Is Cider the fastest fermenting beverage there is?

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NeverDie

NeverDie

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I'm new to fermentation, and I just recently started fermenting a number of different juices in parallel: Martinelli's apple juice, grape juice, cherry juice, pomegranate juice, and peach juice. I started them all at the same brix level, and am using the same Premier Cuvee yeast in all of them. What's noteable is that the bubbler on the Martinelli's has been going probably 2x the speed of the next fastest (grape) for the same volume of liquid. Is there something about apple juice (its Ph or maybe some thing else) that makes it far more favorable to rapid fermentation than the other juices?
 
dmtaylor said:
Cider ferments out much slower than beer, if you do it right. I can knock out an English ale in 36 hours with Windsor ale yeast. Ciders, on the other hand, take months.
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Uh, ok, I'm plainly doing it totally wrong then. What early-stage fermentation temperature do you recommend?
 
The only cider I had take a long time was an unpasteurized spontaneous ferment, and that was still done with active fermentation in a couple weeks, just took a few months to work out sulphur and (I assume) go through MLF (cider not my bag so not as knowledgeable).

The handful of controlled ciders (juice or pasteurized cider and pure strain yeast) haven't been appreciably longer than a normal beer ferment. A weekish, maybe 2.
 
Qhrumphf said:
The handful of controlled ciders (juice or pasteurized cider and pure strain yeast) haven't been appreciably longer than a normal beer ferment. A weekish, maybe 2.
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What a relief! That's the kind of time frame I'm interested in. A week or two then done.
 
NeverDie said:
OK, so when is it done then?
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Simple answer - whenever ya want it to be [emoji111]

Higher the FG....greater the residual sugar.

For my lower ABV ciders - below 10.5%...I like to use S04 ale yeast & stop em via cold crashing & racking in the 1.01 - 1.02 range...as I prefer a sweeter cider. Typical ferment time for S04 (for me) is 7-10days....done in the mid/low 60s temp.

Cheers & Good Luck [emoji111]
 
Given same alcohol content cider seems to take longer. Maybe thats because it does ferment so low. Now I am not sure it takes months like I have seen, but it sure does seem to need a longer time. Beer ferments really quickly and I would challenge most to the claim they have racked more 7 day old beer than me. I rack 7 day old beer all the time, cider never looks ready to me and thats without sugar added. with sugar I think that lengthens it. ymmv.

btw, please check out my new cider recipe, daddys orchard. It is soooo good and easy
 
NeverDie said:
Uh, ok, I'm plainly doing it totally wrong then. What early-stage fermentation temperature do you recommend?
Click to expand...

Here's the deal -

Temperature, yeast selection, and nutrients all have an effect on fermentation time. Warmer temps, the faster it goes. With nutrients, faster than without.
But a quick ferment doesn't make the best cider. Cold and slow does. Consider that in apple lands, cider is a winter sport. Apples get pressed October-November and with wild yeast farmhouse cider it's ready to bottle when the apple blossoms are on trees in May. We're talking months here.

It's generally acknowledged that a slow ferment leaves more apple flavor and aroma, and that's what a lot of us strive for. Some people will rack off the lees multiple times to reduce the yeast biomass and slow it down even more.

You can, if you want, ferment on the warm side of your yeast's temp range, and be done in a week. But you risk getting fusel alcohols and H2S sulfur issues. To some people that matters.

But to answer your original question, I don't know if there's anything inherently more enticing to yeast in apple juice than in those others. In fact I would expect grape juice to be the quickest since grapes have more nutrients than apples.
 
Maylar said:
You can, if you want, ferment on the warm side of your yeast's temp range, and be done in a week. But you risk getting fusel alcohols and H2S sulfur issues. To some people that matters.
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Absolutely that matters, and that's where it all gets rather vague about how fast one can/should ferment. So far I haven't seen any kind of useful guidance on what temperatures range to use to safely avoid those issues, aside from the vague advice that lower is better.

I want numbers that I can use!
 
NeverDie said:
Absolutely that matters, and that's where it all gets rather vague about how fast one can/should ferment. So far I haven't seen any kind of useful guidance on what temperatures range to use to safely avoid those issues, aside from the vague advice that lower is better.

I want numbers that I can use!
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Check the data sheet for whatever yeast(s) you use...it will give you the optimal fermentation temp range. Google it up [emoji111]
 
my home stays at about 71-72 F my batch of cider had serious sulfur issues. I didn't use nutrients. basically any temp in the yeasts range will result in fermentation. if you spend a bit of time reading the older posts you will find that pretty much everyone here agrees that lower is better and 78 or under results less unwanted stuff in your brew. This is not an exact science, more of an art. Your millage will vary even if you do everything the other guy did. kinda like one jeep gets 14 mpg and the next gets 13.
 
bmd2k1 said:
Check the data sheet for whatever yeast(s) you use...it will give you the optimal fermentation temp range. Google it up [emoji111]
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Yes, the datasheet will give a range, but at least in the case of Premier Cuvee, it doesn't appear to give a range where you can safely avoid headaches: https://www.homebrewtalk.com/forum/...rmenting-the-must-at-95f.660651/#post-8486999

Safely avoiding the range that will generate literal headaches is what matters to me, and it's not at all clear that the datasheet speaks to that issue specifically. In my view, it should, but it just doesn't seem to.
 
Blacksmith1 said:
my home stays at about 71-72 F my batch of cider had serious sulfur issues. I didn't use nutrients. basically any temp in the yeasts range will result in fermentation. if you spend a bit of time reading the older posts you will find that pretty much everyone here agrees that lower is better and 78 or under results less unwanted stuff in your brew. This is not an exact science, more of an art. Your millage will vary even if you do everything the other guy did. kinda like one jeep gets 14 mpg and the next gets 13.
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Well, FWIW, my house is the same temp as yours, and I do have various juices, including cider, fermenting in parallel at the house temp (because my water bath only holds a couple of containers). Anyhow, I am using yeast nutrient from the outset, and I haven't experienced any sulfur odors on any of them. So, maybe try a small experiment using a yeast nutrient while you wait for your bigger batch to complete? Then at least you'll know for the future... All in all, running small experiments in parallel seems very cheap to do. I'm running quite a few experiments in parallel so I can hopefully climb the learning curve faster. I'd rather fail fast and early on a few small experiments because then I won't waste time or treasure in the future on what doesn't work.
 
NeverDie said:
Absolutely that matters, and that's where it all gets rather vague about how fast one can/should ferment. So far I haven't seen any kind of useful guidance on what temperatures range to use to safely avoid those issues, aside from the vague advice that lower is better.

I want numbers that I can use!
Click to expand...

For me, I do cider in November (late fall) and my basement is typically low to mid 60's F. The usual advice is to shoot for the low end of your chosen yeast's range. This year at 62° my cider reached terminal gravity in about 2 weeks: 1 week to reach 1.010 and after one racking another week to finish. With pectic enzyme it took another 2 weeks to clear. It'll bulk age now until maybe April.
 
Maylar said:
The usual advice is to shoot for the low end of your chosen yeast's range.
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Aha, that confirms it then as to why a proper fermentation will necessarily take a long time: presumably the low end of the range will always be rather slow.

Therefore, I'm going to try a kveik yeast, because then fermenting at room temperature (around 70-72F) will be at the low end of its range. Also, that way I can also do this year round.

Sound good, or do you advise against kveik for some reason?
 
Last edited:
NeverDie - Along with temperature juice will have varying levels of pH, nutrients and solids those (except maybe the solids) will impact fermentation time . I target 1.065 OG and 1.006 FG and typically go to completion in 7 - 10 days. My basement is a constant 62 Deg F Winter and 66 Deg F summer. Even with all that, I have had two summer ciders 5 gallon carboys side-by-side with the exact same apple juice (FAJC), yeast (SO4) and nutrients go to completion 1.008 and 1.004 at different time. (Mysteriously the 1.008 was 2 days slower, i guess some of the little yeasties liked one over the other. IDK)

I have not used kveik but am interested in hearing how this comes out if you do try it. (Reading a bit about it I might be inclined to try it with dry hops in secondary in a Cider or maybe even a Mead.)
 
CKuhns said:
NeverDie - Along with temperature juice will have varying levels of pH, nutrients and solids those (except maybe the solids) will impact fermentation time . I target 1.065 OG and 1.006 FG and typically go to completion in 7 - 10 days. My basement is a constant 62 Deg F Winter and 66 Deg F summer. Even with all that, I have had two summer ciders 5 gallon carboys side-by-side with the exact same apple juice (FAJC), yeast (SO4) and nutrients go to completion 1.008 and 1.004 at different time. (Mysteriously the 1.008 was 2 days slower, i guess some of the little yeasties liked one over the other. IDK)

I have not used kveik but am interested in hearing how this comes out if you do try it. (Reading a bit about it I might be inclined to try it with dry hops in secondary in a Cider or maybe even a Mead.)
Click to expand...

I ordered some S04 today because I've read that it clears very quickly. Have you found that to be true? What matters to me is total build time, and I don't really care how much of that breaks down into fermentation or clearing.

I also ordered some 71B, just because I heard it metabolizes malic acid, and so I'm curious to see what that tastes like.

I'm doing experiments in 1/2 gallon mason jars, so the cost per experiment is fairly low. I have about 10 experiments going now, and I may double that number over the coming week. Then I'll just wait to see how things turn out and compare, then probably iterate on another set of experiments based on those results.
 
S-04 will be sensitive to temperature. It works well below 65°F, and settles well. With pectic enzyme it clears quickly. The lees are light and fluffy and easily disturbed, though some members say that's not true if you chill it in a fridge. I highly recommend yeast nutrients else S-04 is prone to making sulfur.
 
I Never get sulphur/rhino farts using S04....and never use nutrients. My OG is always north of 1.06 via juice + FAJC. My ferment temp is always below 68F - typically 64-66F. It cold crashes Great...and the lees end up very solid...leaving a crystal clear cider for me.

Goes to show ya....different folks w/different protocols end up with different results. Pic is of S04 lees post cc'ing.

Cheers [emoji111] and Good Luck!



0404181021.jpeg
 
Maylar said:
S-04 will be sensitive to temperature. It works well below 65°F, and settles well. With pectic enzyme it clears quickly. The lees are light and fluffy and easily disturbed, though some members say that's not true if you chill it in a fridge. I highly recommend yeast nutrients else S-04 is prone to making sulfur.
Click to expand...
When should I add the pectic enzyme?
 
NeverDie said:
I'm new to fermentation, and I just recently started fermenting a number of different juices in parallel: Martinelli's apple juice, grape juice, cherry juice, pomegranate juice, and peach juice. I started them all at the same brix level, and am using the same Premier Cuvee yeast in all of them. What's noteable is that the bubbler on the Martinelli's has been going probably 2x the speed of the next fastest (grape) for the same volume of liquid. Is there something about apple juice (its Ph or maybe some thing else) that makes it far more favorable to rapid fermentation than the other juices?
Click to expand...

Bubbles will come out of an airlock considerably faster if there is a little less water in that airlock compared to the other ones.

The bubble-o-meter is a horribly inaccurate measurement device.
 
bmd2k1 said:
I Never get sulphur/rhino farts using S04....and never use nutrients. My OG is always north of 1.06 via juice + FAJC. My ferment temp is always below 68F - typically 64-66F. It cold crashes Great...and the lees end up very solid...leaving a crystal clear cider for me.

Goes to show ya....different folks w/different protocols end up with different results.
Click to expand...

Living on the edge of the tropics I was in a tee shirt in my motorcycle today. Since I'm about 6-7 miles from the Gulf of Mexico the water table is too high for a cellar or basement. This leaves me with my A/C to control temps, and the wife will kill me if I try to keep it anywhere near that cold.:eek:

So for those of us in this position, yeasts that like higher temps are the answer. After using the S-04 I found out that S-05 likes higher temps.
 
Blacksmith1 said:
Living on the edge of the tropics I was in a tee shirt in my motorcycle today. Since I'm about 6-7 miles from the Gulf of Mexico the water table is too high for a cellar or basement. This leaves me with my A/C to control temps, and the wife will kill me if I try to keep it anywhere near that cold.:eek:

So for those of us in this position, yeasts that like higher temps are the answer. After using the S-04 I found out that S-05 likes higher temps.
Click to expand...
Jealous! Frikn chilly Michigan here [emoji43]

Saison yeasts....I've heard....are also good warmer weather suckers...though I haven't used yet. Cheers [emoji111]
 
SO4 never an issue with sulfur when fermenting <66 and the yeast started a full day or more ahead of pitch and do add additional nutrients. Ciders clears very well with a relatively solid yeast cake but I always cold crash for a week or so and only do FAJC with some fruit on occasion in secondary.
 
Ok, next time I make some, I will report back. Done or not, visually I dont recall it looking "ready" quickly. And that is coming from a self-professed lazy Brewer who has been known to rack beer 7 days later, force carbonate it, and drink it warm while watching football on Sunday. More than once. I could be wrong and not remembering the time right. I don't know what you're looking for but I posted an amazing recipe for a super simple cider that you can't go wrong with. For some reason this batch has a little more apple flavor or maybe I am day dreaming.
 
Blacksmith1 said:
Living on the edge of the tropics I was in a tee shirt in my motorcycle today. Since I'm about 6-7 miles from the Gulf of Mexico the water table is too high for a cellar or basement. This leaves me with my A/C to control temps, and the wife will kill me if I try to keep it anywhere near that cold.:eek:

So for those of us in this position, yeasts that like higher temps are the answer. After using the S-04 I found out that S-05 likes higher temps.
Click to expand...

I have the same issue as you regarding temps. I'm afraid S-04 won't have much of a window when I can use it.

Anyone know whether S-05 clears as rapidly as S-04?
 
NeverDie said:
Is this the one?
https://www.homebrewtalk.com/forum/threads/daddys-orchard-black-cherry-cider-recipe.659494/
Click to expand...

Yep. Thanks for linking it. Hey, how do you all do that. Thats pretty clever. Anyways thats it. The more I think of it, there is no reason to take that juice out of the factory sealed and sanitized container. Want to put a bung in the hole sure. (I could run with this :) ). Anyways, logically I cant find any good reason for removing the juice. The organic black cherry is amazeballs, and this simple recipe saved Christmas. We drank all the wine on Christmas Eve ;). But everyone loves it and my wife actually drinks it occasionally. Heck its only apple juice and organic black cherry, thats it. I splashed some fireball in it once. Maybe a splash of vodka? Idk. Hope someone gives it a try!

ps-two packs of juice, they come in a 2 pack of 1 g containers, so 4g juice and 4 quarts of black cherry and that makes one perfectly full happy corny

pps-what does fermented grape juice, pineapple juice, black cherry, cranberry juice, etc...taste like. I have been wondering?
 

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