Belgian Dark Strong Ale The Pious - Westvleteren 12 style quad - multiple

Williams 728
Homebrew Talk - Beer, Wine, Mead, & Cider Brewing Discussion Forum

Help Support Homebrew Talk - Beer, Wine, Mead, & Cider Brewing Discussion Forum:

This site may earn a commission from merchant affiliate links, including eBay, Amazon, and others.
Colorado68 said:
I brewed the traditional and it's been chilling (50 degrees) in secondary for 6 weeks. Do you think I should I wait a little longer or should it be good to bottle now? It hit 1.011 when it went into the cooler.

Harvested some yeast during the fist day of fermentation and it's been sitting in the fridge. Should I make a yeast starter from that for bottling or just use something like US05?

Thanks!
Click to expand...

Lalvin EC-1118 is <$1 for a 5 gram pack. I bottle everything and re-yeast at a rate of 1 gram/5 gallons (rehydrated), about 1e6 cells/mL, and get consistent carbonation without any further fermentation of the beer except the priming sugar. 50+ times doing this. Hefeweizen is the only beer I make that doesn't get this bottling yeast.

US05/S04 may work, but it's possible for a beer yeast may ferment more complex sugars than the EC-1118.
 
rockdemon said:
Will the yeast from the bottom of the primary be ok to harvest even thou its such high alcohol in the beer?


Sent from my iPhone using Home Brew
Click to expand...

Preferably not. You can harvest krausen from a high ABV ale but flocc'd yeast from something as high as 10% ABV will be a mixture of weak/dead cells.
 
CSI said:
We state the shelf at 6 months but as long as it's not solid it should be fine. For long term storage you can put it into the freezer for a year, (just not the refrigerator).
Click to expand...

What is the issue with keeping it cool instead of frozen?
 
CSI said:
Preferably not. You can harvest krausen from a high ABV ale but flocc'd yeast from something as high as 10% ABV will be a mixture of weak/dead cells.
Click to expand...

Ive gotten the idea that i will from now on make abit more starter than needed and save some of that instead of harvesting from the fermentor since i only do +1070 beers. I have a question about decoction. I dont have 2 big pots and the whole decoction things seems like it will mess up my kitchen. Would your abt 12 or westy recipe work with infusion mashing instead?
 
rockdemon said:
Ive gotten the idea that i will from now on make abit more starter than needed and save some of that instead of harvesting from the fermentor since i only do +1070 beers. I have a question about decoction. I dont have 2 big pots and the whole decoction things seems like it will mess up my kitchen. Would your abt 12 or westy recipe work with infusion mashing instead?
Click to expand...

Works just fine with single infusion. I'd mash at 147-148 for 90-120 min and go from there. Last time I made this recipe I used single infusion with a little special B for color. Wanted it a tad darker and drier. :)
 
tehnick said:
Works just fine with single infusion. I'd mash at 147-148 for 90-120 min and go from there. Last time I made this recipe I used single infusion with a little special B for color. Wanted it a tad darker and drier. :)
Click to expand...

but can i do multirest mashing by adding boiling water to reach the diff temperatures instead of decoction? Id like to do different rests but i donw want to have to separate parts of the mash and boil that and so forth, i just want to use my water boiler
 
rockdemon said:
but can i do multirest mashing by adding boiling water to reach the diff temperatures instead of decoction? Id like to do different rests but i donw want to have to separate parts of the mash and boil that and so forth, i just want to use my water boiler
Click to expand...

Yes, you can do step mashing with multiple infusions. You'll need the step mash calc from ProMash, Beersmith or an online calc to get the volumes/temps.
 
rockdemon said:
Ive gotten the idea that i will from now on make abit more starter than needed and save some of that instead of harvesting from the fermentor since i only do +1070 beers. I have a question about decoction. I dont have 2 big pots and the whole decoction things seems like it will mess up my kitchen. Would your abt 12 or westy recipe work with infusion mashing instead?
Click to expand...

The traditional decoctions add a little more malty-bready character when using only Pils. This was the only way we could get closer to the import, (Pils + decoction).
 
Damn superfermenting wort! Yet another beer turnes into some kind of lethal weapon! From 1090 to 1009 in 7 days. Im gonna stop doing these 90 min mashes at 65C. I have my basement full of low gravity dark belgian strongs now. This is batch nr 4 that has gone far below the fg i wanted. ImageUploadedByHome Brew1409668884.659818.jpg


Sent from my iPhone using Home Brew
 
rockdemon said:
Damn superfermenting wort! Yet another beer turnes into some kind of lethal weapon! From 1090 to 1009 in 7 days. Im gonna stop doing these 90 min mashes at 65C. I have my basement full of low gravity dark belgian strongs now. This is batch nr 4 that has gone far below the fg i wanted. View attachment 221594


Sent from my iPhone using Home Brew
Click to expand...

Somewhere in the pages of this massive thread was another brewer who had the same problem. He said the super-attenuation was across all styles and that he had tracked it to his water profile. If I find it I'll pass the link location along.

I have to say that I'm a little envious since we had to step up the pitch rate to dial in the FG, (rather than the reverse). :)
 
CSI - is your water as devoid of "stuff" as CMUD (Charlotte) water? Mine has the profile of Pilsen. I wonder what in the water would increase attenuation.
 
CSI said:
Somewhere in the pages of this massive thread was another brewer who had the same problem. He said the super-attenuation was across all styles and that he had tracked it to his water profile. If I find it I'll pass the link location along.

I have to say that I'm a little envious since we had to step up the pitch rate to dial in the FG, (rather than the reverse). :)
Click to expand...

hmm, thats very interresting yet weird. I know i can get the info on my water from the waterdepartment, just havent done it yet.
Thats the prob with these superlong threads, almost impossible to find that specific reply youre lookin for.
The only beers that dont ferment this much are the pale ales i make with safale-05, i just sprinkle that yeast on top of the aerated wort, im actually thinking of making a starter for that yeast since my pale ales are a bit too sweet :)

But back to the subject, I was worried that this one wouldnt ferment enough since its now longer warm here in sweden now, the inside temp has fallen from 24 to 21 degrees so i never got the fermentation to 28C(as the recipe said), only to 26C. but still there was activity in the airlock after 7 days, i even have some acticity in the secondary now, so itll drop 1-2 points more and become a +11 abv monster, maybe i can print new labels and call it a barley wine?

I want my vengeance with the westy so any day now ill try your CSI single malt recipe but with a few changes in the mashing. Ill go with a 5 step infusion mash that i got from a swede and thats been praised by many,
*10min 45c,
*10min 52c,
*30min 62c, *
*30 min 72c
*mash out at 78c.

Im going to try that schedule this weekend on a two-beer-experiment, im making the same beer twice but with the westmalle strain in one and dupont in the other, basic recipe, pilsner malt and 12% candisugar and a bit more hops than usual, haller,saaz and SG. OG 1070.
If i like what comes out of it ill try that on your westy recipe. If not, ill use the temps from your page.
 
FredTheNuke said:
CSI - is your water as devoid of "stuff" as CMUD (Charlotte) water? Mine has the profile of Pilsen. I wonder what in the water would increase attenuation.
Click to expand...

We use 4 stage RO and build the water. pH, phosphorus and certain aminos come to mind initially for accelerated growth but there are literally hundreds of chains and products coming from a yeast cell during growth and fermentation. If I find that post I'll get it linked. In the end this is probably a Chris White biochem question.
 
rockdemon said:
hmm, thats very interresting yet weird. I know i can get the info on my water from the waterdepartment, just havent done it yet.
Thats the prob with these superlong threads, almost impossible to find that specific reply youre lookin for.
The only beers that dont ferment this much are the pale ales i make with safale-05, i just sprinkle that yeast on top of the aerated wort, im actually thinking of making a starter for that yeast since my pale ales are a bit too sweet :)

But back to the subject, I was worried that this one wouldnt ferment enough since its now longer warm here in sweden now, the inside temp has fallen from 24 to 21 degrees so i never got the fermentation to 28C(as the recipe said), only to 26C. but still there was activity in the airlock after 7 days, i even have some acticity in the secondary now, so itll drop 1-2 points more and become a +11 abv monster, maybe i can print new labels and call it a barley wine?

I want my vengeance with the westy so any day now ill try your CSI single malt recipe but with a few changes in the mashing. Ill go with a 5 step infusion mash that i got from a swede and thats been praised by many,
*10min 45c,
*10min 52c,
*30min 62c, *
*30 min 72c
*mash out at 78c.

Im going to try that schedule this weekend on a two-beer-experiment, im making the same beer twice but with the westmalle strain in one and dupont in the other, basic recipe, pilsner malt and 12% candisugar and a bit more hops than usual, haller,saaz and SG. OG 1070.
If i like what comes out of it ill try that on your westy recipe. If not, ill use the temps from your page.
Click to expand...

For Belgians we like the simple grist, (as you have it). The traditional mash you have sounds very good. The pitch rate and ramping ferm temps are important. With super-attenuation the final points can be controlled by crashing the yeast at 1.014 - 1.015, dump the majority of primary yeast, then allow the primary to slowly warm again for d-rest and final attenuation. Some prefer to dial back the pitch rate until there is primary yeast exhaustion at 1.013. The first method will produce a cleaner, fruitier ale, the second a more complex one. (we've done it hands on both ways).
 
CSI said:
For Belgians we like the simple grist, (as you have it). The traditional mash you have sounds very good. The pitch rate and ramping ferm temps are important. With super-attenuation the final points can be controlled by crashing the yeast at 1.014 - 1.015, dump the majority of primary yeast, then allow the primary to slowly warm again for d-rest and final attenuation. Some prefer to dial back the pitch rate until there is primary yeast exhaustion at 1.013. The first method will produce a cleaner, fruitier ale, the second a more complex one.
Click to expand...

So maybe i should start checking the gravity after 5-6 days from now on to see where im at, and then if needed cool it down and then rack to secondary.
I dont have the equipment to control temperature that much, i put my fermentor in an icebucket when i want to lower the temp.
 
CSI said:
I haven't heard from him either. He moved further out West and then no word.
Click to expand...

Im dumping the low FG westy today and tomorrow ill try the new world recipe once more. I want to try a three rest infusion mash this time. You have one on your recipe(abt12) page, 10 min at 124 f, 50 min at 148 and 15 min at 170. Do you think its a good idea? The reason that im trying this multimalt version is simply put my need for vengeance and because i bought all those malts and want to use them...
 
rockdemon said:
Im dumping the low FG westy today and tomorrow ill try the new world recipe once more. I want to try a three rest infusion mash this time. You have one on your recipe(abt12) page, 10 min at 124 f, 50 min at 148 and 15 min at 170. Do you think its a good idea? The reason that im trying this multimalt version is simply put my need for vengeance and because i bought all those malts and want to use them...
Click to expand...

Why don't you keep it and just blend?
 
smokinghole said:
Why don't you keep it and just blend?
Click to expand...


I like the idea but how would i know how to mix it? There was a lot of trub in the primary so i only got 2.3 gal of the low fg beer. If i make like 4 gal of new beer i need what fg to make the whole thing end up at 1013-1014? Isnt there a big chance ill just screw the whole thing up? Ive only been brewing for about 10 months...


Sent from my iPhone using Home Brew
 
Well if the space is more valuable then dump the beer. I'm just saying why waste the effort if you're trying to make more batches of the same beer. You can minimize the impact on the final beer with careful blending and you get more beer in the end.
 
smokinghole said:
Well if the space is more valuable then dump the beer. I'm just saying why waste the effort if you're trying to make more batches of the same beer. You can minimize the impact on the final beer with careful blending and you get more beer in the end.
Click to expand...

Yeah i get your point, its a good one but my i have no idea of how to make this second beer the correct gravity so thr mix will end up with the gravity i want?



Sent from my iPhone using Home Brew
 
I would think the FG's will just be the average of the two, taking into account that the volumes of each batch may be different.

In your case you have 2.3 gal of low FG right now, let's say FG is 1.070. Assume you make 2.7 gal of higher FG in our next batch, say 1.090, I chose 2.7gal for the second batch to round off the numbers.

Now you'd have 5 gal of beer. Multiple the FG of the first batch by 2.3 and the FG of the second batch by 2.7. Add what you get from those and divide by 5, or your total finished volume.
First batch = 2.3gal * 1.070 = 2.461
Second batch = 2.7gal * 1.090 = 2.943
Finished blend = (2.461 + 2.943)\5gal = 1.0808

I could be way off on this, but to me it makes sense. I'm kind of reversing what is said in this article from BYO:
https://byo.com/stories/item/237-blending-for-volume-techniques
 
rockdemon said:
I like the idea but how would i know how to mix it? There was a lot of trub in the primary so i only got 2.3 gal of the low fg beer. If i make like 4 gal of new beer i need what fg to make the whole thing end up at 1013-1014? Isnt there a big chance ill just screw the whole thing up? Ive only been brewing for about 10 months...


Sent from my iPhone using Home Brew
Click to expand...

Congrats for taking on an ale this method-complex early on. I now understand the "vengeance" statement! You'll win in the end :)
 
First batch = 2.3gal * 1.007 = 2.31
Second batch = 2.3gal * 1.025 = 2.35
Finished blend = (2.31 + 2.35)\4.6gal = 1.013.

That would be nice but the chance of me hitting 1025 on this second batch is slim to say the least. But I'll do like this. I make a new attempt at the beer tomorrow. I dont dump the beer i have. If the grav is to high on the new beer after a week ill blend the two. The beer i have isnt bad except that its just toooo dry and no sweetness so it feels wrong to dump it.



Sent from my iPhone using Home Brew
 
CSI said:
Congrats for taking on an ale this method-complex early on. I now understand the "vengeance" statement! You'll win in the end :)
Click to expand...


Yeah its not easy when you just like belgian beer, especially the dark ones. Ive made an american pale ale a couple of times as a "table beer" but its not really my thing. Its extremely annoying to fail so many times with these belgians. Ive tried to brew westmalle, affligem, la chouffe and saisons of different kinds and they have all been failures. But i aint givin up. My biggest challenge right now is to get the right amount of yeast. Doing two starters at the moment. My own mixture of st b yeast and wyeast high gravity and the wyeast belgian saison. GF is away this weekend so itll be a threebrewbonanza:)


Sent from my iPhone using Home Brew
 
I'm currently making a yeast starter, and am planning to brew the "New World" recipe on Tuesday (have all the ingredients). I was wondering - since this uses enough grain to make 10 gallons of lower gravity beer, and since we are basically just using the "first runnings" of the mash, would there be enough sugar left in the grain after drawing out what is needed for the Westy to make 2 or 3 gallons of lower gravity beer (say S.G. of about 1.048) if more water was sparged through the grain? Has anyone tried this?
 
Should definitely be possible to make another low gravity brew. Look up partygyle and you should find all the info you need.
 
Bottoms_Up said:
Thanks - I'll do a search for partygyle.
Click to expand...

Well, I did some research and some calculations, and it appears that the Westy will take up almost all of the gravity points in the grain. There might be enough left in the grains for a quart or two, but that's hardly worthwhile. The partygyle approach seems to be more applicable to a beer such as barleywine, where about 30 pounds of grain are used for 5 gallons, rather than about 18 pounds as for the Westy.
 
rockdemon said:
Im dumping the low FG westy today and tomorrow ill try the new world recipe once more. I want to try a three rest infusion mash this time. You have one on your recipe(abt12) page, 10 min at 124 f, 50 min at 148 and 15 min at 170. Do you think its a good idea? The reason that im trying this multimalt version is simply put my need for vengeance and because i bought all those malts and want to use them...
Click to expand...

Don't dump it, I'll take it!
 
My brew went well today, despite a stuck drain from the mash that required re-stirring. The most disappointing part was the resultant specific gravity. Although I followed the recipe quite closely, my O.G. was 1.080 rather than 1.090. I'm not sure why, although I did overestimate the amount of trub by a couple of liters, and ended up with a little more post-boil wort than I expected, which diluted the beer down somewhat. This beer actually produces very little trub (I'm used to making ten gallon batches using significantly more hops, rather than five-gallon batches). I was very surprised by how fast the yeast started working. I noticed activity in the fermentation lock after only two hours (I'm also used to making pilsners/lagers, at much lower fermentation temperatures, which requires much more time to see activity).

By the way, I tasted a drop or two of the D180 (and D-90). Very nice flavour! The beet sugar comes through, but also a little fruit taste, like tart plums or prunes.
 
Those tart plum and prune notes should become a little more prominent in the finished product. I also pick up on some raisin taste when I use 90. I have always found the flavors to be more like molasses and brown sugar like before being boiled then change to the dark stone fruits after fermenting. Could be the yeast coming through to.
 
Yes, I also picked up the raisin notes in the D-90. I look forward to these dark fruits coming through in the finished product. I'm now working on getting the fermentation up to 82 F, and have covered the carboy with a blanket. I just haven't figured out how to measure the temperature of the wort. My electronic thermometer doesn't fit into the neck of the carboy, and it's probe is far too short. Is there such a thing as a thermometer with a long probe of about 8-10 inches? With all the beer gadgets, you would have thought that someone would have designed such a handy tool by now.
 
Bottoms_Up said:
Yes, I also picked up the raisin notes in the D-90. I look forward to these dark fruits coming through in the finished product. I'm now working on getting the fermentation up to 82 F, and have covered the carboy with a blanket. I just haven't figured out how to measure the temperature of the wort. My electronic thermometer doesn't fit into the neck of the carboy, and it's probe is far too short. Is there such a thing as a thermometer with a long probe of about 8-10 inches? With all the beer gadgets, you would have thought that someone would have designed such a handy tool by now.
Click to expand...


Why not use a stick-on thermometer. I have one on each carboy. https://encrypted-tbn1.gstatic.com/...KA63Mel1mF-EZ9CfdRlmYU6Hq3jADbbOkqZ0MH3qlA6Hw


Sent from my iPhone using Home Brew
 

Similar threads

D
First Recipe: 1 Gallon Maris Otter / Goldings SMaSH (Comments, suggestions?)
Replies
6
Views
379
Northern_Brewer
Northern_Brewer
Zippy123
Feedback on recipe to split mash for two different beers
Replies
2
Views
435
Zippy123
Zippy123
PashMaddle
Brew day #2 is done.
Replies
22
Views
1K
lumpher
lumpher
S
Autumn Wheat Ale
Replies
5
Views
1K
kwilson16
kwilson16
Clint Yeastwood
Failure Beer
Replies
9
Views
830
Zambezi Special
Zambezi Special

Latest posts

Back
Top