propane solenoid valve help?

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wardenwheat

wardenwheat

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I want to add an automated solenoid valve for my propane burner using a temperature controller to trigger it. I have read a ton of info and it just made me more confused! I have a ranco controller and I need recommendations of what type of valve and equipment I need to set it up.
 
The STC brand solenoid valves are more cost effective than the ASCO's, do a search for STC valves and electric ignition to get some ideas as to the solenoid controlled burner systems built by members. Would advise you to use a safety system with a solenoid controlled burner as a pilot going out and solenoid valve opening could lead to a big blast if a quantity of propane would light off something else in area.
 
Those look exactly like the ones I use but I don't recall the exact specs. There is a very good thread around here that talks in depth about valves, although if you are confused now...it will likely make you more confused. HA.

I'll find it and update this post...

Edit: (Not being a prick, I know they can be hard to find)
https://www.homebrewtalk.com/f11/brutus-ten-44403/
This thread is long, but a very good read.


ASCO and STC are the two commonly used. Both work admirably. Some of the 'debate', for lack of a better term, is that the appropriate valves aren't being used for this specific application. i.e. Water & Air rated valves are being used for gas and a "Use at your own risk" warning has been suggested. Valves that are truely rated for this type of gas application can be costly for a homebrewing environment.
 
Yes these valves will work for both high and low pressure gas systems, when you order them you have 2 choices, 120/60 AC coil if you are not going to use an electric ignition system, or 24/60 ac coil if you are. With the 120/60 AC coil you can use the same 120V power for both ranco and solenoid coil without needing any other power source. Would recommend a pilot or burner flame safety system if you are not willing to watch for a pilot flameout during opration. When used with an electric igniton module the 24/60 AC coil will be connected directly to the ignition module which is powered by a 120/24 VAC transformer.
 
thanks, i know there is so much information going around the threads about all the different ways to do this.
 
I would not try to use a temperature controller to operate a gas valve. There are no built in safety features to deal with the possibility of the flame or pilot going out. Just get a gas valve from from an old hot water heater. It will have everything needed to do the job. It will need to be a valve designed for propane, or be able to be converted to propane, or you may need to spring for a new one.

Tom
 
If you are going to use high pressure burners and regulator (10 psi+) then the standing pilot furnace valves are out. Appliance valves are not high enough flow capacity to be usefull and also are limited to low pressure applications. If you have the banjo or hurricane burners there are low pressure jets available for them that will work with low pressure (11") LP or (4"-7")NG and let you use furnace valves or Baso H19 pilot safety valves and solenoids. For high pressure LP there are few choices for safety systems, electric ignition, Baso 19H high pressure model, or a thermocouple safety switch wired in series with solenoid.
 
Figbash said:
I would not try to use a temperature controller to operate a gas valve. There are no built in safety features to deal with the possibility of the flame or pilot going out. Just get a gas valve from from an old hot water heater. It will have everything needed to do the job. It will need to be a valve designed for propane, or be able to be converted to propane, or you may need to spring for a new one.

Tom
Click to expand...

This is why I also added a pilot safety valve (BASO).
 
let me see if i have this right. i need a stc / asco valve to be controlled by some type of controller ( i plan to use the BCS-460) a automatic and high Pressure Safety Pilot Valve ( BASO H-15 series) and a pilot light.
 
tarheels said:
let me see if i have this right. i need a stc / asco valve to be controlled by some type of controller ( i plan to use the BCS-460) a automatic and high Pressure Safety Pilot Valve ( BASO H-15 series) and a pilot light.
Click to expand...

"Need" is the operative word here, but since we are talking about automation, then the two main options that have been discussed and are commonly used are: Pilot light w/ safety shut value OR Electronic ignition (spark)

BurnerValveAssembly.jpg


In my assembly above (standing pilot) the components are as follows from bottom up:

BASO Pilot Safety valve
- 2 peripheral connections are the thermocouple (copper lead) and the pilot light gas feed (aluminum tubing). Thermocouple sits in the pilot light and heats up. If flame is ON, then thermocouple is hot and opens valve providing gas to flow to the next component. If pilot goes out via wind, boil over, etc. then thermocouple cools and shuts gas valve so you don't go BOOM.
Gas Solenoid valve (STC or ASCO or other
This is a normally closed solenoid valve that is controlled via a switch. No different than a toggle switch. But in this case we use the Love Switch that is controlled via a temperature setting. The Loves are technically a switch. I know they are referred to as a controller. But they don't control anything. They simply open or close a circuit based on parameters set to monitor temperature, its a automated switch. Temp gets too low...the 'switch' make contact, closes the circuit which opens the valve allowing gas to flow to burner which in turn is ignited by the pilot light..VWOOOOF !!! Flame On !!

The solenoid valve is wired to your control panel and a toggle switch that controls master power to the swtich. You dont NEED to do it this way, but I like to turn off the power to the solenoid valve and still be able to use the LOVE switch to monitor temps.


Hope that helps...
 
that helps alot. pictures are worth a thousand words. no time to get the parts together. thanks
 
I was looking at the H15 series just because its available in 1/2 in.
 
MNBugeater said:
"Need" is the operative word here, but since we are talking about automation, then the two main options that have been discussed and are commonly used are: Pilot light w/ safety shut value OR Electronic ignition (spark)

BurnerValveAssembly.jpg


In my assembly above (standing pilot) the components are as follows from bottom up:

BASO Pilot Safety valve
- 2 peripheral connections are the thermocouple (copper lead) and the pilot light gas feed (aluminum tubing). Thermocouple sits in the pilot light and heats up. If flame is ON, then thermocouple is hot and opens valve providing gas to flow to the next component. If pilot goes out via wind, boil over, etc. then thermocouple cools and shuts gas valve so you don't go BOOM.
Gas Solenoid valve (STC or ASCO or other
This is a normally closed solenoid valve that is controlled via a switch. No different than a toggle switch. But in this case we use the Love Switch that is controlled via a temperature setting. The Loves are technically a switch. I know they are referred to as a controller. But they don't control anything. They simply open or close a circuit based on parameters set to monitor temperature, its a automated switch. Temp gets too low...the 'switch' make contact, closes the circuit which opens the valve allowing gas to flow to burner which in turn is ignited by the pilot light..VWOOOOF !!! Flame On !!

The solenoid valve is wired to your control panel and a toggle switch that controls master power to the swtich. You dont NEED to do it this way, but I like to turn off the power to the solenoid valve and still be able to use the LOVE switch to monitor temps.


Hope that helps...
Click to expand...

and burner?do you have the part number's for these? part #'s of the pilot assembly?

thanks

dave
 
no, it will probally be a couple of weeks or so before i start buying all the items needed to make this happen. its going to add up quick
 
davefj40 said:
and burner?do you have the part number's for these? part #'s of the pilot assembly?

thanks

dave
Click to expand...

DISCLAIMER : I am an not a gas expert. I am not an electrician. I make no claims of a fail safe setup. Build and Use as your own risk !

The burner is really irrelevant. I used the Banjo/Hurricane but any burner will work fine. Just position the pilot light to be directed over an orifice or two so the incoming gas gets lit right away so as to avoid a build up and flash ignition.

As far as the pilot assembly, alot of these are homemade which is fine as long as you position your safety valve thermocouple directly in the flame for safety. I used a Honeywell assembly that had the pilot orifice and thermocouple housing all in one. The thermocouples are usually sold separately.

These appear to be the part numbers everyone is PMing me about so Ill put them here, but really it doesn't matter. There are several varieties available.

Pilot Thermocouple - Honeywell Q340A1108
Pilot Burner - Honeywell Q314A4586
Solenoid Valve - STC 2W160-10
Pilot Safety Valve - BASO H19AL-1

My valves are 3/8". If you are using or want 1/2" the part numbers are slightly different.
 
so is LP propane less then 10#? is that what you buy the regulator on morebeer to convert the grill tank's down to pressure you can use these valve's for?

dave
 
Why can't you just use a LP furnace valve that handles higher pressures? Seems a lot simpler to me if you have the valve and pilot and safety controller all in one module.
 
there are dual pilot valves that have the gas valve and pilot valve in one but they are LP or NG, i don't know if they can handle 10-20# that a standard grill tank has. if you look at morebeer's site it say's LP propane is for the huge tank's that feed a house. so that's what i'm wondering about a different regulator that has to be used.

i can buy all this stuff at wholesale but i don't really use it that much so i'm not sure what to get.
 
There are 2 types of regulators for LP systems, the high pressure type (10 - 30 PSI) found on the turkey fryer setups, and the low pressure type (11" wc /.4 PSI) found on BBq's, propane appliances, RV's. The automatic gas valves for heating applications are usually deisgned for 1/2 psi or less and if more than that is applied they usually refuse to open to prevent nasty and noisy suprises if the upstream regulator fails. This is why when you want to use the high pressure burners and want a safety system it usually is cheaper to go the electric ignition route as a suitable high pressure pilot safety valve is around $200 new. When you look for a regulator you need to add up the btu's of the burners that will be in operation at the same time and purchase a regulator able to deliver the same BTU's or greater. You could buy one larger regulator and build a low pressure manifold, or buy individual regulators for each burner and use a 10 psi regulator and manifold to feed the individual regulators.
 
i'm starting from scratch so that's why i'm trying to figure out what to buy. i want to up LP with a standard 20# tank and i'm trying to figure out what to buy. i know you can find the dual pilot valve's on ebay for around 40-70 dollar's which is no problem. just trying to figure out the regulator/burner setup that goes with those valves.

thanks everybody for all the help so far, the automated side is the easy part as i do automated building's for a living.

dave
 
Look at the various systems built with the Banjo/Hurricane burners, these seem to be the best for turn down and can be jetted for either high or low pressure feed. As to a regulator add up the btu ratings on the burners that will operate at the same time and look for a 2 stage low pressure regulator with equal or higher rating. You might be able to find one at a RV parts house locally or shop on line if not in a hurry. Check out MnBugeaters system as that and others have already done the hard work of finding and fitting the necessary parts for an automated system.
Which of product lines do you work with for building automation, my field is primarily industrial automation calibration and installation with occasional building control equipment installation.
 
right now i'm working with Automated Logic but have worked with Alerton, Andover, Johnson and Honeywell. with KMC and Delta thrown in here and there. really liking the Automated product though.

thanks for the help, will search for the stuff you suggested.

dave
 
I don't believe the H15 valves are meant for high pressure. It seems the H19 Valves are VERY difficult to find unless you wanna pay 100+. I'm trying to decide what I'm going to do now...
 
Been researching on this thread and had a question... I've got 3/4" black pipe feed two burners. So the tee that comes off for the HLT is 3/4" so I was thinking of getting this valve:

STC 2 way N.C. 3/4" solenoid valve air or water - eBay (item 300314500663 end time Sep-08-09 18:48:51 PDT)

But the propane line that will feed the burner from the other side of the valve appears to be 1/2 or 5/8. (I bought this system used and it was missing a few parts) Does it matter if I get 3/4 or 1/2 valve? I can just reduce it down before or after the valve and it will have no effect on the burner? Thanks!
 
Has anyone experienced fire getting inside of the solenoid valve? That's what seems to be happening on my company's product, which, unfortunately, isn't beer related, although it is solenoid valve and propane related. Without going into too much detail, my company's product is like a potato gun, so there's no pilot light. Would a check valve work to prevent fire from creeping back into the solenoid valve body? Could the solenoid potentially ignite any propane and air that might be trapped in the body? I realize that I could be getting off topic here, but hopefully the answers to these questions are relevant to the thread.
 
A check valve is one approach to keeping the fire out, what size, pressure, fuel/air ratio are we talking about here. If it is high pressure a check valve is needed, if low pressure then a flame arrester downstream of the solenoid will keep ignition from transfering upstream to the solenoid body. Is this a rapidly repeated process or an occasional process?, heat buildup on a flame arresting devices might be a problem if it cycles rapidly.
 
kladue said:
A check valve is one approach to keeping the fire out, what size, pressure, fuel/air ratio are we talking about here. If it is high pressure a check valve is needed, if low pressure then a flame arrester downstream of the solenoid will keep ignition from transfering upstream to the solenoid body. Is this a rapidly repeated process or an occasional process?, heat buildup on a flame arresting devices might be a problem if it cycles rapidly.
Click to expand...
It's a low pressure process that repeats about twice a minute: a propane and oxygen mixture passes through the open valve, a check valve, a length of tube, and then another check valve, into a combustion chamber. The valve then closes and a spark plug in the chamber ignites the mixture. The valve opens again but this time shop air passes through to purge the system followed by the propane-oxygen mix, beginning the process again.

We've had a couple incidents in the field of the solenoid valve burning out. That is, the seals in the valve body are disintegrated, covering everything in there with soot. I will look into flame arresting devices, but I'm really curious to know if any one has experienced similar solenoid valve failures while working with flammable stuff like propane.
 
Sounds like an interesting process but valving mixed fuel/air is going to lead to the kind of problems you have. A flame arrester downstream of the mixed gas solenoid should keep combustion from happening in solenoid body. A different approach would be to seperate fuel and oxidizers and inject them into the mixing/delivery tube. If you want it simple then continous purge with air and inject measured amount of gas for combution events, with fuel only in fuel solenoid it will not ignite in body.
 
MNBugeater said:
DISCLAIMER : I am an not a gas expert. I am not an electrician. I make no claims of a fail safe setup. Build and Use as your own risk !

The burner is really irrelevant. I used the Banjo/Hurricane but any burner will work fine. Just position the pilot light to be directed over an orifice or two so the incoming gas gets lit right away so as to avoid a build up and flash ignition.

As far as the pilot assembly, alot of these are homemade which is fine as long as you position your safety valve thermocouple directly in the flame for safety. I used a Honeywell assembly that had the pilot orifice and thermocouple housing all in one. The thermocouples are usually sold separately.

These appear to be the part numbers everyone is PMing me about so Ill put them here, but really it doesn't matter. There are several varieties available.

Pilot Thermocouple - Honeywell Q340A1108
Pilot Burner - Honeywell Q314A4586
Solenoid Valve - STC 2W160-10
Pilot Safety Valve - BASO H19AL-1

My valves are 3/8". If you are using or want 1/2" the part numbers are slightly different.
Click to expand...

So I take it by looking at your solenoid that you're running low pressure LP? I've been doing some research on automating the HERMS process and this is the best setup I've seen. Originally I wanted to go with high pressure (~20 PSI) but it appears that if I wish to fully automate in the future, low pressure will be more cost effective as far as the solenoids/valves are concerned.

I know you've said the burners are irrelevant, but which ones are you running? I was looking into the 10" hurricane burners and running the system at 11" WC, which should allow the solenoid to function properly.

The other question I had was whether you've placed a regulator on the pilot supply or if this is unnecessary due to the low pressure nature of the system.
 
The honeywell standing pilot furnace valves are the least expensive method for low pressure burner automation. The furnace valve, pilot burner and thermocouple should be under $80 combined, gas orifice for banjo or hurricane just needs to be drilled out to 3/32" opening size for 11" wc propane.
 
Thanks for sharing your knowledge. I'll have to find a tutorial on drilling out the gas orifice, but it looks like the furnace valves will be what I go with. One last question: most of the valves I've seen run on 24V, which will be no problem with a step down transformer. My question is, are there any compatibility issues with the Love controllers or are you guys just running the 24V through the relay on them?
 

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