Discussion on malty German beers

[bierhaus15]

Might as well include the preceding page. #73

This brings up an interesting point that is often overlooked in the U.S; many German breweries are not using the standard pils, vienna, and munich malt as we buy from Weyermann or Bestmaltz. Most large breweries have their own unique malt specs that are unlike what we'd expect a pils or munich malt conform to.

I was suprised to hear a brewer at VLB jokingly mention that German brewers only buy Weyermann specialty malts and the base malt is sold to Americans and brewpubs at high prices.

 

[Die_Beerery]

Very true. Ayinger has bags upon bags of Weyermann carafa and caramunich laying everywhere. Most everyone has their own custom basemalts. I cheat and blend barke pils and Weyermann pale ale to create mine.

 

[Schlenkerla]

This brings up an interesting point that is often overlooked in the U.S; many German breweries are not using the standard pils, vienna, and munich malt as we buy from Weyermann or Bestmaltz. Most large breweries have their own unique malt specs that are unlike what we'd expect a pils or munich malt conform to.

I was suprised to hear a brewer at VLB jokingly mention that German brewers only buy Weyermann specialty malts and the base malt is sold to Americans and brewpubs at high prices.

That totally makes sense.

I buy steel for a living. But we buy special formulations within a common everyday low carbon, hot rolled, steel grade. HR1010 or HR1020

 

[TheMadKing]

So fun surprise... I brewed a california common on a whim a few weeks back and it was a kitchen sink beer. I used 5lb of 6-row and 6lb of weyerman pils malt and some crystal 80 - all of it over a year old (I had no great expectations for this beer)

The malt flavor is great! I did absolutely nothing special, and I even used a single infusion mash out of laziness. It reminds me of a more drinkable and crisp Redhook ESB, very bready and attenuated. I fermented with S189 at 63F (warm).

I have to assume that it is the 6-row adding this flavor due to the higher protein and husk volume. Fully anecdotal, but interesting that it turned out so well for being a lazy day brew.

 

[TheMadKing]

I am brewing my english bitter today, but as a good sport I am implementing the following processes:

preboiled mash water
20 ppm Na-Meta
mash cap - normal for me (for heat retention)
hockhurtz mash -normal for me
first wort hopping - normal for me
gentle boil
oversized yeast pitch
O2 added after the pitch - normal for me
fermentation toward the cool end

I'll report back anything I notice as being different (other than the extra hour this will add to my brew day )

 

[dmtaylor]

I fermented with S189 at 63F (warm).

This worked great in MYbock a few months ago... S-189 warm.

 

[TheMadKing]

This worked great in MYbock a few months ago... S-189 warm.

I'm amazed how clean it is. I can't detect any esters at all, but it is admittedly pretty hoppy, and I left it in primary for a full 2 weeks which probably allowed the yeast to really clean up after itself.

 

[TheMadKing]

Mash complete - Noticed zero difference as compared to my normal mash - taste clarity and smell all on par

I assume that I have just not done it right

 

[TheMadKing]

Is there anyone who lives in North Georgia who does LoDo Brewing? I would love to do a side-by-side brew with the same recipe to highlight the differences

 

[Miraculix]

So fun surprise... I brewed a california common on a whim a few weeks back and it was a kitchen sink beer. I used 5lb of 6-row and 6lb of weyerman pils malt and some crystal 80 - all of it over a year old (I had no great expectations for this beer)

The malt flavor is great! I did absolutely nothing special, and I even used a single infusion mash out of laziness. It reminds me of a more drinkable and crisp Redhook ESB, very bready and attenuated. I fermented with S189 at 63F (warm).

I have to assume that it is the 6-row adding this flavor due to the higher protein and husk volume. Fully anecdotal, but interesting that it turned out so well for being a lazy day brew.

No no... I bet you just accidentally followed the whole lodo thing including praying to the goddess of oxygen, may she be blessed.

 

[ba-brewer]

I am brewing my english bitter today, but as a good sport I am implementing the following processes:

preboiled mash water
20 ppm Na-Meta
mash cap - normal for me (for heat retention)
hockhurtz mash -normal for me
first wort hopping - normal for me
gentle boil
oversized yeast pitch
O2 added after the pitch - normal for me
fermentation toward the cool end

I'll report back anything I notice as being different (other than the extra hour this will add to my brew day )

What is the current LODO approach for adding O2, I thought I recall seeing something about adding O2 post pitch could lead so some issues?

 

[TheMadKing]

the low oxygen brewing website recommends adding pure O2 immediately post pitch so that the yeast absorbs it more quickly. I'm still boiling right now, but when I get there, I intend to use an oxygen stone to bubble O2 through the already pitched wort for approximately 1 minute. I don't have a method of measuring flow right now, so this is a really imprecise addition

 

[wobdee]

Is there anyone who lives in North Georgia who does LoDo Brewing? I would love to do a side-by-side brew with the same recipe to highlight the differences

You could try something like this to get an idea of what LODO can do.
http://forum.germanbrewing.net/viewtopic.php?f=49&t=301&hilit=Mini+mash

 

[ba-brewer]

I thought I read there was a change to do O2 pre pitch, some about preventing the yeast from absorbing something and to help reduce the chances of sulfur aroma in the beer. If I got that backward that could explain the sulfur aroma from the LODO beers I made.

The two ales had it in the final beer notty(22ppm), US05(10ppm) and the one lager,WLP835 lager X(10ppm), had a elevated sulfur output during fermentation but does not seem to have it in the final beer. WLP835 is normally quite clean for me during fermentation. Both ales also had a slight minerally finish as well.

I did the mini mash test and it for sure made a lighter wort but stunk of DMS, the other two did not.

I think the actual beers I made LODO could be a bit lighter than normal but I did not do a control brew to confirm that. I was going to do the lager recipe grain bill again today using my normal process to do a control but I am feeling lazy maybe tomorrow.

edit: One other thing I did notice was a slightly raw grain/cereal flavor in the two ales. If that is the "it" flavor I am not sure I am a fan.

 

[TheMadKing]

my post brewing Dunkel looking gorgeous

My Lodo ESB turned out... Totally normal... No obvious differences between final wort vs any other brew day, should be a good bitter

I'll try it again next time when I brew a pilsner in a couple weeks.. Maybe it only works on German styles?

 

[Miraculix]

View attachment 600535 my post brewing Dunkel looking gorgeous

My Lodo ESB turned out... Totally normal... No obvious differences between final wort vs any other brew day, should be a good bitter

I'll try it again next time when I brew a pilsner in a couple weeks.. Maybe it only works on German styles?

A racist brewing technique?

Der Führer hätte nur LODO gebraut!

 

[dmtaylor]

Maybe it only works on German styles?

There is a certain LODO enthusiast who brews only Belgian-style beers...

 

[schematix]

Maybe it only works on German styles?

I think it’s the secret to making an off the charts IPA that lasts for months too.

 

[ba-brewer]

the low oxygen brewing website recommends adding pure O2 immediately post pitch so that the yeast absorbs it more quickly. I'm still boiling right now, but when I get there, I intend to use an oxygen stone to bubble O2 through the already pitched wort for approximately 1 minute. I don't have a method of measuring flow right now, so this is a really imprecise addition

Here are a couple posts that implies there is benefit to oxygenate prior to pitching. Hope all works out well with your beer.

https://www.homebrewtalk.com/forum/...as-unsubstantiated.654814/page-2#post-8380595
https://www.homebrewtalk.com/forum/...as-unsubstantiated.654814/page-2#post-8380986

 

[Iseneye]

I think it’s the secret to making an off the charts IPA that lasts for months too.

Yep. I have a NEIPA that is a few months old and barely diminishing in flavour and aroma. If you follow some of the threads around here there is plenty of "My NEIPA tasted great to start with and is now brown and flavourless".

 

[applescrap]

I didnt see mentioned as I waded through the lodo discussion, the water in Germany. I mean their water I think tastes different and that is what makes it hard to replicate as well? Dont know. Also, the amount of hops and boil time could play a role. I think too much hops will make a beer seem much less malty. Grain type/quality. This has to play a role as well. Just my 2c.

As for lodo, I had no problem with it from the get go. And for one seeking a "winning" brewer I listened to a broadcast on brew files with drew and denny. They had a guy who won nhbc twice, I think plus a s...t ton of other wins. If you want to win nhbc, listen to that. I suppose I could find it and post the link. Its on experimental brewing webpahe iirc. He is particular as hell about packaging, brewing etc...Makes sense. I have never been to a judging or comp, but it makes sense. Beer after beer, some really good. And then, what, what was that? This beer is different and it is, even just a little. Its enough to give it an edge, I feel. I dont know, do lots of American breweries lodo. There are some damn good beers out there. I dont know if I will ever get around to caring enough or brewing lodo. But lets be clear, all of my reading points to a difference. Not always good mind you.

For another winner. Seek mino choi. On chop and brew episode he shows off his 50 medals or however many. Big ones too! He also has a brew file episode. He states clearly that when he stopped using the spring water from his special spring he stopped winning. He would gather 50 g of that water at a time. He got a perfect score on his first mead from a famous judge. I know he ages his product well, and states he only drinks it rarely with friends and family. I am guessing in the year of aging range or more for ciders and meads. He also talks about mastering one style. He brews it over and over, iirc. The way I see it, is if you want to WIN, you need to play how they play. I like winners and support you fully if you want to go for it. Hope either of these two help you.

 

[Bassman2003]

I brewed a pale ale yesterday with only pre-boiling the wort, no dosing. I tasted the wort from the mash and pre pitching. Was the best pale ale wort I have ever made. A lot of malt complexity with the hint of honey note that the lower oxygen seems to create. I also noticed more hop aromatics right before pitching which have never been there in my previous pale ale brews.

Sorry to hear you did not notice any difference as this is one of the big things that convince yourself to put in the extra time!

 

[ba-brewer]

I didnt see mentioned as I waded through the lodo discussion, the water in Germany. I mean their water I think tastes different and that is what makes it hard to replicate as well? Dont know. Also, the amount of hops and boil time could play a role. I think too much hops will make a beer seem much less malty. Grain type/quality. This has to play a role as well. Just my 2c.
As for lodo, I had no problem with it from the get go. And for one seeking a "winning" brewer I listened to a broadcast on brew files with drew and denny. They had a guy who won nhbc twice, I think plus a s...t ton of other wins. If you want to win nhbc, listen to that. I suppose I could find it and post the link. Its on experimental brewing webpahe iirc. He is particular as hell about packaging, brewing etc...Makes sense. I have never been to a judging or comp, but it makes sense. Beer after beer, some really good. And then, what, what was that? This beer is different and it is, even just a little. Its enough to give it an edge, I feel. I dont know, do lots of American breweries lodo. There are some damn good beers out there. I dont know if I will ever get around to caring enough or brewing lodo. But lets be clear, all of my reading points to a difference. Not always good mind you.
For another winner. Seek mino choi. On chop and brew episode he shows off his 50 medals or however many. Big ones too! He also has a brew file episode. He states clearly that when he stopped using the spring water from his special spring he stopped winning. He would gather 50 g of that water at a time. He got a perfect score on his first mead from a famous judge. I know he ages his product well, and states he only drinks it rarely with friends and family. I am guessing in the year of aging range or more for ciders and meads. He also talks about mastering one style. He brews it over and over, iirc. The way I see it, is if you want to WIN, you need to play how they play. I like winners and support you fully if you want to go for it. Hope either of these two help you.

I seen a post somewhere here on BHT that the LODO process is not appropriate for contests, something like it does not travel well or packaging messes it up. Also something about beer judges not being trained to detect the important aspects of a LODO produced beer. Maybe those were jokes and I missed it. The reason I followed the initial LODO thread and read these posts is from a contest perspective, certainly seems like a LODO produced beer should have an advantage.

If you can be honest with yourself about your beer and think it tastes good and meets the criteria for the class of beer you are entering it into you will probable do OK. Sometime the more narrow focused classes are easier as it leaves less room for personal interpretation. I don't think you need to be different you just need to meet the criteria well, maybe exaggerate the key points of the style to get them noticed.

 

[applescrap]

I seen a post somewhere here on BHT that the LODO process is not appropriate for contests, something like it does not travel well or packaging messes it up. Also something about beer judges not being trained to detect the important aspects of a LODO produced beer. Maybe those were jokes and I missed it. The reason I followed the initial LODO thread and read these posts is from a contest perspective, certainly seems like a LODO produced beer should have an advantage.

If you can be honest with yourself about your beer and think it tastes good and meets the criteria for the class of beer you are entering it into you will probable do OK. Sometime the more narrow focused classes are easier as it leaves less room for personal interpretation. I don't think you need to be different you just need to meet the criteria well, maybe exaggerate the key points of the style to get them noticed.

Good points. He goes over that intimately in this q and a. If you havent listened to their shows, they are awesome, both of them. Anyways, I didnt understand what you said until I relistened to it. And that makes a lot of sense. The category you choose to enter matter a lot. And now only 4 entries is all you get.

He won out of 8k beers best of show at nhbc 2016. And has been california homebrewer of the year. Plenty of other awards too. Seems like an awesome dude. I stand corrected he doesnt say lodo I dont think, but he definitely says, no oxygen, sanitary transfer. Also he uses a williams warn (sp?) Counter flow chiller. Purges bottles with co2 and from what I can tell probably looks into this like any other aspect. He also states he takes really good care of them. Says beer is fragile. Talks about zainasheff. Said he had entered a 3yo beer and was still winning with them. Chilled the whole time fo sure. I think aging is huge, (mino choi).

Honestly if you have to make the recipe, then that is a huge factor. I mean people pay Dr. Banforth money at Ucla to create recipes. I mean think about what would go into creating a recipe to top all others.

I couldnt be further on the other side of this spectrum, but I know how to win at something when I set my mind to it. And I have listened to a large amount of podcasts, so I like to chime in.

I would start with what water was available to me and what it makes best. Hopefully it was in a less entered category. But I would try to find the category easiest to win in. I would only brew those 4 beers I was entering in over and over. I would brew tons of them and enter them in any competition I could find. Getting feedback that could help. Drinking the beers while reading feedback (tip from podcast). I would certainly get into oxygen where people found it mattered most and reach out to Nick or whoever to learn more. I would buy the counter flow filler, purge bottles, and package exactly how the winners say they do. I would age beers for a year or more to see the results. Basically I would do whatever it takes. Still with that many beers, a little luck has to be involved too.

Just some ideas to get some inspiration going. Hope one of you, who doesnt already enter, but wants to get into it goes for it. Follow your dreams. I have my own goals and dreams, I try to follow. Need to latch onto something else now that its a given my athletic life is over. Btw here is the recipe. I notice light hop usage, which is what I mentioned before for maltier beers. @madking I hope something above could help your malty beers.

 

[TheMadKing]

I'm not new to competitions and have won a few medals. I'm not chasing golds here and my main interest is not winning comps. I appreciate the feedback but most of that is pretty basic information, no offense

I started this thread to discuss different techniques for brewing German beers and achieving a good malty-but-attenuated flavor and did not intend to ask for troubleshooting advice.

I'm brewing a pilsner next Saturday and I'll be trying those same processes I tried with my ESB again. Maybe I really didn't do it correctly the first time. At a minimum it seems to have had no adverse effect on my numbers (we'll see about flavor though).

I'm still leaning toward mashing technique and yeast manipulation to get the flavors I'm after, which I think are different from this "it" that Lodo allegedly achieves, but I'm keeping an open mind

 

[dmtaylor]

I just picked up WLP833 with high hopes that this yeast will bring me 90% of the way to where I want. I've never used it yet. Crossing fingers. Will report back after I am successful.

 

[sixhotdogneck]

I mean people pay Dr. Banforth money at Ucla to create recipes. I mean think about what would go into creating a recipe to top all others.

Seriously? Recipes are a dime a dozen. What makes his recipes special? I would think any brewer creates and adapts recipes according to their capabilities (process, equipment, ingredients, etc...). It's the adaptation of a recipe to those capabilities and the knowledge of how to handle the inadequacies that make a master brewer.

 

[sixhotdogneck]

The LODO process can be improved even more by home malting, even if you have a closed, purged system and keep your DO to .1 ppm.

Making ones own base malt has great advantage:

1.) Control - Steep, Germinate and Kiln it to your hearts desire. Make it taste the way you want.
2.) Freshness - It won't get any fresher. Retains enzymes in the acrospires that fight oxidation naturally.
3.) The use of SMB and hydrogen peroxide (major oxidizer!!) in the steeping water has it's place when used strategically.

 

[sixhotdogneck]

He won out of 8k beers best of show at nhbc 2016. And has been california homebrewer of the year. Plenty of other awards too. Seems like an awesome dude. I stand corrected he doesnt say lodo I dont think, but he definitely says, no oxygen, sanitary transfer.

It's well known that many top winning beers are blended. A master taster can blend their beers to perfection.

 

[sixhotdogneck]

Sam Adam's oktoberfest is absolutely cloying on the finish, but the initial malt flavor is about right.

Being critical means I have 4 fingers pointed back at me.

Sam Adam's uses Crystal Malt 60L which they haven't properly adapted to their process (though it's close). Different batches of Sam Adams Boston Lager and OctoberFest do taste and finish slightly different. It's like the sweetness of the adjuncts of Bud or Miller. When the process properly handles the recipe it should be a dry finish.