Pitch Rate, let's talk yeast

Homebrew Talk - Beer, Wine, Mead, & Cider Brewing Discussion Forum

Help Support Homebrew Talk - Beer, Wine, Mead, & Cider Brewing Discussion Forum:

This site may earn a commission from merchant affiliate links, including eBay, Amazon, and others.

jmo88

Well-Known Member
Joined
Sep 17, 2008
Messages
1,374
Reaction score
31
Location
Seattle
After reading various threads, I came across the discussion of pitch rate. Many experienced brewers recommend more than what typically comes in a yeast pack. I've also read that many commercial breweries use four times as much yeast than homebrewers do. This is new to me. I've always thought if I hit the final gravity, all is well. But others are saying that you may hit the FG, but your yeasts will be stressed if there isn't enough of them, resulting in beer that could have tasted better.

So, can we discuss yeast techniques? If using Wyeast or White Labs how much do you pitch for various gravities or styles? Are your experiences different for dry packs? Have you ever used too much yeast? Is there a danger in a high pitch rate?
 
I'm going to be testing the theory by brewing a mild...inspired by the 10der and mild thread...and pitching 2 packs of yeast...I will also be re-brewing a few tried and true Kanuna Recipes....and using a TON of yeast...at least 4x what I've done in the past.

I think that it is true that we significantly under-pitch!
 
I am curious to hear how it turns out for you. Should I be skeptical of a high pitch rate? It seems to me there might be some adverse effects to having a huge amount of unused yeasts swimming around in your beer.
 
If you do it with dry yeast its one thing. If you do it with a huge starter than you run the risk of changing the flavor of the beer with too much starter. Yes?
 
I use Mr Malty to determine how much I pitch. Since I wash and harvest my yeast I usually make a 1L starter. If I brew something big then I might step it up.

I'd also be interested to see how that experiment goes. I hear its very hard to overpitch on a homebrew level but I'd like to see how a beer changes when more a more than necessary amount of yeast is used. I assume its just going ferment real fast and have a cleaner flavor with less character.
 
when you use a starter your dumping off most of the wort/beer from the fermentation and pitching the slurry at the bottom, the same basic effect of pitching onto a yeast cake from a prior batch.


i always just used the tube/pack if my wort starts under 1.040 any higher and i use starters of various sizes
 
I think your going to be hard pressed to pitch too much yeast. Maybe a 2.5 gallon starter per 12 gallon batch might be a tad too much but other than that. pitch like a mad man, and god willing you can ferment out in 3-4 days! (like the big dogs do) You have to remember some breweries have a 12 day turn around time. 12 freeken days!!! How would you like to turn your beers in 12 days? You can.... w/ a HUGE starter and a DE filter.
JJ
 
I brewed a cream ale a few weeks ago, kegged it yesterday, and brewed Ed's IPA yesterday. The cream ale used us-05, and ed's is supposed to also, and since I cold crashed I had REALLY dense, thick, sludgy yeast. I saved a bunch in a measuring cup in the fridge for the afternoon, poured off what I could, then used mr malty's reccomendation for pitching. I forget what it was in mL but it turned out to be 4 tablespoons of dense freshly harvested yeast. A strange thing happened though: the fermentation (while quite healthy) has been much slower to take off than when I just rehydrate a packet of us-05 and pitch into a lower gravity beer. I dunno if it's a good thing, bad thing, neither, or what caused it. Could be that I didn't aerate quite as thoroughly as usual or that I chilled all the way to fermentation temp instead of pitching a little above. Also could be that I pitched yeast that had been at 37F for a week instead of yeast that had been waking up in 85F water.
 
i love me some big pitching! i stopped by boulder beer the other day to have lunch with a buddy, enjoy a few beers, and pick up a half gallon mason jar of super thick 1056 yeast slurry. went home and brewed up a batch and pitched about half of the slurry. that amount is a pretty big over pitch, but the beer turned out great. the day after i racked that beer to 2ndary i pitched another batch onto the yeast cake and it fermented out fully in 24 hours. 1.056 to 1.011 in 24 hours! it was bubbling hard within 2 hours of pitching. i dont know what it would taste like if the beer was defected by over pitching but it tasted pretty good when it went into 2ndary yesterday.
 
I'm going to be testing the theory by brewing a mild...inspired by the 10der and mild thread...and pitching 2 packs of yeast...I will also be re-brewing a few tried and true Kanuna Recipes....and using a TON of yeast...at least 4x what I've done in the past.

I think that it is true that we significantly under-pitch!

I'll be interested to hear your results. I'm part of the 10der & Mild swap, and I pitched mine on top of a yeast cake from a previous brew, an English bitter. It certainly did finish out quickly and completely, but it is missing some of the characteristic flavors you get from English yeast. I fermented fairly cool, which would account for some of the cleanness, but I think the huge pitch of yeast kept them from producing some of the reproduction compounds/esters that are characteristic of the style.

Chad
 
The amount of yeast pitched is crucial to a quality ferment. Too little or too much, problems develop.

Overpitching prematurely saturates the wort with active cells, skipping the aerobic phase of the yeast life cycle. This significantly reduces ester formation, but more importantly results in few new cells; this causes unhealthy yeast and low viability for subsequent ferments. In other words, if you repitch that yeast, the next ferment(s) will be well short of optimal. Overpitching may also result in yeast bite, which flavor is particularly nasty.

Underpitching results in longer lag times, which present contamination possibilities; excessive ester production, due to an excessively long aerobic phase; underattenuation, due to simply not enough cells to do the work; and stuck fermentations. Underpitching is especially a danger because homebrewers tend to insufficiently aerate their wort; the yeast need to work twice as hard to simply multiply to saturation, and they will probably run out of oxygen before then. That means saturation is never reached, which means you rely on a relatively small amount of yeast to attenuate your sugars. Not good.

Instead of talking about underpitching and overpitching, let's cut to the chase and talk about the proper amount of yeast to pitch! :)

Ray Daniels, in Designing Great Beers, says that good brewing practice demands 10 million active cells per mL of wort for a wort of "normal" OG (say, 1.050). That approximates to 200 billion cells in five gallons. Jamil Z, on Mr Malty, gives the industry-standard rule of thumb: 1 million active cells per ml of wort per °Plato.* These both amount to the same number, practically speaking; have a look:

1 million x nml x °P = cells needed

1,000,000 x 20,000ml x 12°P = 240 billion cells

I know what you're saying - "Bob, you're a ding dong! Homebrewers don't work in °Plato!" To which I reply, "Zip it, sparky! You should be using °P, but you're a benighted heathen. Until you come to the light, convert °Plato to Specific Gravity by dividing by four. That'll get you close enough for this exercise, for beers below ~1.075 OG." Happy?

Now let's examine how these numbers apply to our breweries.

As I've written elsewhere, manufacturers of liquid brewing yeasts do not include sufficient active cells to meet the industry standard. But that's all right - commercial brewers have to build starters, too! Here's a breakdown of yeast types commonly available to homebrewers.

Dry: An 11g packet of dry yeast contains about the amount of required yeast - 20 billion cells per gram - so that doesn't need a starter; just rehydrate according to the instructions on the packet and pitch. If you're pitching into a big wort, dry yeast is inexpensive enough that you should purchase multiple packets. Dry yeast is nowhere near as susceptible to temperature extremes as liquid cultures, and can be stored longer before viability becomes an issue. Never make a starter with dry yeast; the manufacturer has engineered nutrients and reserves into the powder, and making a starter does nothing but deplete those reserves.

White Labs: A vial of White Labs yeast contains, optimally, 140 billion cells. Unfortunately, that number is no longer reliable once the yeast is packed for shipment. Once it's shipped to the homebrew store, it's been shipped once, potentially exposing it to temperature extremes. Check the manufacture date on the package carefully. Significantly, the numbers, even when the culture is new, still require a starter for proper pitching. Thus, it's wise to always make a starter for beers over about OG 1.037 when using White Labs yeasts, or buy two vials.

Wyeast: The "Activator" packs contain, according to Wyeast, "a minimum of 100 billion cells". What they really say is that each package contains 1.2 x 109 cells/ml. (That's 1.2 billion per milliliter, by the by). No matter how you slice it, even the Activator pack is insufficient to inoculate a wort stronger than about OG 1.026. The Propogator pack is even worse, with ~25 billion cells in a pristine pack.

By far the best method is to pitch fresh, healthy yeast from a previous fermentation. Now we get into yeast cakes, and I'm probably going to get under some brewers' skins. Let me struggle into my asbestos suit before continuing. [pause] There; got it.

Pitching onto yeast cakes is overpitching, and it's dangerous.

In the first place, it's infinitely more yeast than is necessary for healthy fermentation. See the above effects of overpitching. In the second, it's lazy. Harvest an appropriate amount of yeast, clean your fermenter, and stop cutting corners; you're simply not going to brew the best beer possible with that method.

Assuming the yeast in your cake is 80-90% viable, you can harvest a goodly portion of the slurry for repitching. Slurry at 85% viability may be assumed to contain ~1.5 billion active cells per ml. There are endless threads about yeast washing on HBT; use the "Search" function. But you don't really need to wash it - just use a sanitized implement to scoop out some yeast. Here's a tip, especially for you conical owners: Don't use the first or last yeast you get from your cone for repitching; use the stuff in the middle. The first layer is a mix of trub and yeast that flocculated prematurely; both useless to our cause. By the same token, the top layer consists of powdery yeast that settled last. Natural selection dictates that, if you pitch that yeast, subsequent ferments will take forever to clear. Ale Pail brewers can harvest yeast also, by carefully skimming the cake until fresh yeast is seen. No matter what sort of fermenter you've got, you're looking for tan or cream colored slime that smells like fresh yeast. Carboy users, you're screwed. I got nothin' for you, other than stirring with a sanitized implement and mixing it all up in order to dump it into another container. Maybe there's a technique for that here on HBT.

Given that we assume 80-90% viability and given a known OG, we can calculate - well, it's a SWAG, really** - how much slurry to pitch. The old commercial-brewery rule of thumb is one pound of slurry per barrel of wort. According to Daniels, that equates to a half-ounce by weight per gallon, or 2.5 ounces per five-gallon brew length - or - one fluid ounce per gallon. Our formula says that we need about 160ml of slurry for a OG 1048 brew; since 1 fluid oz = 30ml, we need - you guessed it - 5.33333 fluid oz of slurry! Interesting how that works out, isn't it? ;)

It isn't hard to properly pitch a wort of any given strength or size. All you need is a little bit of information and a calculator.

Cheers!

Bob

* I took the liberty of simplifying JZ's 0.75 million ales and 1.5 million lagers and split the difference. As long as we're talking about rules of thumb, I find it a decent compromise.
** SWAG = Scientific Wild A$s Guess
 
It would be really hard to overpitch. Breweries just pitch slurry from previous batches, they don't need to make starters. I read recently one of the Monks at Chimay or Duval use the same yeast for 45 generations before they make a new one!

I just make a 2 qt starter from a Wyeast activator which should yield according to Palmer, *226 billion cells; plenty for ales up to 1.070. Or for dry yeast 2 11.5g packs of Safale04 would be about *220 billion cells....I like having zero-6 hour lag times.

*I'm sure if I crunched these numbers they would be off but, it works for me.
 
Wow, Thanks for the detailed explanation and the SWAG:D , Bob. I am definitely going to continue to refer to that post.

The idea of reusing yeast only seems beneficial to me if I am going to repeat the same style, right? I'm always pitching fresh yeast, albeit not enough, but I'm also always switching styles from batch to batch. How long do you guys keep your slurry around for?
 
Wow, Thanks for the detailed explanation and the SWAG:D , Bob. I am definitely going to continue to refer to that post.

The idea of reusing yeast only seems beneficial to me if I am going to repeat the same style, right? I'm always pitching fresh yeast, albeit not enough, but I'm also always switching styles from batch to batch. How long do you guys keep your slurry around for?

My general rule on this is somewhat similar style, or, yeast from a smaller less intense beer can go to a bigger more intense beer. That US-05 from my cream ale, for instance, could be used in just about anything that you'd use us-05 for. A generation later, after it ferments my IPA, I might use it for another IPA, IIPA, or maybe an american barleywine, but I wouldn't put it in something lighter and malt forward.

I have no science to back this stuff up, it is just what my gut tells me. Dry yeast is cheap anyway, so if I think it's a good match I'll reuse, if not no big deal.
 
I also use JZ's pitch calculator. In fact, I use it almost religiously now.

I don't rehydrate Nottingham. This kind of spits in the face of what I do with liquid yeast and what I usually respond the yeast threads with but I have had Nottingham ferment out a 1.085 IIPA to 1.010 in 4 days with no apparent fusels or phenols. I always pitch it dry because it works for me. That doesn't mean that it will work for you.

I always make a 2 qt. starter for liquid yeast 48 hours before brewing for beers over 1.040, but lower than 1.080-ish. If I'm making a bigger beer than 1.080 I'll make a bigger starter or step it up. If I'm brewing something small (1.040 or lower) I feel that I can get away with pitching a WLP vial and be relatively close to a proper pitching rate.
 
Wow, Thanks for the detailed explanation and the SWAG:D , Bob. I am definitely going to continue to refer to that post.

Glad I could help!

The idea of reusing yeast only seems beneficial to me if I am going to repeat the same style, right?

Not necessarily. You can brew multiple styles with the same yeast; commercial breweries do this every day, and some homebrewers - like me - do so as well.

For example, in my last pro gig, I brewed a wide variety of styles. My ale yeast for everything but Belgians was White Labs Cal V. If I fermented it warm, it got fruity enough for English ales. If I fermented it cold, I got a clean West Coast ale. I fermented everything from Dry Irish Stout to Koelsch with Cal V, and it worked well enough that people raved about the beer (and kept paying for it!). :D I only ever used three other yeasts: Trappist High Gravity, Witbier, and Bavarian Hefeweizen (for obvious reasons).

These days I use Nottingham and Windsor almost exclusively. I only use something else for the rare Belgian style.

I'm always pitching fresh yeast, albeit not enough, but I'm also always switching styles from batch to batch. How long do you guys keep your slurry around for?

As long as you keep the slurry under beer, it'll keep a couple of weeks in the 'fridge. The actual length of time is dependent on too many variables to safely predict exactly: the viability of the harvested yeast, the strain, and the storage conditions are the big variables involved. As soon as you harvest it you start losing viability. Daniels gives a ballpark viability loss of 25% per week stored, even if the storage is under the best of conditions.

Rule of thumb: if you're repitching harvested yeast, pitch it less than seven days after harvesting for best results.

Bob
 
hmmmm....

you would think that maybe Bob has worked with yeast, or something...

holy crap that's yeast information overload! I'll stick with sprinkling some notty...

p.s. until my new refractometer comes in and then I need to learn plato!
 
hmmmm....

you would think that maybe Bob has worked with yeast, or something...

holy crap that's yeast information overload! I'll stick with sprinkling some notty...

Haha. I know. The guy is scary smart. But hey, it sounds like paying extra attention to your yeast is one of the key steps to perfecting your beer. Too many of us just sprinkle the notty, and probably not enough of it.

Alright, I'm convinced! Mr. Malty's calculator and a slurry spoon: Here I come!:fro:
 
Experienced? Guilty. Smart? Maybe not so much. But thanks for the props. :mug:

It never ceases to amaze me the brewers who will agonize over the benefits of Maris Otter vs Golden Promise, between Fuggles and Willamette, and which yeast is most authentic in Ruritanian Schwartzdoppelpivo, yet they'll just buy the yeast packet and dump it in. Boggles the mind, dunnit?

Yeast management is part of good brewing practice. Yeast management is more than buying a packet of yeast and dumping it in. You don't have to be set up for yeast washing and harvesting from conical fermenters. But you do need to have some idea about proper pitching procedure. That's this brewer's opinion, anyhow.

Cheers,

Bob
 
For years I've just bought two tubes of White Labs and not worried about it. That has worked well most of the time but after recently getting two 3+ day lags in a row I decided to start making starters. I brewed a dark mild last weekend and pitched it with a 2000ml Wyeast London Ale III starter. I made the starter the night before so it was about 16 hours along at time of pitching. Fermentation began in about 3 hours. It was so easy to do that I can't understand why I spent all that money over the years buying twice as much yeast when I could have just "grown my own".
 
Dry: An 11g packet of dry yeast contains about the amount of required yeast - 20 billion cells per gram - so that doesn't need a starter; just rehydrate according to the instructions on the packet and pitch. If you're pitching into a big wort, dry yeast is inexpensive enough that you should purchase multiple packets. Dry yeast is nowhere near as susceptible to temperature extremes as liquid cultures, and can be stored longer before viability becomes an issue. Never make a starter with dry yeast; the manufacturer has engineered nutrients and reserves into the powder, and making a starter does nothing but deplete those reserves.


Thank you for a great post

I'm curious to where you got the info about 20 billion cells per gram

Fermentis website for us05 says it has up to 10 billion cells per gram. For an 11.5 gram pack that equates to 115 billion yeast cells.
 
I'm curious about the yeast concentration for dry yeast as well. The nottingham data sheet actually says 5*10^9 cells per gram, so about 55 billion cells per 11 gram sachet.
 
Back
Top