Why is my beer sour?

Okay guys. Thanks in advance for any help you offer. It's much appreciated.

I'm still a beginner at this, but I do have 8 extract brews under my belt. But I have noticed a trend with all of my beers to this point. All of them develop a sour kind of taste in the bottles. It's probably there prior to bottling, but for whatever reason it really comes out after being conditioned for a while in bottles.

All have been kits bought from either Midwest or NB. I use liquid yeast with a starter. I am pretty meticulous about sanitation. I have a 5 gallon container of Star San solution mixed with distilled water. I usually just reuse this for sanitation. I have a chest freezer for temperature control and keep fermentation temps at about 68 for ales. I have used several different fermentation vessels and all of them have produced a pungent beer regardless of style.

The one exception to this was an IPA I did. I didn't notice it as much. I think the hoppy profile either covered it or perhaps the hop oils from dry hopping protected it from any infection.

I want to transition to all grain, but before I do so is like to figure out where my process is wrong.

One thing that has come to mind. I don't aerate very well. I usually just pour in the yeast after some shaking of the fermenter. Could that be a big problem?

A couple things come to mind (and I'm no expert, so take this all with a grain or two of salt) -- sanitation is the first thing. Are you cleaning all your fermentation equipment and bottles, etc AND sanitizing well? Use something like PBW (others on here say Oxiclean Free is just as good...don't know myself) to clean everything THOROUGHLY using water as hot as you can get (short of boiling.) Then RINSE thoroughly and then use StarSan or something like that in the proper concentration to sanitize everything.
Are you using buckets, glass carboys or Better Bottles to ferment in? If you're using buckets, you may want to toss those and get new ones.
Also, try dropping your temp a bit -- low 60's seems to be the "preferred" temp for yeast.
Finally, make a starter for your liquid yeast. If you're using dry yeast, make sure you rehydrate it first.
Above all do whatever a REAL experienced brewer tells you. I'm not much more experienced than you.

Sour usually means infection. If you don't taste a sourness until after it's bottled then maybe you are picking up a contamination during your bottling process. Are all of your bottled beers in a given batch sour? Or just some of them?

I clean everything pretty well (I think). I use OxyClean or PBW - whatever I have on hand. I rinse everything well, too. I honestly think that my cleaning isn't an issue. It's been an issue with my beers ever since my first batch with new equipment. It's not over powering but it's there.

The last beer I did was a Bock and I layered it for 5 weeks after fermentation. It finished out sweeter than I would have like, but now since it's been in bottles for a month is honestly can't even drink it. It is just bad.

Could my bottling bucket be a culprit? Like I said, I do everything by the book so I have no idea.

As for the bottles, I sanitize them with a vitinator and then let them drip dry on a bottle tree. I also cleaned them prior to my last two beers with an overnight OxyClean soak. I'm befuddled.

It's all of the bottles...some seem worse than others.

OKCAg2002 said:

I clean everything pretty well (I think). I use OxyClean or PBW - whatever I have on hand. I rinse everything well, too. I honestly think that my cleaning isn't an issue. It's been an issue with my beers ever since my first batch with new equipment. It's not over powering but it's there.

The last beer I did was a Bock and I layered it for 5 weeks after fermentation. It finished out sweeter than I would have like, but now since it's been in bottles for a month is honestly can't even drink it. It is just bad.

Could my bottling bucket be a culprit? Like I said, I do everything by the book so I have no idea.

As for the bottles, I sanitize them with a vitinator and then let them drip dry on a bottle tree. I also cleaned them prior to my last two beers with an overnight OxyClean soak. I'm befuddled.

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Yeah, probably your bottling bucket would be a good starting point. Either toss it or maybe soak it well with StarSan or dilute bleach solution. Might just be easier to chuck it and get a new one.

I checked the spigot last night and it looked clean and clear of debris. The bucket looked fine as well. I might try to bypass the bottling bucket next batch and bottle a flat beer just to experiment.

Be sure to disassemble the valve on your bottling bucket and clean it really well...like boil it.

OKCAg2002 said:

I have a 5 gallon container of Star San solution mixed with distilled water. I usually just reuse this for sanitation

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How old is this sanitizer that you keep reusing?

kako187 said:

How old is this sanitizer that you keep reusing?

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It is probably a few months old. I keep it in the pantry. Should I just chuck it? It's not cloudy and it still foams up.

helibrewer said:

Be sure to disassemble the valve on your bottling bucket and clean it really well...like boil it.

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Excellent point.

Most of those spigots consist of 2 barrels that rotate within each other. One has the nut, the other the small tap. That assembly should and can be pulled apart after a 30 second soak in very hot water, then thoroughly scrubbed and sanitized. Reassemble wet. Pay attention to the nut, little tap, and the rubber washer too.

OKCAg2002 said:

It is probably a few months old. I keep it in the pantry. Should I just chuck it? It's not cloudy and it still foams up.

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As long as your ratio was correct when you mixed it, and the PH is still < 3.5 it should be good actually. I would chuck it if it has any particles floating around in it though.

I'll check the pH of the Star San solution. And as far as cleaning the bottling spigot - I have never done what you guys mentioned. I will try that. Will the plastic melt in boiling water?

Also I've always used tap water for the boil and then topped off with spring water. Would that contribute to off flavors like sour beer?

OKCAg2002 said:

Also I've always used tap water for the boil and then topped off with spring water. Would that contribute to off flavors like sour beer?

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Do you have sour water?

I would lean more toward fermentation temps 68 degree ambient air temp is probably 75-76 fermentation temp in the bucket. I hated my first 2 batches of beer. After lowering ferm temps to low 60's and doing full boils, they went from bad to awesome! The difference is just incredible.

No. Not at all. I live in Edmond, OK and the water is sourced from a few local an made lakes. I drink it from the tap and I think it tastes fine.

kako187 said:

I would lean more toward fermentation temps 68 degree ambient air temp is probably 75-76 fermentation temp in the bucket. I hated my first 2 batches of beer. After lowering ferm temps to low 60's and doing full boils, they went from bad to awesome! The difference is just incredible.

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I put a temp probe on the side of the fermenter and then cover it with a paper towel. Theoretically I'm reading the temp of the fermenter and not the ambient temp of the freezer. Perhaps my temperature is not as accurate? I made a hefeweizen about six months ago. I started it in the freezer and then brought it inside. I guess it was not done fermenting because I got some more activity in he he airlock. The house was about 72. The beer was drinkable but waaaay too banana like even for a hefeweizen. Perhaps I'll lower the temp in the freezer for my next batch and see what happens.

OKCAg2002 said:

I put a temp probe on the side of the fermenter and then cover it with a paper towel. Theoretically I'm reading the temp of the fermenter and not the ambient temp of the freezer. Perhaps my temperature is not as accurate? I made a hefeweizen about six months ago. I started it in the freezer and then brought it inside. I guess it was not done fermenting because I got some more activity in he he airlock. The house was about 72. The beer was drinkable but waaaay too banana like even for a hefeweizen. Perhaps I'll lower the temp in the freezer for my next batch and see what happens.

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If you have some bubble wrap, I've read you can put the temp probe up against the carboy and then tape some bubble wrap over it to help insulate it from the ambient temp. I would definitely try setting your freezer down to about 60 or high-50's.

I'll definitely try the bubble wrap and dropping temps. It couldn't hurt.

OKCAg2002 said:

I'll check the pH of the Star San solution. And as far as cleaning the bottling spigot - I have never done what you guys mentioned. I will try that. Will the plastic melt in boiling water?

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After a few month it may be wise to make a fresh Starsan solution, for all security. Dumping or dropping something in there like dirty hoses or bottles may contaminate it. Something alkaline (clinging PBW/Oxiclean/washing soda) will change the pH quickly. It doesn't have much buffer capacity. And it isn't designed for that, it expects already clean items. Clean clinging water is fine.

I never boiled the spigot parts very long, maybe 10 minutes in PBW. I also put a good brush on it and a small tube/bottle brush in it. Once I found a black scum between the 2 barrels after a few bottling sessions, and that tipped me off to take it apart a bit further. It's impossible to take the 2 barrels apart cold, it needs to be heated in some very hot water and you can pop it loose.

You'll end up with 5 pieces, the 2 barrels, the little (red, blue, or white) tap, the nut and rubber washer. That washer is rubber and can hold onto scum and mold too, and there are hidden areas inside all the pieces and threads. A sanitation nightmare, really.

You can always buy a new one but I've been successful keeping it clean and sanitized by taking it apart after using it. I keep a few inches of Starsan in my bottling bucket when stored, with a lid on it.

Inspect you bottling bucket too, it maybe scratched. It's a process of elimination, and something can end up elsewhere.

I'll do that. Good advice. But why has my beer tasted like this since my very first batch?

A few more things...

Do you use a bottle brush to scrub the insides of the bottles? I hope the labels have been removed too, so you're dealing with glass only. Glass is easy to clean with the right detergent, tools and methods.

I have one of those jet spray bottle washers that mounts to the faucet with a garden hose adapter. After washing well by scrubbing inside and out (I use homemade PBW or washing soda) I give them a thorough rinse followed by hot water on the jet sprayer. Then let them dry before storing away.

You are using Starsan in your vinator, right before bottling, yes?

I don't believe dishwashers clean or sanitize bottles well at all, definitely not on the inside.

Are your racking canes, hoses, siphons, bottling wand (that tippy comes off and needs to be cleaned too) clean?

IslandLizard said:

A few more things...

Do you use a bottle brush to scrub the insides of the bottles? I hope the labels have been removed too, so you're dealing with glass only. Glass is easy to clean with the right detergent, tools and methods.

I have one of those jet spray bottle washers that mounts to the faucet with a garden hose adapter. After washing well by scrubbing inside and out (I use homemade PBW or washing soda) I give them a thorough rinse followed by hot water on the jet sprayer. Then let them dry before storing away.

You are using Starsan in your vinator, right before bottling, yes?

I don't believe dishwashers clean or sanitize bottles well at all, definitely not on the inside.

Are your racking canes, hoses, siphons, bottling wand (that tippy comes off and needs to be cleaned too) clean?

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Yeah. I scrub the inside and the labels have been removed as well. Most of my bottles I bought new online so they didn't even have labels. I like the idea of washing them with some PBW. I might switch to that instead of oxiclean since it's more stubborn to get off of glass. Yup. I'm using starsan in the vinator and doing it right before bottling. All of the hoses, auto siphon, etc. seem clean to me. Every time I use them I let them soak in oxiclean overnight and give them a thorough rinse.

Do you think I should invest in something for oxygenation for the wort? I wonder if that would kick start the yeast and help it be healthier. I'll have to pay more attention when I taste my samples before bottling. It seems like bottling really brings out this flavor, though. It could already be present and just not as strong.

My last two batches was a bock and a fat tire clone. Both share this off flavor. Are they similar yeast strains? One was WLP833 German Bock Yeast and the other was Wyeast 1762 Belgian Abbey 2.

Are you sanitizing your hoses, autosiphons, etc or just washing? EVERYTHING that touches the wort after it's been boiled needs to be sanitized.

Yes. I let them soak in StarSan and then I usually siphon StarSan from the bottling bucket into my 5 gallon jug where I store it. I would think they are very clean and sanitized.

Thanks for the feedback, guys. It's much appreciated. I'm not ready to give up yet but it's a little discouraging.

OKCAg2002 said:

Yes. I let them soak in StarSan and then I usually siphon StarSan from the bottling bucket into my 5 gallon jug where I store it. I would think they are very clean and sanitized.

Thanks for the feedback, guys. It's much appreciated. I'm not ready to give up yet but it's a little discouraging.

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OK. You didn't say you sanitized the autosiphon, etc, so I was just making sure. At this point, I'm leaning towards your bottling bucket may be infected and passing that along to your finished beer. Do you have the ability to keg? If so, try that and see if the problem continues. That way you can rule in/out your bottling bucket.

No. Unfortunately just bottles. I don't see any scratches in the bottling bucket. I'll try giving the spigot a thorough cleaning and see if that helps. I also might try to siphon some beer in a bottle directly from the fermenter and see if it still goes sour. It would be flat, but it could narrow it down.

OKCAg2002 said:

[...]Do you think I should invest in something for oxygenation for the wort? I wonder if that would kick start the yeast and help it be healthier. I'll have to pay more attention when I taste my samples before bottling. It seems like bottling really brings out this flavor, though. It could already be present and just not as strong.[...]

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Are you pitching one vial of White Labs yeast in 5 gallons? No starters? We'll address that later...
[EDIT] OK, I just reread your initial post and you do make starters. Good!

Although oxygen is important when innoculating beer, it can hardly be responsible for a soured taste later. Pitching the right amount of yeast and aerating/oxygenating at pitching time are roads to a healthy fermentation with fewer off tastes, however subtle they can be at times.

Just to make sure we're still on the same page, the flat beer before bottling tastes alright but your bottled beer becomes sour or undrinkable and more so over time?

OKCAg2002 said:

[...]My last two batches was a bock and a fat tire clone. Both share this off flavor. Are they similar yeast strains? One was WLP833 German Bock Yeast and the other was Wyeast 1762 Belgian Abbey 2.

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Those 2 are very different yeast strains. The Bock is a lager yeast and the Abbey a nice estery Belgian Ale one. They have different optimal fermentation temperatures, and handling requirements. They are almost as far apart as yeasts can get.

The most curious part is where you said that the souring or off tastes in the bottles have been there right from the beginning, in 8 batches already. That's very unusual as infections tend to creep in over time.

I have always done a starter with a two cups water, 1/2 cup DME wort. I will pour that starter directly into the wort when it's cooled.

Yeah - I know it's really strange. I am almost certain that it comes out through my bottling process. Either that, or the bug is present before hand and for whatever reason shows up in the flavor after bottling.

So, yes - to answer your question it seems fine before bottling.

Would the bottle conditioning reveal an infection that is already present in the beer? I ferment at a lower temp than my house. I will store the bottled beer in a closet and it'll be around 70.

In line with the possible infection source, I've read in some posts here that a stir bar (if you use one) may be harboring some bugs - any cracks or nicks could be a problem.

Otherwise, I'd replace the buckets and the tubing, including auto siphon and bottling wand, if you determine it's an ongoing infection.

Are you getting anything like a pellicle in your fermenter?

No. My fermentation always looks healthy. Nothing like that.

I have an idea. If you have any friends who brew, go over their house on a day that they are siphon some brew into your brewing bucket (that was made with all their equipment). Thus way, you'll really know if your bottling bucket is the culprit.

The alternative option is to do the vise versa....your beer, they're bottling bucket

OKCAg2002 said:

I have always done a starter with a two cups water, 1/2 cup DME wort. I will pour that starter directly into the wort when it's cooled.

Yeah - I know it's really strange. I am almost certain that it comes out through my bottling process. Either that, or the bug is present before hand and for whatever reason shows up in the flavor after bottling.

So, yes - to answer your question it seems fine before bottling.

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That's a very strong starter. Typically they are made at a gravity between 1.030 and 1.040.
1 part of DME in 10 parts of water, e.g., 100gr DME in 1000ml water (1 : 10). Yours is almost double that. 72gr/473ml water = 1 : 6.5. I think How to Brew uses that ratio.

I just opened the two styles to see if I could describe the flavor. It's just pungent and sour. It's not something that I want to drink.

I wonder if the water from the city of Edmond is causing some off flavors. I think I will just pitch out the tubing (needs to be replaced anyways) and give the he spigot a good cleaning. I'll just mix up fresh batches of StarSan here on out. How many gallons do you guys do for a batch of beer? Five gallons? Guess I'm just trying to save a few bucks but it's costing me more in the long run. I'm going of I give the bottling bucket a bleach soak and inspect it thoroughly. All of my bottles are going to get a long soak in PBW. Anything else I'm missing?

I thought about taking a sample to my LHBS and see if they can ID the bacteria strain. Is that common? Can they drink some of my beer?

IslandLizard said:

That's a very strong starter. Typically they are made at a gravity between 1.030 and 1.040. 1 part of DME in 10 parts of water, 100gr DME in 1000ml water (1 : 10). Yours is almost double that. 72gr/473ml water = 1 : 6.5. I think How to Brew still has that ratio.

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Gotcha! That might help. Ill scale up the water next ignite.

You know what? My tubing is pretty cloudy. Could that be a source of contamination?

Do you have the tubing submerged in Starsan all the time? I do and it gets almost opaque white. When I dry it it gets clear again.

Tubing is hard to clean and worse once it's dirty. I have long brushes and I also send a wad of fabric with cleaner down on a fishing line... back and forth.
The best way is to clean tubing right away. Rinse out with hot water, soak in some PBW, rinse well again, then in a bucket with Starsan. Then there may still be some residue stuck on the inside...

So yes, hoses, racking canes and siphons could be a potential source of bugs. But you had the problem from the first brew already, and that makes little sense, 'cause all your equipment was new then. I still suspect the bottling process.

It is possible something gets into your starters and takes over after the yeast is done, like Lacto, Pedio, or Acetobacter. Brett is slow acting and would take much longer to show its presence, and is not sour, more funky. Is there any scum or pellicle in the necks of the bottles, particularly the older ones? Or a pellicle/haze in your fermentor after a few weeks?

Nope. I looked really closely and there wasn't any signs of infection in bottles.

It's possible I'm doing my starters wrong. But my first beer I used dry yeast and rehydrated it. Thus, no starter. Same odd flavor.

I'll say this. My bock that I did finished out at 1.019 so it was pretty sweet tasting out of the fermenter anyways. It could just be a bad tasting beer after it's conditioned. The fat tire clone may have been bottled a week early. Perhaps I just screwed them up.

I brewed a brown ale prior, and it actually tasted pretty good. Same process. I also did an IPA and I couldn't detect the sour flavor.

Someone in another thread suggested that I might just have a sensitive palate to the proverbial extract twang. I guess that is possible, but the extract I use is from reputable sellers and should be fresh. It could be some of that, but I'm not completely sold that this is my issue.

My suspicion is that my sanitation in bottling is suspect and I need to be more thorough there. Thanks so much for your help, though!