Using 5.2 ph Stabilizer for sparge water?

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kal

kal

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Hi guys!

The 5.2 ph Stabilizer product specs say:

If you are doing all-grain you add it to your mash water - 1 tblsp per 5 gallon batch regardless of mash water volume. You do not need to add any extra to your Hot-Liqour tank or Boil Kettle.
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But what about those of us that slowly fly sparge with high pH water? My city's water is 9.3 pH and I'm worried that a slow fly sparge will (near the end) raise the pH of the mash and extract tannins. Surely there would be some benefit for me to reduce my sparge water to at least down to 7.0 pH no?

Or does the buffering ability of the 5.2 pH Stabilizer cause it to somehow make the mash immune to high pH sparge water?

Thanks!

Kal

P.S. Follow up question: Their instructions of "1 tbsp per 5 gallon batch" means that if you want to end up with 10 gallons of wort post-boil you'd add 2 tbsp to the mash right? Am I reading that right? Or is it the pre-boil volume? Or something else?
 
I use Ph 50.2, but only in the mash, not the sparge water. I fly sparge and have not had any astringency issues at all. I see your point though. You could easily bring the sparge water ph down with some acid if you wanted some peace of mind about it. Maybe email the Five Star people or give them a call and see what they say.

I don't think the dosage need be all that precise. I use 1 slightrly rounded tbs for a six gallon batch and 2 slightly rounded tbs for my twelve gallon batches figuring that's close enough. Seems to work just fine.

P.S. I just fired off an email to Five Star's tech support on this question. We should have an answer tomorrow morning I would think. I'll post back and let you know what they say.
 
Catt22 said:
I use Ph 50.2, but only in the mash, not the sparge water. I fly sparge and have not had any astringency issues at all. I see your point though. You could easily bring the sparge water ph down with some acid if you wanted some peace of mind about it. Maybe email the Five Star people or give them a call and see what they say.

I don't think the dosage need be all that precise. I use 1 slightrly rounded tbs for a six gallon batch and 2 slightly rounded tbs for my twelve gallon batches figuring that's close enough. Seems to work just fine.

P.S. I just fired off an email to Five Star's tech support on this question. We should have an answer tomorrow morning I would think. I'll post back and let you know what they say.
Click to expand...

I agree that the dosage probably isn't too critical, given that their product is supposed to lock in the pH regardless of what the starting pH is.

Thanks for sending off the email to them! We'll see what they say!

Kal
 
I talked to them a while ago on the subject. Bottom line, they say it's not necessary, but you won't hurt anything by doing it. :mug:
They like when people use it in the sparge, it sells more product.
 
Don't use it. I avoid it even for the mash. I don't know what's in it and don't like the idea of it in my beer. There are better ways to hit mash pH. Use TH's EZ water calculator. alkalinity of your sparge water ways much more heavily than pH does. The mashes grains have enough buffeting power to keep your sparge in check as long your alkalinity is in good range.
 
jmo88 said:
... alkalinity of your sparge water ways much more heavily than pH does. The mashes grains have enough buffeting power to keep your sparge in check as long your alkalinity is in good range.
Click to expand...

Thanks!

My city's water report is here (PDF format).

From what I can tell my numbers are:

Ca ppm: 8.9
S04 ppm: 27
Mg ppm: 2.2
Na ppm: 16
Cl ppm: 6.1
Alkalinity (CaCO3 ppm): 32.2

My understanding is that my alkalinity of 32.2 is fairly low correct? Meaning that even with a pH of 9.3 I'm not likely to extract tannins when slowly fly sparging, even with a very light grain bill.

My entire reason for bringing up this question is that I made a 17 IBU, 1.050 light lager a month ago (95% pilsner malt, 5% carafoam) and upon racking I could have sworn it tasted somewhat 'tannic'. It seems better now (2 weeks later) however so I think Im fine. I figured it was the higher pH of the sparge water after having crossed off any other possibilities such as shredding of husks during milling, sparging higher than 170F, or sparging below 1.008 (none of which I did).

Kal
 
The response from Five Star was they recommend using it in the mash only. There's no additional beneifit to using it in the sparge water, but it won't harm anything if you do so.
 
kal said:
Alkalinity (CaCO3 ppm): 32.2

My understanding is that my alkalinity of 32.2 is fairly low correct? Meaning that even with a pH of 9.3 I'm not likely to extract tannins when slowly fly sparging, even with a very light grain bill.

Kal
Click to expand...

Exactly. Many people on here laud 5.2 as cheap insurance. Maybe so. But if you know how to manipulate your water, it's absolutely useless. Plus, I still can't find any information on what's in it. But that doesn't matter. Adding lactic acid to your sparge is also unnecessary. At least in your case with a low alkalinity. Some brewers think of the sparge as a clean slate and that whatever pH the sparge water is, the runnings will eventually work their way to that number. Not so. Again, it's your alkalinity that has an effect on this just like it does for the mash.
 
Thanks jmo88 - after much reading that's my understanding as well.

I was originally concerned as I *thought* I had extracted tannins on my first all-grain very light grain bill (an american light lager).

Had another guy give a good suggestion too that we often forget: Just taste it. As you start to get close to the end of your sparge, taste some of the wort for any signs of tannins/astringency. Should be pretty easy to tell. He does this by filling a 2 quart jug as he nears the end, tasting it, and if it's fine he dumps it into the brew kettle. Repeat until you have enough in your brew kettle. This is actually easier than stopping every once and a while near the end of the sparge to measure the gravity.

Sometimes the simplest ideas are the best.

Kal
 
kal said:
Had another guy give a good suggestion too that we often forget: Just taste it. As you start to get close to the end of your sparge, taste some of the wort for any signs of tannins/astringency. Kal
Click to expand...

I do this too, only instead of trying to detect signs of tannins/astringency I simply stop the run off when it is no longer sweet or when I reach the desired pre-boil volume, whichever comes first. I almost always reach the target volume first. I pump from the mash tun and get the taste sample at the pump bleeder valve. I've never been able to detect any tannins or astringency doing it this way.
 
david_42 said:
I batch sparge hot, using pH5.2 better than messing with the water chemistry.
Click to expand...
I fly sparge hot, I use 5.2 in the Mash water. +1 on messing with the water, its much easier to use 5.2.
No reason to use it in the Sparge (batch or Fly) since at that point all you are doing is washing the grains and the Ph is irrelevant once the conversion is done.

I use it because I get better efficiency with it.
 
budbo said:
No reason to use it in the Sparge (batch or Fly) since at that point all you are doing is washing the grains and the Ph is irrelevant once the conversion is done.
Click to expand...
pH may be irrelevant during sparge as far as conversion is concerned but my initial concern was with extracting tannins from grain husks because of high sparge water pH.

So pH (or more correctly Alkalinity [CaCO3 ppm]) of the sparge water *is* important. If the alkalinity is too high, you could extract tannins from the grain husks.

This is why some will use phosphoric acid to reduce the pH of the sparge water.

At least that's the way I understand it...

Kal
 
budbo said:
I fly sparge hot, I use 5.2 in the Mash water. +1 on messing with the water, its much easier to use 5.2.
No reason to use it in the Sparge (batch or Fly) since at that point all you are doing is washing the grains and the Ph is irrelevant once the conversion is done.

I use it because I get better efficiency with it.
Click to expand...

+1 Much depends on the quality of your tap water, but in most of the country it's pretty good. I use the 5.2 regularly in the mash only with excellent results. Some day I may phuk with designing my own water, but I'm in no hurry to do so. I don't have a source for free RO water and for me it's cost prohibitive to buy distilled. Same reason I don't chill with 44 lbs of ice.
 
kal said:
pH may be irrelevant during sparge as far as conversion is concerned but my initial concern was with extracting tannins from grain husks because of high sparge water pH.

So pH (or more correctly Alkalinity [CaCO3 ppm]) of the sparge water *is* important. If the alkalinity is too high, you could extract tannins from the grain husks.

Kal
Click to expand...
"If" and "could" is the key words. If your water has that much alkalinity then go for it because it could. But for small batches the grain is not in contact long enough at temp to really extract much tannins. I'm just pointing out that you really don't need it in the sparge water, not saying you shouldn't if it makes you more comfortable.

It all comes down to what makes you comfortable, some would cringe at some of my techniques, but I have never had an infected batch, never had Tannin issues, and have only dumped one batch (that was due to a really bad experimental recipe, it just tasted nasty)
 
kal said:
At least that's the way I understand it...
Click to expand...

You understand correctly. The pH of the sparge water should, ideally, be around 6 to limit the possibility of tannin extraction.

As the grain is rinsed, it loses it minerals and, thus, its buffering capacity. That's why it's important to keep the sparge water pH slightly acidic (distilled water has a pH of 7).
 
A follow up question: If I use 10% phosphoric acid to lower the pH of my water from 9.3 down to (say) 6, will that have any affect on the water's Ca, Mg, Na, Cl, S04, or hardness/alkalinity?

Just curious!

Right now my water's pH is 9.3 (high) with an alkalinity of 32.2 (low). But if I Burtonize my water, the alkalinity is going to jump right up. Doesn't that mean that tannin extraction may become a problem during slow fly sparging (170F) now since both the alkalinity and pH are high?

Kal
 
kal said:
A follow up question: If I use 10% phosphoric acid to lower the pH of my water from 9.3 down to (say) 6, will that have any affect on the water's Ca, Mg, Na, Cl, S04, or hardness/alkalinity?

Just curious!

Right now my water's pH is 9.3 (high) with an alkalinity of 32.2 (low). But if I Burtonize my water, the alkalinity is going to jump right up. Doesn't that mean that tannin extraction may become a problem during slow fly sparging (170F) now since both the alkalinity and pH are high?

Kal
Click to expand...

That is some pretty high pH. The acid doesn't affect your mineral content, only the pH. When you add your tap water to the Burtonized mash, the tap water is still low in Bicarbonates so you don't run much of a risk in tannin extraction. Burton water has no bicarbonates though, so I am not sure I understand your concern about Burton water raising your alkalinity.

I'd say your fine and are still at low risk, but I don't have water with a pH that high. Your water is low in bicarbonates and should make for a safe sparge.
 
jmo88 said:
The acid doesn't affect your mineral content, only the pH.
Click to expand...
Thanks! Wasn't sure of that.

When you add your tap water to the Burtonized mash, the tap water is still low in Bicarbonates so you don't run much of a risk in tannin extraction. Burton water has no bicarbonates though, so I am not sure I understand your concern about Burton water raising your alkalinity.
Click to expand...
Maybe it's my misunderstanding, but I assuming that if you wanted to treat your water to Burtonize it (or any other style) you'd do so for both your strike *and* sparge water, no? What you wrote makes it sound like you'd only do it for the initial mash (strike) water and then sparge with something else.

But that would mean that the water profile you're using only makes up about 1/2 of the water in your beer. I would have assumed that if you're trying to, say, make a beer from Vienna, all your water (both strike and sparge) would have to be the same water.

(I was planning on treating all 20 gallons in my hot liquor tank the same way and using it for everything).

Kal
 
kal said:
(I was planning on treating all 20 gallons in my hot liquor tank the same way and using it for everything).

Kal
Click to expand...

Add salts for the mash. So for a normal grist 5gl batch, you'd add salts for about 4gl. Then, sparge with untreated tap water. Calculate the remaining wort needed, after grain absorption, to reach the boil volume. Add the remaining salts to the kettle.

eg:

1.) Add salts for 4gl strike.
2.) Calculate grain absorption (in this case .8gl of water retained).
3.) Add salts for 3.8gl additional runnings to the boil kettle. (I typically don't add baking soda to the kettle to reduce Na. If I use Baking soda, it is really only to aid in RA adjustment anyway. I add all other salts at the same amount g/gl.)
-This is all assuming a 7gl initial boil volume.

If you add before the sparge instead of the kettle, your Ca will precipitate at 9.3pH. The boil kettle will be acidic enough to dissolve these salts. Plus you'll be wasting salts is you add to your sparge water.
 
GilaMinumBeer said:
5.2 in the mash.

Lactic acid in the sparge water.
Click to expand...
When adding lactic acid to the sparge water, what pH are you targetting? Around 6 seems to the correct target for sparge water?

I've heard that using lactic acid can cause off-flavours if too much is used. How much is "too much" if brewing a very light/delicate lager?

Kal
 
jmo88 said:
Add salts for the mash. So for a normal grist 5gl batch, you'd add salts for about 4gl. Then, sparge with untreated tap water. Calculate the remaining wort needed, after grain absorption, to reach the boil volume. Add the remaining salts to the kettle.

eg:

1.) Add salts for 4gl strike.
2.) Calculate grain absorption (in this case .8gl of water retained).
3.) Add salts for 3.8gl additional runnings to the boil kettle. (I typically don't add baking soda to the kettle to reduce Na. If I use Baking soda, it is really only to aid in RA adjustment anyway. I add all other salts at the same amount g/gl.)
-This is all assuming a 7gl initial boil volume.

If you add before the sparge instead of the kettle, your Ca will precipitate at 9.3pH. The boil kettle will be acidic enough to dissolve these salts. Plus you'll be wasting salts is you add to your sparge water.
Click to expand...

A follow up: I've gotten another 3 batches under my belt now since I wrote this and am doing exactly as you said above: adding mash salts to the mash and remaining salts to the boil. pH has always been in range correctly (using a pH meter to measure). I'm using TH's spreadsheet at http://www.ezwatercalculator.com/ to calculate the salt additions. Works great and takes the RA into account as well!

Just a quick question however: How are you measuring grain absorption so that you know exactly how salts to add to the boil? Seems that it's typically somewhere between 0.1-0.2 gallons per pound of grain. I've been using 0.12 but no idea if that's right. I fly sparge so I can't measure the actual absorption per batch either.

Thanks guys!

Kal
 
kal said:
Just a quick question however: How are you measuring grain absorption so that you know exactly how salts to add to the boil? Seems that it's typically somewhere between 0.1-0.2 gallons per pound of grain. I've been using 0.12 but no idea if that's right. I fly sparge so I can't measure the actual absorption per batch either.

Thanks guys!

Kal
Click to expand...

I'd say it depends on dead space in your system as well. I use .2 gallons per pound of grain to figure my water retention. I typically fly sparge as well.

That said, I've been assuming that the sparge doesn't rinse any salts from the water retained in the grain. A word of caution though, I may be wrong. I haven't found any information regarding how effective the sparge is at rinsing mash addition salts from the grain. Therefore, I assume that none is rinsed during the sparge. This is a minor detail, really, but something to consider for the boil kettle additions.
 
Well this thread has virtually solidified my problem. I have had continual problems with tannin like off flavors almost solvent like. I retraced evrything in my brew day. I originally accounted for it as phenols from chlorine gas until I treated with campden tablets the last 2 batches and I still detect the flavor. All other brew parameters are in order, mash temp/sparge temp, grain crush, stable ferment temps and sanitizing with star stan and no infection. Looking at my water parameters below I beleive my PH along with alkalinity could be leading to tannin extraction during the sparge. I have never used 5.2 but am considering it now. Interestingly my last beer was an oatmeal stout that so far after two weeks shows no signs of this. Any ideas based on this water report?

EZ Water Calc shows:
Starting Water (ppm):
PH: 7.7
Ca: 97
Mg: 40
Na: 13.4
Cl: 18.4
SO4: 205
Alkalinity CaCO3: 257
RA (mash only): 164 (19 to 23 SRM)
Cl to SO4 (total water): 0.09 (Very Bitter)
 
jf3233 said:
Well this thread has virtually solidified my problem. I have had continual problems with tannin like off flavors almost solvent like. I retraced evrything in my brew day. I originally accounted for it as phenols from chlorine gas until I treated with campden tablets the last 2 batches and I still detect the flavor. All other brew parameters are in order, mash temp/sparge temp, grain crush, stable ferment temps and sanitizing with star stan and no infection. Looking at my water parameters below I beleive my PH along with alkalinity could be leading to tannin extraction during the sparge. I have never used 5.2 but am considering it now. Interestingly my last beer was an oatmeal stout that so far after two weeks shows no signs of this. Any ideas based on this water report?

EZ Water Calc shows:
Starting Water (ppm):
PH: 7.7
Ca: 97
Mg: 40
Na: 13.4
Cl: 18.4
SO4: 205
Alkalinity CaCO3: 257
RA (mash only): 164 (19 to 23 SRM)
Cl to SO4 (total water): 0.09 (Very Bitter)
Click to expand...

Why would you expect adding 5.2 to the sparge will solve your problem? Have you adjusted your water on your off batches with salts? Most of this thread is not advocating using 5.2 in the sparge water.
 
kal said:
When adding lactic acid to the sparge water, what pH are you targetting? Around 6 seems to the correct target for sparge water?

I've heard that using lactic acid can cause off-flavours if too much is used. How much is "too much" if brewing a very light/delicate lager?

Kal
Click to expand...

I have switched to Phos Acid for sparge water adjustment. Lactic and Citric were coming through on light beers.
 
No I am not advocating one way or another just found the thread usefull in diagnosing my potential problem. I only have about 20 all grain batches under my belt and have been focused on proper techniques and have been reluctant to get into water chemistry until now. I just started playing with the EZ Water Calc. I find some of the correlations stated in the thread earlier to be applicable to my water chemistry.
 

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