My first partial - a few questions

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aidan

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Getting ready to do my first partial next weekend. Here's my initial attempt at coming up with a recipe (for an APA type beer):

Grains to mash:
2kg Gladfield Ale Malt
.25kg Crystal 60
.25kg Weyermann Carapils

DME (late addition):
2kg Light DME

Hops:
Simcoe: 10g @ 60min, 15g @ 30min, 25g @15min
NZ Cascade: 25g @ 0min, 25g dry hop

Yeast: US-05

QUESTIONS:
1. Can I comfortably mash 2.5kg (5.5 lbs) grains in 12L (3.2 gal) pot?
2. Is .25kg (.55lbs) Carapils about right?
3. Does that look like a good way to combine Simcoe & Cascade or any better suggestions? (I wanted to do Simcoe/Amarillo but brew shop don't have any Amarillo at the moment)
4. Would finings such as Irish moss or Koppafloc be necessary or advised?
5. Any other comments suggestions?


Cheers,
Aidan
 
I'll take a shot at these:

1. Even with a thin mash of 1.5qts/lb you'd only take up 2.5gals of space, so you should be fine with that pot. Mash with 2gals of water for that thickness, or less if you want it thicker (but thinner leads to better extraction, if I'm not mistaken). How are you going to sparge? Do you have another pot? Or are you just doing a single-infusion?

2. Carapils, C60, and base malt looks like a good balance. If I'm doing my math right you're around the equivalent of 5.3kg of base malt, or around 11.7lbs. Add to that the 0.5lb of each special and you're in APA territory for sure.

3. If you're more into aroma than bittering, your hops look good. 10g is not much for a bittering addition, but with the increasing late hops and the dry hopping you might be good. I just did a CDA with no early additions at all, everything at 15mins and FO. I'm a hop-head. If you do want a stronger and smoother bittering profile, look into first-wort hopping instead of a 60min addition. I'm a believer in that. I struck gold when I did a FWH with some late-addition hop bursting and a 2oz dry-hop on my last IPA. It's like nothing else, such a great balance. I'm going to try to duplicate it, but I'm almost afraid it was a fluke!

4. I used Irish moss in my second batch, and compared to my first it was very clear once it bottle conditioned. I was happy with it. Do .5 tsp with your 15-min hops. It was something like $2 for a baggie of it that will probably last 10 batches or more. I can't imagine a *floc tablet doing much better, but it would probably work as well if you have it on hand.

5. Have fun! Use the calculators at Green Bay Rackers and Brew365 to get your temps, mash thickness, etc. It's like Abe Lincoln said: "If I had eight hours to chop down a tree, I'd spend six hours sharpening my axe." :)
 
Thanks SilverZero for the detailed and useful answers!

I'll take a shot at these:

1. Even with a thin mash of 1.5qts/lb you'd only take up 2.5gals of space, so you should be fine with that pot. Mash with 2gals of water for that thickness, or less if you want it thicker (but thinner leads to better extraction, if I'm not mistaken). How are you going to sparge? Do you have another pot? Or are you just doing a single-infusion?
I was going to use another smaller pot (6L), but now I'm realising that may not be big enough to do a sparge. So now I'm thinking maybe I can just use it to heat the water and then sparge in a plastic fermentor vessel. I assume the sparge is just a matter of giving the grains a second soak with hot water. What temp and volume of water for sparge, is it same temp as for the mash? What about time, I'm guessing just a few mins?
2. Carapils, C60, and base malt looks like a good balance. If I'm doing my math right you're around the equivalent of 5.3kg of base malt, or around 11.7lbs. Add to that the 0.5lb of each special and you're in APA territory for sure.

3. If you're more into aroma than bittering, your hops look good. 10g is not much for a bittering addition, but with the increasing late hops and the dry hopping you might be good. I just did a CDA with no early additions at all, everything at 15mins and FO. I'm a hop-head. If you do want a stronger and smoother bittering profile, look into first-wort hopping instead of a 60min addition. I'm a believer in that. I struck gold when I did a FWH with some late-addition hop bursting and a 2oz dry-hop on my last IPA. It's like nothing else, such a great balance. I'm going to try to duplicate it, but I'm almost afraid it was a fluke!
In the calculator (BrewMate), overall IBUs come to 44. I started with 20g but IBUs were too high according to the style guideline indicator so I dropped to 10g. Simcoe is fairly high alpha hop.

When you did the brew with only hops at 15min and FO, does that mean you just did a 15min boil? (sounds like a great way to speed up the process if you can get good hops profile out of it!)

I've heard of first wort hopping but didn't realise it could be applied to a stove-top partial. How is it done in a partial such as this?
4. I used Irish moss in my second batch, and compared to my first it was very clear once it bottle conditioned. I was happy with it. Do .5 tsp with your 15-min hops. It was something like $2 for a baggie of it that will probably last 10 batches or more. I can't imagine a *floc tablet doing much better, but it would probably work as well if you have it on hand.
Ok, I'll try to get hold of one or the other of those. Are they pretty interchangable or is one preferable to the other in a partial such as this? When do you put it in?
5. Have fun! Use the calculators at Green Bay Rackers and Brew365 to get your temps, mash thickness, etc. It's like Abe Lincoln said: "If I had eight hours to chop down a tree, I'd spend six hours sharpening my axe." :)
Just looked at the Green Bay Rackers calc for first time. I've gathered from posts such as this that 65C (150F) is about what I'm shooting for with mash temp and I'll need about 7.5 L water for mashing 2.5kg grain. I assume ambient temp should be used for grain temp, let's say about 22C, so that puts my strike temp at 72C.
 
Sorry for the late reply, busy week. :)

I was going to use another smaller pot (6L), but now I'm realising that may not be big enough to do a sparge. So now I'm thinking maybe I can just use it to heat the water and then sparge in a plastic fermentor vessel. I assume the sparge is just a matter of giving the grains a second soak with hot water. What temp and volume of water for sparge, is it same temp as for the mash? What about time, I'm guessing just a few mins?

For sparge volume, you're eventually trying to get to your pre-boil volume (maybe 6-6.5 gallons?) so technically you have several gallons to work with, but I'd just sparge in whatever your largest "second" vessel is and then top off with good clean water (use a campden tablet if your water is really chlorinated). As long as you can get your grains submerged, you'll be okay. There is a GREAT sticky around here on that topic - search for "BIAB with pictures" or something, you'll find it. I sparge with 185F water, by the time it gets through the grain bed it's around 170F which is optimal for batching, in my opinion. It helps to loosen up and wash out the sugars. You're not really running much risk of extracting any tannins if you're just sparging for a few minutes, vs. fly sparging where you are running that risk if you get the grain bed above 170F.

In the calculator (BrewMate), overall IBUs come to 44. I started with 20g but IBUs were too high according to the style guideline indicator so I dropped to 10g. Simcoe is fairly high alpha hop.

When you did the brew with only hops at 15min and FO, does that mean you just did a 15min boil? (sounds like a great way to speed up the process if you can get good hops profile out of it!)

I've heard of first wort hopping but didn't realise it could be applied to a stove-top partial. How is it done in a partial such as this?

I do full 60 minute boils, but on the last batch I just didn't add any hops until the last 15 mins. I guess I didn't have to boil that long, now that I think about it. Oh well, I enjoy my brew days too much to cut corners. :) If you want to FWH, just drop the hops into the kettle after you pull out the grains, then add the sparge water to it to get up to your full kettle volume. The idea is that you start the acid extraction before you get to a boil, so it kind of eases the hops into the bath. I think, I'm honestly just guessing at this point.

Ok, I'll try to get hold of one or the other of those. Are they pretty interchangable or is one preferable to the other in a partial such as this? When do you put it in?

Whatever is cheaper. I've never used a floc tab, but Irish moss was very cheap so I went with it. Toss it in for the last 15 minutes of the boil.

Just looked at the Green Bay Rackers calc for first time. I've gathered from posts such as this that 65C (150F) is about what I'm shooting for with mash temp and I'll need about 7.5 L water for mashing 2.5kg grain. I assume ambient temp should be used for grain temp, let's say about 22C, so that puts my strike temp at 72C.

Sounds right. My strike water is always right around there, my grain temp I just call room temp (20C or so, depending on your home). Adjust as much as you can to get right around 65C-67C. That's the best mash temp, unless you're doing something special and want either lower or higher temps for a specific reason. If not, you're in flavor country.

Oi, I'm a science guy and all, but all this jumping back and forth from US to SI measurements is making my brain hurt. :) I prefer metric, but it's all gallons and Fahrenheit 'round these parts, so when in Rome. . . . :mug:
 
Sorry for the late reply, busy week. :)

Oi, I'm a science guy and all, but all this jumping back and forth from US to SI measurements is making my brain hurt. :) I prefer metric, but it's all gallons and Fahrenheit 'round these parts, so when in Rome. . . . :mug:

I think it is about time to put Metrication back on the table in the US.
It would take peoples minds off the economy plus you would not be as hot and you would drive faster.
 
Very helpful answers again SilverZero, you've filled in some gaps for me, thanks a mill!

el caro - cheers to that, the Americans need to catch up with the rest of us :mug:

If anyone has anything to add regarding my hops schedule, I'd be interested to hear as I pretty much just threw that together myself. I have 100g of simcoe sitting in the freezer for awhile. I started a thread about simcoe hops awhile ago to find out if they are better on their own or in combo with some other hops. A lot of people seem to like simcoe and amarillo but the place where I order my supplers doesn't have amarillo so I'm going with cascade. I read another opinion about it being preferable to use the different hops for different parts of the hops schedule instead of using them both at the same time, hence I went with simecoe for bittering and flavour and cascade for aroma. But if someone has experince of different ways of mixing the 2 of these hops I'd like to hear. I'm intrigued by the FWH addition suggested by SilverZero and may give that a try.
 
just a quick thing, but the green bay rackers have some great mash calculaters at green bay rackers--mash calculators for when you start doing this stuff on your own, including a total mash volume calculater

I'll say! In fact, I did! ;)

5. Have fun! Use the calculators at Green Bay Rackers and Brew365 to get your temps, mash thickness, etc. It's like Abe Lincoln said: "If I had eight hours to chop down a tree, I'd spend six hours sharpening my axe."

el caro - cheers to that, the Americans need to catch up with the rest of us

I'll allow that statement in the strict context of adopting the SI.

As to FWH, here's some info on the subject. You can also just Google "first wort hopping" to get more results.
 
As to FWH, here's some info on the subject. You can also just Google "first wort hopping" to get more results.

Just read that - very interesting. I think I'll give it a go. I opend up BrewMate and changed my 60 min addition to a FWH addition, it's upped the IBUs slightly. I'm wondering what to enter for time for this FWH addition? Is it the time from when the hops go in until flame out or time from hot break until flame out? If I replace my 60 min addition with FWH addition then I really only need a 30 min boil since my next addition is the 30min addition - is that right? Or do I still need a 60 min boil to get the propper hops contribution from the FWH addition?

And which hops would be best moved to FWH in a simcoe/cascade ale such as this - simcoe or cascade, or a bit of both? also a bit unsure of wheter to move early additions or late additions to FWH. It seems intuitive to move the eary additions but article says "Other sources recommend taking aromatic hops from the end of the boil and moving it forward to use as FWH" - seems like that would radically increase the bitterness and reduce aroma.
 
I've got my ingredients ready to go. I'll do a yeast starter tonight and brew her up tomorrow night. I've planned out and written up my process here: My Partial Mash Brewing Process
If anyone has any comments, suggestions regarding my process, let me know.
 
Good write up of your procedure.
Just a comment but you have not detailed how you will maintain mash temperature.
 
Good write up of your procedure.
Just a comment but you have not detailed how you will maintain mash temperature.
You're right, I was actually intending to wrap the pot in towels. Would that be enough to keep it maintained? I also could leave the hob on lowest setting to maintain a bit of heat under it. I cannot enclose my thermometer into the pot because its digital and taking lid off during mash would lead to cooling.
 
You're right, I was actually intending to wrap the pot in towels. Would that be enough to keep it maintained? I also could leave the hob on lowest setting to maintain a bit of heat under it. I cannot enclose my thermometer into the pot because its digital and taking lid off during mash would lead to cooling.

Some report that wrapping the pot in an old jacket or sleeping bag is sufficient.
Personally I do BIAB and like to stir my mash about every 15mins. I am fortunate to have a large oven which I preheat to around 250°F then turn off. My mash pot fits easily in the oven and I find the temperature varies less than 1 degree over a 60mins mash. I have also previously just sat it on the electric hotplate on almost the lowest setting(cake rack in bottom of pot to protect the bag) and that was equally effective.
 
Some report that wrapping the pot in an old jacket or sleeping bag is sufficient.
Personally I do BIAB and like to stir my mash about every 15mins. I am fortunate to have a large oven which I preheat to around 250°F then turn off. My mash pot fits easily in the oven and I find the temperature varies less than 1 degree over a 60mins mash. I have also previously just sat it on the electric hotplate on almost the lowest setting(cake rack in bottom of pot to protect the bag) and that was equally effective.
The oven sounds like a great way to keep the mash temp really even. But why not just set it to mash temp, 150F, and leave it there instead of pre-heating to 250F?
 
Speaking in physics terms, water has a high heat capacity, meaning it takes a lot of heat to raise the temperature. A 250F oven won't add much temp to that much water if any at all, but 150F air will take heat from the pot. Easier to open the oven if the mash does heat up a bit than to put it back on the burner if it goes low.
 
Speaking in physics terms, water has a high heat capacity, meaning it takes a lot of heat to raise the temperature. A 250F oven won't add much temp to that much water if any at all, but 150F air will take heat from the pot. Easier to open the oven if the mash does heat up a bit than to put it back on the burner if it goes low.

Well this must have saved my ass because I made a big metric-imperial units screw up and set my oven on 150C instead of 150F! That's 300F! I kept it in the oven at that temp for 50mins. Yet when I measured the temp at the end of mashing it was at 66 or 67C - just right where I wanted it! I can't understand how it didn't heat up and spoil my mash, but must have something to do with what you are saying. Your statement '150F air will take heat from the pot' must be true even though I can't get to grips with it just yet. But following on from that then there must be a calculation or rule of thumb for the air temp that will keep a pot of liquid at 150F.
 
but 150F air will take heat from the pot.

from what i could find, heat transfer only happens with things that have a temperature difference.

another thought. if the air took heat from the pot, then wouldn't the warmer air in turn heat the pot back up?

i'm not a scientist, you could definately be right, but that thought isn't logically pleasing. is there somewhere i can find this online?
 
from what i could find, heat transfer only happens with things that have a temperature difference.

another thought. if the air took heat from the pot, then wouldn't the warmer air in turn heat the pot back up?

i'm not a scientist, you could definately be right, but that thought isn't logically pleasing. is there somewhere i can find this online?

Well, eventually the air and the water and the pot will all be the same temperature (thermal equilibrium). Heat will travel from higher heat regions to lower heat regions, like you said, so if the air is lower than the water, it will travel from the water to the air, and eventually everything will end up in between (closer to the water starting temp). So in theory, setting your oven at 152 (or whatever your mash temp is) would keep everything right there.

But ovens aren't nearly that accurate. Even assuming you do actually have 150 degree air when the oven says it's there, it won't stay there when you open the door (it drops quite a bit if you don't leave the oven on for about 20 minutes after reaching temperature, to heat the body of the oven itself to hold some heat). Oven's also don't keep very even temperature, they get to a certain pre-set heat, then go off until the thermostat detects that the temp has fallen to a certain level, then kick back on and heat it back up, etc.

So maybe it doesn't take 250 degrees to keep your mash at 152 or whatever, maybe 200 would work, maybe even less. It all depends on your setup, really. It would certainly be better than just sitting on the stove in ambient 75F air, but really if you minimize the air space above the mash under the lid, the grains and water together will hold a lot of the heat without help.

I think I'm making myself out to be more of an expert than I am, so I'll just be quiet now. I say experiment, try it at 150F, try it at 200F, check the temp of the mash every 15-20 minutes. If it's dropping, your oven should be higher. If it's rising, lower. Real-world data will, strangely enough, trump all the physics in the world. :)
 
Real-world data will, strangely enough, trump all the physics in the world. :)

always works for me!

i can see the oven not being precise and all that. i just thought you were saying that if the two were the same temp. that for some reason the liquid would loose heat. it sounded like one of those things like "cold water will boil faster than hot water" .

:mug:
 
always works for me!

i can see the oven not being precise and all that. i just thought you were saying that if the two were the same temp. that for some reason the liquid would loose heat. it sounded like one of those things like "cold water will boil faster than hot water" .

:mug:

My mistake, poor wording. :)
 
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