y. My first attempt, which was 7.5% WB-06 had a bunch of clove, but when that faded the ester character that came out was still that orange flavor. Anyone get any banana from their attempts? Or experience that character in a TH beer?

My T-58 starter had some banana to it as well if I remember correctly. Can't recall picking that up myself in TH, but banana is prerequisite for bubble gum.

 

[ThePaleAleIndian]

My T-58 starter had some banana to it as well if I remember correctly. Can't recall picking that up myself in TH, but banana is prerequisite for bubble gum.

Oh, interesting, ok. So maybe increasing the T-58 will give us that background spice and also up the banana/bubblegum thing. And hopefully cut the tartness a little bit too.