4 wire usa gfci spa box possible to convert to 3 wire?

[Infidel]

I have an older home, built in 1978 with 240v done over "2 hots" and a ground wire. Purchased a spa gfci breaker to use in garage which has instructions pictured below. The instructions are written for the source of electricity being 4 wires only, but has option for 3 wire spa, omit a wire to breaker if not present. Is there a way to make this work? First guess is a jumper wire be placed between the neutral and ground bars or all ground/neutral on the ground bar?

 

[processhead]

I have an older home, built in 1978 with 240v done over "2 hots" and a ground wire. Purchased a spa gfci breaker to use in garage which has instructions pictured below. The instructions are written for the source of electricity being 4 wires only, but has option for 3 wire spa, omit a wire to breaker if not present. Is there a way to make this work? First guess is a jumper wire be placed between the neutral and ground bars or all ground/neutral on the ground bar?

If your house was wired in 1978 by a licensed electrician, it would surprise me that your panel only has "two hots and a ground wire".

Or are you referring to a dryer outlet or some other 220 volt appliance outlet?

 

[Infidel]

well, never used the word "panel".........................................
so referring to an appliance outlet.
tests 250v when the hots are tested together, 125v when tested hot to "neutral/ground"

 

[augiedoggy]

well, never used the word "panel".........................................
so referring to an appliance outlet.
tests 250v when the hots are tested together, 125v when tested hot to "neutral/ground"

Your outlet is just missing the neutral wire.... typical dryer outlet is only three wires hot ,hot and ground.
Edit* this is not correct see below* its hot, hot and neutral.

 

[P-J]

Your outlet is just missing the neutral wire.... typical dryer outlet is only three wires hot ,hot and ground.

Sorry but that is not correct. Dryers have both 240V components and 120V components that must be powered. 240V and neutral is present on a 3 prong dryer outlet.

I've drawn GFCI panel diagrams to accomodate that setup.

P-J

 

[Infidel]

P-J, if you have a drawing to share, please do or message it.
I'm not an electrician, not sure what the difference is once I look in the main panel.

Also why I don't stick my fingers in the main panel.

 

[P-J]

P-J, if you have a drawing to share, please do or message it.
I'm not an electrician, not sure what the difference is once I look in the main panel.

Also why I don't stick my fingers in the main panel.

Here is a panel layout for you.

Hope this helps you.

P-J

 

[augiedoggy]

Sorry but that is not correct. Dryers have both 240V components and 120V components that must be powered. 240V and neutral is present on a 3 prong dryer outlet.

I've drawn GFCI panel diagrams to accomodate that setup.

P-J

Correct!
Sorry I spent yesterday wiring my element cords and those use two hots and a ground so the gfci works. And had that configuration stuck in my head.
My bad!
I believe this is why so many complain about three wire dryers not working correctly on a gfci outlet

 

[Infidel]

I'm not an electrician and will be showing end work to one before using.
So a jumper is the answer? I could still continue with 3 wire service, leaving out the 4th as the blurry original diagram said was optional?

The "neutral pigtail", shown going to ground bus, not neutral bus - but it doesn't matter because they are jumpered?

Here is a panel layout for you.

Hope this helps you.

P-J

 

[PJVargy]

I know this is a really old thread, but does anybody have this diagram that P-J made? I'm trying to wire a spa panel from a three prong (H-H-N) dryer plug, then to an L6-30 outlet.
Can anybody help with this?

 

[augiedoggy]

The ground and neutral will have to be joined for this to work.. it wont meet code but it will function.

 

[rkhanso]

I was told to never connect the ground and neutral anywhere outside the main panel at the house. That main panel is the only place the neutral and ground buss should be tied together. Yes, they are functionally tied together everywhere since they are at the main panel, but there is the need to keep them separate after the main panel for safety sake. You may not remember or someone unknowing may assume everything is up to code when it is not.

I recently added a new sub-panel to my garage for a welder. I ran a 4-wire cable from the house to the sub-panel, but only used the 2 hots and ground to the welder outlet.

From the sub-panel, I ran 4 wires to the Spa Panel with GFCI for the kettle heater. The GFCI breaker requires a neutral connection to work properly - but after that breaker, you don't need to use neutral. I ran only 2 hots and the ground to the kettle element.

Here's a link to the info I used to reference wiring diagrams:
https://www.spadepot.com/spacyclopedia/wiring-hot-tub-spa.htm

The thread to my questions here at HBT:
https://www.homebrewtalk.com/forum/...-answers-wiring-heat-element-question.641291/

Here is the proper wiring diagram for the L6-30 plug:
http://radiantmoons.me/nema-l1430-w...-120v-20-amp-twist-lock-throughout-30-diagram

 

[augiedoggy]

I was told to never connect the ground and neutral anywhere outside the main panel at the house. That main panel is the only place the neutral and ground buss should be tied together. Yes, they are functionally tied together everywhere since they are at the main panel, but there is the need to keep them separate after the main panel for safety sake. You may not remember or someone unknowing may assume everything is up to code when it is not.

I recently added a new sub-panel to my garage for a welder. I ran a 4-wire cable from the house to the sub-panel, but only used the 2 hots and ground to the welder outlet.

From the sub-panel, I ran 4 wires to the Spa Panel with GFCI for the kettle heater. The GFCI breaker requires a neutral connection to work properly - but after that breaker, you don't need to use neutral. I ran only 2 hots and the ground to the kettle element.

Here's a link to the info I used to reference wiring diagrams:
https://www.spadepot.com/spacyclopedia/wiring-hot-tub-spa.htm

The thread to my questions here at HBT:
https://www.homebrewtalk.com/forum/...-answers-wiring-heat-element-question.641291/

Here is the proper wiring diagram for the L6-30 plug:
http://radiantmoons.me/nema-l1430-w...-120v-20-amp-twist-lock-throughout-30-diagram

I believe all this was already maentioned but if a person has pumps or other 120v devices he wants to run off the same power in the same panel, he needs 4 wires.. Some like myself use dc pumps or even 240v pumps and dont have this issue but most want as many buttons and gizmos they can on thier panel and that includes switchs for the pumps to make things easier..

 

[stlbeer]

Here is one of the original P-J drawings.
http://i160.photobucket.com/albums/t172/StLBeer/Brewing and Serving/Control Panel/power-panel-6.jpg

 

[nrjones89]

I know this is a really old thread, but does anybody have this diagram that P-J made? I'm trying to wire a spa panel from a three prong (H-H-N) dryer plug, then to an L6-30 outlet.
Can anybody help with this?

3 prong dryers were used when the neutral was grounded on the appliance or at the panel. If your circuit is 240v ONLY, then you can wire the neutral as your ground, but there will be no neutral. You will not be able to do this if you have any 120v components, which require a neutral. It is true that you should only wire ground and neutral together at the box, but if you are wiring your neutral *as* your ground, then it is something different altogether when it is for a 240v circuit with no neutral wires. Neutral is not required for GFCI to trip.

 

[ajdelange]

I know this is a really old thread, but does anybody have this diagram that P-J made? I'm trying to wire a spa panel from a three prong (H-H-N) dryer plug, then to an L6-30 outlet.
Can anybody help with this?

Are you sure it's H-H-N? In days of yore driers were usually wired H-H-G (e.g. OP) and there was an exception in the code which allowed the ground to be used as a neutral if the drier had 120 V circuits. That exception has been removed for new construction but you will still find driers with terminals that allow them to be wired to this configuration. What wires are in the cable coming into the outlet? If it is truely H-H-N wired correctly you would have red, black and white wires but in that case the cable would be (12/3) or (10/3) and there would be a bare earth wire as well. If it is H-H-G there will be red and black wires plus a bare wire. Note that the red wire might be a white wire which should be marked with red tape or paint. To be certain as to what you have you will have to inspect at each end. Clearly the two hot wires have to go to the lugs on the breaker so the question is as to where the third wire goes - to the neutral bar (the one with all the white wires connected to it) or the earth bar (the one with all the bare wires connected to it).

The best way to solve the problem, be consistent with code requirements and be safe is to pull a new 3 conductor plus ground cable. This sounds horrible (and often is) but if you aren't afraid to cut some drywall and the outlet and panel are close together it may not be that bad after all. There is a situation in which you would not need to do this and that is if you do indeed have H-H-N (black, red, white) run in Bx or a metallic conduit. In that case the armor on the Bx or the conduit can serve as the earth conductor. If you are lucky enough that this is the case do check the integrity of the conduit/armor. Make sure the requisite jumpers are installed in places (if any) where the continuity of the conduit is broken.

Another approach is to convert the H-H-N wiring to H-H-G (marking the G wire with green tape at both ends) and then buy a 240 to 120V step down transformer to run the 120 V loads in your system. The neutral side of the transformer secondary can be tied to the G wire 'legally' as the 120V circuit is now a 'separately derived system'. Transformers are a)heavy b)bulky and c) expensive which makes pulling a new cable relatively attractive.

 

[PJVargy]

Are you sure it's H-H-N? In days of yore driers were usually wired H-H-G (e.g. OP) and there was an exception in the code which allowed the ground to be used as a neutral if the drier had 120 V circuits. That exception has been removed for new construction but you will still find driers with terminals that allow them to be wired to this configuration. What wires are in the cable coming into the outlet? If it is truely H-H-N wired correctly you would have red, black and white wires but in that case the cable would be (12/3) or (10/3) and there would be a bare earth wire as well. If it is H-H-G there will be red and black wires plus a bare wire. Note that the red wire might be a white wire which should be marked with red tape or paint. To be certain as to what you have you will have to inspect at each end. Clearly the two hot wires have to go to the lugs on the breaker so the question is as to where the third wire goes - to the neutral bar (the one with all the white wires connected to it) or the earth bar (the one with all the bare wires connected to it).

The best way to solve the problem, be consistent with code requirements and be safe is to pull a new 3 conductor plus ground cable.

Thanks for your thoughts!
Yes, I'm sure its HHN. I actually ran the line for the dryer plug a few years ago. It is 10/3 wire but our dryer was old, so I put in a 3 prong outlet. The ground is there, but if i dont need it, I'd rather not change the plug and buy two new 4 prong dryer cables.
Since Im only using 240v just to control one element, I think the neutral-ground jumper solution will work fine.
This will be a portable spa panel setup so I'm not too concerned with meeting codes. Just want to make sure the gfci will function properly.

 

[ajdelange]

The ground is there, but if i dont need it, I'd rather not change the plug and buy two new 4 prong dryer cables.

You DO need it. It is what can potentially (no pun intended) save your bacon in case of a fault.

Since I'm only using 240v just to control one element...'

What you don't need, if there are no 120 V loads, is the neutral.

I think the neutral-ground jumper solution will work fine.

With only 240 V loads the neutral serves no purpose. The only thing connecting it to the ground would accomplish is a code violation. If you don't want to change to the proper 4 prong outlets simply disconnect the neutral and connect the ground to the G prong on the receptacle and plug. That's what's supposed to be on that prong - not a neutral wire.

This will be a portable spa panel setup so I'm not too concerned with meeting codes. Just want to make sure the gfci will function properly.

You should be! The code provisions wind up in the code because someone got hurt (or something burned down) before they were promulgated. Why take a risk? Especially since changing the L shaped prong to ground is correcting incorrect wiring. You wan't the GFCI to work - that says you care about safety. Why not make the grounding proper too?

 

[PJVargy]

Thanks ajdelange!
I'm going to just make it right like you're suggesting. I've had doubts with the jumper solution, and after your comments, you've leaned me in the other direction.

 

[augiedoggy]

Forgive me if I missed it, but since the ground and nuetral are connected in the panel we're this wiring originates how exactly would the three prong outlet actually perform any safer if he moved the N to the G when they are already one in the same there? Is this just a technicality or will it actually effect the way it works? Just trying to understand.

 

[ajdelange]

They aren't the same at the outlet. The ground wire is there to place the equipment enclosure at earth potential so that if someone standing on the earth touches it he will not be shocked if there is a fault between a phase and that enclosure. It also ensures that there is a path for the fault current to return to the service entrance so that the breaker will trip. The neutral is there to return 120V load current to the panel. Earth and neutral are tied together at the service entrance (where they are also grounded) so that the two phases are ± 120V with respect to ground. If neutral and ground are also joined at the load then clearly a portion of the neutral load current will flow through the earthing wire. Should the neutral fail (loose connection somewhere) under normal conditions (no fault) all neutral current flows through the ground wire. The code calls this current (full or partial) 'objectionable current' because it raises, due to the finite impedance of the wire, the potential of the equipment enclosure. Though this potential would be modest (10 amps through 100 ft of 12 AWG would give 1.58V) it can be enough to injure someone standing on the earth touching the equipment especially if he is well grounded which he would be, for example, when standing on a wet cement floor. You may argue that 99.999% of the time the conditions will not be such that the voltage induced by objectionable current can injure you. But this provision of the code is there for a reason. It has saved lives. The expected $ savings to you are 0.00001 times the value of your life.

Now since our correspondent has no 120V loads the explanation above does not fully apply (there is no neutral load current) and all he needs to do is see to it that a wire runs from his equipment enclosure to the panel ground so that fault current will be conveyed to ground and the breaker will trip. As the earth and neutral wires in his cable are both tied to the ground at the panel either would do. So why should he bother to remove the neutral wire from the receptacle L shaped prong and connect the ground instead? Because should something happen (a fire at the other end of the house) the insurance company will try to find any excuse to deny the claim. An improperly wired receptacle (the L - shaped prong is a grounding prong) might give them the ammunition they seek. Again you can argue that we are dealing with small probabilities but it is unlikely events that we need to plan for.

 

[augiedoggy]

They aren't the same at the outlet. The ground wire is there to place the equipment enclosure at earth potential so that if someone standing on the earth touches it he will not be shocked if there is a fault between a phase and that enclosure. It also ensures that there is a path for the fault current to return to the panel so that the breaker will trip. The neutral is there to return 120V load current to the panel. Earth and neutral are tied together at the panel so that the two phases are ± 120V with respect to ground. If neutral and ground are also joined at the load then clearly a portion of the neutral load current will flow through the earthing wire. Should the neutral fail (loose connection somewhere) under normal conditions (no fault) all neutral current flows through the ground wire. The code calls this current (full or partial) 'objectionable current' because it raises, due to the finite impedance of the wire, the potential of the equipment enclosure. Though this potential would be modest (10 amps through 100 ft of 12 AWG would give 1.58V) it can be enough to injure someone standing on the earth touching the equipment especially if he is well grounded which he would be, for example, when standing on a wet cement floor. You may argue that 99.999% of the time the conditions will not be such that the voltage induced by objectionable current can injure you. But this provision of the code is there for a reason. It has saved lives. The expected $ savings to you are 0.00001 times the value of your life.

Now since our correspondent has no 120V loads the explanation above does not fully apply (there is no neutral load current) and all he needs to do is see to it that a wire runs from his equipment enclosure to the panel ground so that fault current will be conveyed to ground and the breaker will trip. As the earth and neutral wires in his cable are both tied to the ground at the panel either would do. So why should he bother to remove the neutral wire from the receptacle L shaped prong and connect the ground instead? Because should something happen (a fire at the other end of the house) the insurance company will try to find any excuse to deny the claim. An improperly wired receptacle (the L - shaped prong is a grounding prong) might give them the ammunition they seek. Again you can argue that we are dealing with small probabilities but it is unlikely events that we need to plan for.

so what your saying is they make a 3 prong outlet like the OP has with a N instead of a ground as the third prong? because I still see a three prong outlet with the L shaped wire directly wired to the ground bus in the main panel.. the color of the jacket or if there even is one does not matter in a practical sense here.

The third prong is still functioning as a ground right now and will function as a ground regardless of whether its insulated bare copper... one wont actually work any safer than the other and thats the point I was trying to relay.
many homes have outlets where someone reversed polarity on the outlets or wired a lightswitch wrong.. those commonly found mistakes in old homes are much more of a real issue than something like this as I see it. especially if this is actually a dryer outlet where the third prong was "allowed" to be used by the dryer as a N as well as a ground.

I think if there was an electrical fire, The insurance company would very likely void his claim for having a homemade panel (as stated here a while back by a member that worked for an insurance company) regardless and the real reason for the fire which would much more likely be caused by something thats actually not correct on that end so they wouldnt need to look for a technicality that didnt cause the fire to blame it on..

 

[ajdelange]

so what your saying is they make a 3 prong outlet like the OP has with a N instead of a ground as the third prong?

No, as no one would run HHN without the ground wire. There are plenty of 3 prong plugs and receptacles, of course, for various applications and you can clearly connect any three conductors you like to the prongs but to be consistent with the NEMA standards for 240 V loads we would use 6-30R/P or L6-30R/P with ground connected to the G prong. If we wanted to include the neutral we would use 14-30P/R (or L14-30) with the two phases going to X and Y, neutral to W and ground to G. Since he's already pulled the cable that's what I would recommend he do. He can obviously plug a 240 V only load into a 14-30 and, if at a later date he wants to add 120V loads he is all set up for that too, safe, per code and consistent with NEMA standards.

 

[ajdelange]

The third prong is still functioning as a ground right now and will function as a ground regardless of whether its insulated bare copper... one wont actually work any safer than the other and that's the point I was trying to relay.

No, it wouldn't and actually he can bring what he has into compliance simply by putting a little green tape on the ends of the wire at the box and the panel and, I suppose, moving the wire from the neutral bus to the ground bus. As to function, safety etc there is absolutely no difference what the color of the wire that provides the equipment ground is.

Note: I responded as I did in No. 23 because what I quoted there was the entire post. Clearly you added to it as I was typing (or the system burped).

 

[augiedoggy]

The neutral bus and ground bus are connected together though where it's wired up so how would moving the wire change the way it works? That's what I'm try to wrap my head around.

 

[ajdelange]

It wouldn't. Read #24. To be compliant with code the earthing wire should be connected to the earthing bus - not the neutral bus even though, in a service entrance panel, the two are bonded. But do we know that this panel is the service entrance? I don't.

You are completely free to be as casual with respect to standard practices as you like in your own home. You can use the black wire for neutral, the bare wire for the phase and the white for the earth if you want to but this is likely to confuse electricians, inspectors and perhaps even yourself at some time in the future.

 

[SleepyCreekBrews]

1st commandment: Thou shalt not run load current through the ground wire , ever.

 

[ajdelange]

With the exception of the case mentioned in #16.

 

[itsnotrequired]

You are completely free to be as casual with respect to standard practices as you like in your own home.

this is not true. it would be a code violation to use a black conductor as a neutral, etc. this is one of the reasons the code exists; it may be your home now but very likely will be someone else's in the future.

 

[ajdelange]

It is true. Yes, it would be a code violation to use the black conductor as the neutral but he is certainly free to do that if he wants to. Who is going to stop him? The point is that there very well may be consequences of varying severity if he does such things. For example a home inspector might advise a prospective buyer that the house's electrical system is in disarray.

 

[itsnotrequired]

It is true. Yes, it would be a code violation to use the black conductor as the neutral but he is certainly free to do that if he wants to. Who is going to stop him? The point is that there very well may be consequences of varying severity if he does such things. For example a home inspector might advise a prospective buyer that the house's electrical system is in disarray.

well, if we break it down into such simplistic terms then yes, anyone is free to do whatever they want. of course, actions can have consequences. sometimes there is a false belief that since it is your home, you can do whatever you want WITHOUT consequences (e.g. i don't need a permit to work on my home, i can distill for personal consumption, etc.) that's all i was trying to convey.

using your example, a good home inspector would state the home has code violations, not simply 'is in disarray'.

 

[augiedoggy]

1st commandment: Thou shalt not run load current through the ground wire , ever.

there is no current running through it... Its going to the ground pin on the 3 prong outlet and the other end would be wired to the main panel where the ground and N are joined... I dont know about the OPs house but most homes dont have dryer outlets wired to sub panels if its wired to the main panel it will work as it should and in all practical terms it will work as good.. This is not whats being implied however.. its being implied that there is some real danger other than a technicality which is what has confused me.. In my main breaker box the ground and neutral bar is one and the same with both wired to it ... This means the color of the wire would be the only difference if I had it wired this way (which I dont)

I see lots of wiring with different color tape on the ends marking them in my customers buildings so I think this substitution practice is more common than let on to be.

 

[itsnotrequired]

couple different reasons why it is an issue to have neutrals/grounds tied together. one is that many installations use bare ground conductors that end up touching metal boxes, enclosures, etc. touching these items can result in a shock, if the ground conductor ends up carrying current. the other reason is if the neutral ever became disconnected for some reason. now that ground is carrying all the current so anything it touches will be come energized. the second reason is the primary driver for keeping them separate.

 

[ajdelange]

.. if its wired to the main panel it will work as it should and in all practical terms it will work as good.. This is not whats being implied however..

If you read the thread carefully you will see that that is not only implied but stated plainly:

No, it wouldn't ["actually work any safer than the other"]

its being implied that there is some real danger other than a technicality which is what has confused me..

As to function, safety etc there is absolutely no difference what the color of the wire that provides the equipment ground is.

What is being implied (and stated) is that the hubris of being cavalier about the code, be it on wiring practices that allow objectionable current or choice of wire color, may well lead to nemesis of varying sorts.

In my main breaker box the ground and neutral bar is one and the same with both wired to it ...

Now this puzzles me. I have never seen a panel with a single bar for both (but then I haven't really seen that many panels). Every one I have seen has separate bars with a bonding screw (or other arrangement). I have 3 panels in my house in Va. The neutral and ground buses are separated in each of them (because none of them is the service entrance). In my summer place I have 8 panels (don't ask - it's actually a smaller house but has an elaborate load shedding scheme). In none of them are the ground and neutral buses bonded. Two are for possible locations for an electric brewing setup.

What would you do if you wanted, for example, to install a generator? Have to replace that panel I guess.

I see lots of wiring with different color tape on the ends marking them in my customers buildings so I think this substitution practice is more common than let on to be.

...and actually he can bring what he has into compliance simply by putting a little green tape on the ends of the wire at the box and the panel

This is very common practice. It's all over my houses and I've seen it commercial systems too. It's completely within code.

I think a lot of the confusion when this subject arises (as it seems to fairly frequently) is because it often takes several rounds of posts before it is clear exactly what the OP has and has in mind. OTOH this is apparently a difficult subject to understand. I've done two additions to houses and had professional electricians botch the grounding in both cases. I also had additional work done (adding a generator) later. I thought it was interesting that the inspector commented that he was just going to 'check the grounding' because he trusted the contractor (good man this time - didn't botch the grounding). But even the inspector made a comment about the earthing system (and made me disconnect a second earthing rod) showing that he didn't understand how the system works.

 

[ajdelange]

couple different reasons why it is an issue to have neutrals/grounds tied together. one is that many installations use bare ground conductors that end up touching metal boxes, enclosures, etc. touching these items can result in a shock, if the ground conductor ends up carrying current. the other reason is if the neutral ever became disconnected for some reason. now that ground is carrying all the current so anything it touches will be come energized. the second reason is the primary driver for keeping them separate.

See No. 21.

 

[rkhanso]

To avoid any problems with the insurance adjuster, I'd keep the wiring to code - and not give the insurance company any reason to deny a claim due to my disregarding wiring codes. While there may be multiple ways to wire the equipment, there is one code to keep in compliance with.

I've not had an electrician inspect my brew system wiring yet. I need to have my wife's retired Master Electrician uncle over for a homebrew..........and an electrical inspection.

 

[augiedoggy]

To avoid any problems with the insurance adjuster, I'd keep the wiring to code - and not give the insurance company any reason to deny a claim due to my disregarding wiring codes. While there may be multiple ways to wire the equipment, there is one code to keep in compliance with.

I've not had an electrician inspect my brew system wiring yet. I need to have my wife's retired Master Electrician uncle over for a homebrew..........and an electrical inspection.

This came up a while back in another thread where an insurance adjuster commented that unless the panel is UL listed if there was a problem related to it the insurance would void the claim. I know of no official document an electrician can provide to make an appliance UL or CE certified.. I think code inspectors inspections can only appy to hardwired devices that are hardwired into the house and a panel would normally be considered an appliance.

 

[rkhanso]

I failed to be specific and was more referencing the wiring of the spa panel and any other sub-panel being wired up to code (which will have a UL listing on them) - since that's what the original poster's question was about.

Yes, the brew controllers and kettles won't be UL listed as a unit, though the Heating element itself should be. I checked my Dernord element and it is supposed to be UL Listed.

Be Safe.

 

[ajdelange]

I suppose we should all go read the fine print in our insurance policies.

The rational among us will understand that following the practices dictated by the code will in our panels, receptacles and anything we connect to them will minimize the probability of having a conversation with an insurance adjuster.

 

[Br3w4u]

If it’s portable then just make sure it’s the first thing you grab when you are running out of the burning house. Then you just blame the fire on the house wiring.