Need a little help with my Tangerine wheat experment.

Hi,

I need some suggestions from my fellow brewers about how to get that great burst of tangerine aroma and flavor that you get from the Lost Coast Tangerine Wheat beer made by Lost Coast Brewery in Eureka, CA.

I am on my forth experimental batch but yet to be successful. Let me start out by letting you all know what I have done in the previous 3 batches. Don’t get me wrong, except for the first batch, the last two batches turned out really good but lacked that tangerine burst.

All batches have the same grain bill, hops, yeast and mash process.

4.5lb Pale Wheat
4.5lb Pale 2-Row
1lb Caramel 10L
1oz Peale: .53oz - 60min, .28oz - 15min, .17oz - 0min
White Labs WLP380 Hefeweizen IV
152deg - 60min, Single Infusion, Double Sparge
SG 1.051; FSG 1.010; IBU 17; SRM ~4-5


Experimental Batch #1:
This batch I bottled when SG was at 1.008 and used a 2/3 cup sugar primer for 5 gal. I racked into a 1 gal container, added 5 different amounts of Tangerine Extract then bottled. In each case, none of the batches fermented in the bottle and all were flat after 2 months. My guess is that the extract must have killed the yeast that was remaining in solution when they were bottled.

Experimental Batch #2:
This time, I added 10ml of Tangerine Extract to the final 10 min of the boil. After fermentation was complete, there was no tangerine aroma or flavor in the beer, but it tasted really nice and clean with a hit of citrus. Using tangerine slices on the glass gave it a nice touch.

Experimental batch #3:
I added 4oz of tangerine zest and 20ml of tangerine extract to the final 10 min of the boil. Again, after fermentation was complete, there was no distinct tangerine aroma or flavor but there was an increased amount of citrus aroma and flavor. Still the beer was very good.

Now...to the present experiment. My guess at this point is that the tangerine extract or tangerine zest/peals do nothing to get the aroma and flavor into the beer like what you get in the Lost Coast Tangerine Wheat when added to the boil before fermentation. My guess is that tangerine extract must be added after fermentation and/or after filtering.

That is where I am at and my experimental batch #4 is almost finished fermenting. I am thinking about adding the tangerine extract after I filter the beer and keg it. What do you guys think?

Thanks for any help.

TripHops

Have you thought about using potassium sorbate after fermentation and conditioning is complete ,adding fresh tangerine juice to the keg, then bottling from keg after carbonation is complete?

In the secondary I would add the tangerine extract and let it ferment out to give you that nice citrus backing you have been getting from it. When you go to keg it filter it out and add like half a cup of tangerine zest to the keg and force carbonate. Since the oils from the tangerine will be fresh and not under go any boil or fermentation they should still be pretty strong.
That would be my next try at least.

I'd try adding tangerine zest at flameout and "dry hopping" with tangerine zest for a week or two after fermentation is complete (either in primary or 2ndary). This advice is based on a beer I made recently where I did exactly that with bitter orange zest. It's got a pronounced orange flavor.

Try ditching the extract, I used fresh steeped tangerine and zest right to the fermentor, Boiling the zest eliminates all the aroma you are trying to get from. Cant speak of how mine turned out quite yet, its still in the fermentor

Soak your zest in 1/4-1/2 cup vodka for a few days, then add that liquid at bottling or kegging.

First of all, thanks you guys for all the great tips.

Well, the tangerine wheat beer is in the keg. I followed your suggestions and added 20ml of tangerine extract when racking into the keg. That really did the trick and gave the beer a nice tangerine burst of aroma and taste. The beer tastes like a typical hefeweizen with a tangerine overtone. It is very nice but I plan on a couple changes for the 5th version.

First of all, by adding the extract and tangerine zest during the boil gave the beer what I think is to much of a citric flavor. I don’t think I will add any extract or zest to the boil next time and only do the extract addition during kegging. Another thing is when you compare my beer with the beer from Lost Coast Brewery, mine has much more of a wheat taste. I suspect that the beer from Lost Coast doesn’t have the traditional amount of wheat barley you would find in regular hefeweizen beers. I am going to cut down the amount of wheat by 50% next time to see if I can get closer to a match.

Otherwise, my son, who loves the tangerine wheat from Lost Coast, says that it is very close but agrees with me on lightening up on the citric flavor and hefeweizen style.

Until next time...

TripHops

What if you didn't use the tangerine extract and only used Zest ?
Would that give you the taste, or not ?

Thanks adam01 for the suggestion.

Yes, I had considered using the zest and there are a couple of suggestions above I might try next time. Using the zest is still not out of the question and might be practical for a small batch like 5gal but when you look at very large batches, using zest seems to be impractical and cost prohibitive. That is my reasoning behind using the tangerine extract.

I did a little research to see how practical it would be to use tangerine zest in very large batches. It takes approximately 2 small tangerines to produce 1 tbls of zest which weighs in at about .5oz. For 1/2 cup it would take 16 tangerines for 4oz or 1/2 cup by weight. Remember, you don’t want to get any of the white stuff from the tangerine because it will add some bitter tannin to the taste of the beer. I am not sure how much tangerines cost per lb but we can safely guess that it can be around $1.00 per lb.

So based on that assumption, you can guess that 16 tangerines would be like 4 lbs or $4.00. Small cost to add to a 5gal batch of beer. However when you look at a scale of 10,000 gal the amount of zest needed would approach 1000 cups or 125lbs of zest which would require about 32,000 tangerines at a cost of $8,000. Not to mention the cost for the labor to get the zest from 32,000 tangerines.

Of course this estimate is totally linear and I believe that the amount of tangerine zest needed in 10,000 gal of beer is probably not linear at all. So I feel that the amount of zest needed for 10,000gal is far less than the estimate. But from a practical stand point, where is all this zest going to come from? There would still be labor and possibly shipping costs involved.

It would be really nice if someone from Lost Coast Brewery read this post and got back to us as to what they use in their process at their scale with some recommendations for smaller batches. But their process is probably their trade secret and they wouldn’t release it to anyone.

I guess I’ll simply keep experimenting...

Thanks again for all your great suggestions.

TrapHops,

I can't help with the tangerine part, but maybe you could consider a different yeast and/or grain bill? I tasted this beer at a beer festival and it was classified as a wit. I don't know if that was accurate.

My last batch of wit was 5 lbs domestic 2 row, 4 lbs flaked wheat, 1 oz Saaz hops for 60 minutes, 1oz corriander and 1oz bitter orange 10 minutes before flame off. I pitched Wyeast 3944. Maybe skip the corriander?

I'm really curious how your batch turns out, I've wanted to clone this beer for awhile now.

P.S. I can't read your original post right now, so I don't know how the grain bill compares.

Oh, and our OG was 1.043, FG 1.008. It was low alcohol content, but the flavor was great. I don't know about flaked wheat vs what you used.

Hi Suzy...

This is the original grain bill:

4.5lb Pale Wheat
4.5lb Pale 2-Row
1lb Caramel 10L
1oz Peale: .53oz - 60min, .28oz - 15min, .17oz - 0min
White Labs WLP380 Hefeweizen IV
152deg - 60min, Single Infusion, Double Sparge
SG 1.051; FSG 1.010; IBU 17; SRM ~4-5

I also tasted the tangerine wheat at the International Brew Fest in Portland and it was not very good and yes it was classified as a wit. You can purchase Lost Coast Tangerine wheat at Bellmont Station on Stark street between NE 43rd and NE 45th streets.

The batch was not up to my standards because I think I fermented to dry. I am going to try a different Saac rest temp of 153-155 to produce more non-fermentables and hopfully that might do the trick. I might also try a different yeast, not sure which one yet. I am also going to use more tangerine zest and drop the actual tangerine, with out a lot of that white stuff, into a secondary after primary is complete and keep them in the carboy for 6 days vs. 2 days.

I'm getting a little tired of this experiment (6th time) and just might bag it and buy the darn beer instead...

Trip

Triphops, I know its been over a year since you posted in this, but I am very interested in making this recipe. Have you made any changes or tried anything different since the last time you posted? I have had this beer a couple of times now at a local bar and I really really like it. Your recipe looks great and I am definitely going to try it! I just wanted to see if you had any more tips.

Have you thought about maybe some Amarillo? I've always got a bit of tangerine from them.

Thats a really good suggestion! Would you use it for bittering or aroma or both?

I'd do some flavor and some aroma, maybe a little dry hop, too.

What did you end up adding in terms of extract at bottling?

Finally I believe I have achieved nervana with this Tangerine wheat experiment. I found out by adding between .3 - .5oz (8.5gm - 14gm) of tangerine extract during cold conditioning of the 5gal carboy, that added just the right amount of aroma and flavor to the beer to closely match the one you can buy at Lost Coast Brewery in Eureka, CA. It turns out to be a great hot summer's day refreshing beer for back yard activities.

By the way, I brewed this batch 3 more times from my last post. I think it is 9 all together, but I will stick with adding the extract during cold conditioning. Here is the current recipe:

Note: These temperatures could vary based on humidity and timing but they should be close.

Tangerine Wheat clone
Full Grain
Single Infusion
Double Batch Sparge method

BHY – 75%
Evaporation Rate – 18%
Absorption rate - .15gal per pound grain/adjuncts
LG Ratio – 3.2 (1.53qtrs/Gal)
Kettle Full Amount – 6.5gal

Starting SG 1.050
Ending SG 1.010 – 1.007
IBU 17
Color 4.43 SRM
ABV ~ 5%

6.0lb Pale Malt 2 Row, (2 SRM) Grain 65.00%
1.7 lb Wheat US (2.0 SRM) Grain 25.00 %
.84 lb Caramel 10L (10 SRM) Grain 10.00 %

0.53 oz Perle [7.0] (60 min) Hops 23.1% Util
0.28 oz Perle [7.0] (15 min) Hops 11.4% Util
0.15 oz Perle [7.0] post boil Hops 5.4% Util
1 Pkg Weihenstephan Weizen (Wyeast Labs #3068) Yeast-Wheat

Prepare 3.558gal of strike water at 162.25 deg and add grains to mash 1/3 at a time and stir to saturate all grains. Attain mash temp of 152 degrees for 1 hour. Add 1.53gal of 210deg water to mash out at 168deg for 10 min. Stir grains for even heat distribution. After 10 min mash out, run out the wort and measure yield (should be around 3.68gal). Subtract the run out amount from the Kettle Full Volume amount to get sparge volume (should be around 3.32gal). Bring sparge water to 170deg and use ½ of the sparge amount for first batch sparge. Stir mash lightly to saturage grains. Let mash rest for 15 min then run out. Add second sparge volume, lightly stir grains and let mash rest for 15 min then run out. Make kettle volume adjustments as needed to get the desired 6.5gal or a little more. Bring wort to a boil for 15 min then add bettering hops for 60 min. At 15 min into boil add aroma hops. Add remainder of hops at end of boil cover for 15 min.

Fast cool wart to 80deg, rack to fermenter. Let set for 4-5 hours then rack to sanitized carboy. Pitch yeast when wort temperature is between 65 – 70deg. Ferment until SG reaches 1.020 and rack into sanitized carboy. When SG reaches 1.010 - 1.007 rack to sanitized carboy and add .3oz - .5oz Tangerine extract. Let set for 2-3 days while cold conditioning at 35 - 38deg. Rack to keg or bottle as you wish.

Enjoy...
Trip..

Thank you trip for updating your recipe! I am making this probably tomorrow. I have been leeching this recipe for a while now and can't wait to make it. I am still in the process of building my all grain setup, but I am going to attempt to do this as a partial grain recipe. I am using iBrewmaster for the calculations. What do you think about this?

4.5 lb. Pale liquid extract
1.8 lb. Pale Malt
1.7 lb. Wheat Malt
.84 Crystal Malt 10L

The program says the estimated OG is 1.050. Also, what brand tangerine extract do you use or does it not really matter? Thanks again!

I did a tangerine wit this past spring. Grain bill and mash was pretty close to yours. I used palisade hops for their citrisy aroma, and found the belgian ardennes yeast complimented well. The tangerines- used 12 tangerines quartered, put in a mesh bag, then into a big ziplock bag and blugeoned with a rubber mallet. Then when the wort was chilled to below 150 deg, removed mesh bag from ziplock and added to boilpot ( along with juices, etc that was in baggie). Came out exceptional. The only thing I didnt like was the orange aroma/ flavor dissapated rather quickly. By the end of the keg, it was just a good wit beer with a hint of orange.

I was lucky enough to be able to pour Lost Coast at a recent BrewFest. The brewer was not there.. but the sales rep was. I was hesitant to try a fruity beer.. but finally succumbed. It was beyond my expectations. Heck, even the big burly Harley type guys were coming back for more.. more so than their Double Trouble IPA. They do use extract.. not fresh fruit or rinds. I didn't ask at what point the extract was added.. but, I'd guess adding it to the end product would be best.. like dry hopping. I would think that the volatiles of the extract would be.. well.. volatile and easy to lose if not careful. I'd also guess it has a relatively short shelf life.. like ales. The volatiles dissipate in months there as well.

hey Trihops i was wandering about a rough estimate of the fermentation time period .i brewed this 2 weeks ago and the gravity is around 1.018 and was wandering about how long it takes to get to the desired 1.010-1.007

Interesting situation, it seems like your fementation is taking to long. Normally, my fermentations take between 4 - 7 days to reach the target of 1.010. Are you still getting consistant bubbling or has it stopped? If it has stopped, you could stir the lees a little and loosen up the yeast to see if it will kick-start again. Another option is to add more yeasts but that might not help.

Good luck,
Trip

Awesome, thanks so much for doing all the leg work Trip, love this beer. Sorry for the old thread bump but curious what brand of extract you were using.

Going to brew this with my son this week; Lost Coast Tangerine Wheat is one of his favorites, so I thought it would be a good introduction to home brewing.

This is an older post, I wondering if there are any recommended tweaks over the past 6 years for TripHops final recipe?

I'm hoping to brew this in the next few weeks. A friend gave me a bunch of Mandarina Bavaria hops, which are said to have "Specific aroma descriptors include fruity and citrus, specifically distinct tangerine and citrus flavors." I will likely swap the Perle for these and use the rest of the recipe TripHops has posted.

I too would welcome anyone's tweaks or experiences with TripHops recipe.

I love mandarina. This should work nice....i think a whirlpool add, like 2 oz, would play nice with the tangerine.

I have an Amarillo/ mandarina IPA planned that should be like a fresh orange, if it goes as planned. Great hop!

Hey! Curious. Does anyone have a beer xml for the recipe listed in comment #18. I am a newbie and was wondering if anyone had one already I can import into the Grainfather Community for my first batch