Midwest Supplies Grain Mill- Read before ordering!

Just to let everyone know who buys from Midwest Supplies, our club has been having trouble with the crush from their mill. One of our club members took a set of feeler gauges in there today and checked the gap and it was .065" on the tightest setting. We have been getting horrible efficiencies from their mill for a few brews now. He brought it up to a couple of their employees, but they didn't seem to care much. One did look at it with him and they figured out that the rollers were just too wore out and need to be replaced, although they didn't seem to care much and just told him "that is just how it is."

Just a word of warning to anyone thinking of ordering crushed grain from midwest supplies.

As for myself, I will be driving the extra few miles over to Northern Brewer from now on.

Or get your own grain mill! Most LHBS will set their grain mill pretty loose as the do not want customers to come back complaining of stuck sparges. Plus they will need more grain to hit their numbers. I set my mill to 0.028" and have no problem, but it is my mill, not some stores.

Also most of the customers that asked for crushed grain are using it for steeping. The light crush is fine for them. If you are doing AG you need to invest in a crusher yourself. Its a major important part of the process and you need to have the control imo.

Buy a mill. Midwest is cheaper on price than NB and I only get max 5# of one grain at a time for PM. Going AG soon and have my sights on a Schmindling mill from Midwest.

The very first piece of equipment I purchased when I went to AG brewing was a mill. 50 lbs sacks of grain and both of my locals always breathe a sigh of relief when I tell them I want it whole. Good folks at both places, but I wouldn't trust the crush at either of them, just because, well, you don't know who had their d%$kskinners on the mill.

It really is *that* important that you have control of the crush of your grain in AG brewing. I find it hard to trust anyone else when it comes to that one aspect.

Yeah, I am going to make my own grain mill in the next couple weeks(I'm a machinist). That still doesn't excuse the fact that it was clearly pointed out that their mill was way out of spec and they didn't seem to care.

A shop that makes its living off of homebrewers should be doing everything it can to make sure that everything is up to par. There is just no excuse for something like this. A new mill, or new rollers is a necessary expense and part of doing business. If they aren't willing to do what is necessary to take care of their customers, then they should get out of the business.

While you're right to a point, it's always good to keep in mind when dealing with service employees that the majority of them are underpaid, overworked, and do not give half a **** about the overall success/reputability of the business. I know this was certainly true with me with just about every service job I ever had. Although one would hope that it might be different at the LHBS, since presumably the people working there are happy to be able to geek out on beer everyday.

Must be a recent occurrence, this was the first weekend where I had an issue with my crush. I always buy from midwest and do a double crush of my grain. Never had any issues, crush always looked good and always hit between 75-80% eff.

I bought grain for the two batches I brewed yesterday on Thursday and I didn't notice until I was doughing in that the crush looked terrible, I still hit 65% eff but it threw my recipe off.

Double roller mill (adjustable) with shoot was 150$, between this and the immersion cooler were the best two purchases I made for all grain. Get the mill, DIYS and play.

I have to say that I am surprised by people's acceptance of mediocrity. True, the best course of action would be to have your own grain mill. I guess I just expect more from a store that large who caters to homebrewers.

MachineShopBrewing said:

I have to say that I am surprised by people's acceptance of mediocrity. True, the best course of action would be to have your own grain mill. I guess I just expect more from a store that large who caters to homebrewers.

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I have to agree. If they are selling crushed grains...well they should be right.

MachineShopBrewing said:

I have to say that I am surprised by people's acceptance of mediocrity. True, the best course of action would be to have your own grain mill. I guess I just expect more from a store that large who caters to homebrewers.

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Yeah getting your own mill is the definition of not standing for mediocracy. Besides you will pay the thing off in no time by buying 50/55 pound sacks. Plus you should probably talk to someone in charge. The employees probably can't do much about it.

MachineShopBrewing said:

I have to say that I am surprised by people's acceptance of mediocrity. True, the best course of action would be to have your own grain mill. I guess I just expect more from a store that large who caters to homebrewers.

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I wouldn't expect much motivation from the typical hourly retail employee, let alone one who works at a homebrewing/hydroponic store.

I would like to think that if you address this concern to management/ownership, they would take it more seriously.

That said, I love Northern Brewer and won't try to talk you out of taking your business there.

In the store's defense, many brew shops give a somewhat coarse grind on purpose to minimize the flour and decrease the brewer's chance for a stuck sparge. It's not necessarily negligence or a tactic to get you to buy more grain. Ask them to run your grain through the mill twice. That should help a little.

Related:
https://www.homebrewtalk.com/f36/does-anyone-double-crush-grains-midwest-supplies-212709/

Also there is GREAT reason to give malt that is crushed coarse... you don't get stuck sparges. People will be more than happy to add a pound of half pound of base malt to make up for the drop from 75% to 65% efficiency but people will complain bitterly (as I am sure they have) when they get their tight crush malt and it results in a stuck sparge and the store has to refund credit to save face.

Think about it from their perspective and who they are catering too... look at Mr. Malty... at some point you get serious about this hobby and when you do you stop having people do stuff for you and you do it yourself. I didn't want someone mashing my grain, I switched to all grain... I didn't want someone crushing my grain, I got a mill, I didn't want someone to tell me what hops to use and when... so I never bought a kit after the first one. I have had stuck sparges, I have had beer that was undrinkable and I have had very low and VERY high efficiencies attempting to figure out what worked best with MY system.

This is not mediocrity, this is a business trying to cater to as many people as possible and to prevent 100% loss disasters by crushing very coarse. Perhaps ask them to crush finer next time, but I can guarantee that they will not condition your grain for you to allow a crush on the order of .020mm or .018mm which you can get with a roller mill and have the husks be tender and soft and the kernel be crushed beautifully.

Something that I was told a while back was that replication is more important that efficiency, and I just now believe that is 100% true. If you can guarantee that you get 65% every time you brew, you plan for that in your recipe. I can guarantee that I get 92-95% efficiency when I crush super fine and double decoction mash, so I plan a German style around that. If you get 80% by doing the same thing, you can easily plan a great recipe around your numbers. Every brewer here has a different setup, different temps, and different equipment and I bet that we all produce good beer 80% of the time, great beer 15% of the time and beer that you can not drink 5%.

It seems like there is a personal issue deeper than the mill setting IMHO. If you are serious about your brewing and as your signature line states you should invest in a few tools to assisst in your quest. A carpenter is only as good as his tools.

Wow, everyone gets really testy any time you bring something up like this on this forum.

It seems like there is a personal issue deeper than the mill setting IMHO. If you are serious about your brewing and as your signature line states you should invest in a few tools to assisst in your quest. A carpenter is only as good as his tools.

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There is no other personal issue. WTF?! A guy can't be disappointed with the level of service that a SPECIALTY shop is giving without everyone jumping on him? I have not bought a mill yet because I work 5 bleeping miles from midwest supplies and I expected that a store who specializes in selling malt and crushed malt would know WTF they were doing. Besides, I am a machinist. If I want a mill, I make one. I just wanted to spend my money in other areas first, like my 24 cu ft. keezer, many kegs, two ferm fridges with dual Ranco's and fermwraps on each, three mini fridges to store bottles and yeast cultures, 10 different flasks of all sizes, four stir plates, pH meter, and a bunch of other goodies.

So don't give me any @#%! about "oh, you are an idiot and you should have the tools if you are serious about brewing." Maybe they should fix their mill if they are serious about selling milled grain. Quit trying to pick a fight with me, I'm only trying to make people aware of the fact that the mill gap is .065" at its tightest setting, which is about .026" larger than what is considered the ideal setting for a decent crush and still lauter with ease.

In the store's defense, many brew shops give a somewhat coarse grind on purpose to minimize the flour and decrease the brewer's chance for a stuck sparge. It's not necessarily negligence or a tactic to get you to buy more grain. Ask them to run your grain through the mill twice. That should help a little.

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I didn't want someone crushing my grain, I got a mill

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I always crush my own malt when I go there and inspect my crush thoroughly. Most of the time I do run it through twice, which makes it marginally better. I'm not super concerned about my efficiency, but when a club member got a 36% this weekend due to the malt being maybe waved in front of the mill, that makes me a little mad. I also have noticed that their mill has been doing a horrible job on my last few brews too. When I run my grain through the second time, it has a tendency to shred the husks quite a bit.

This is not mediocrity, this is a business trying to cater to as many people as possible and to prevent 100% loss disasters by crushing very coarse.

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You are wrong, plain and simple. They have this mill-http://www.barleycrusher.com/barleycrushermicro.php

This mill is designed to be fully adjustable. So they can easily set it for a very coarse crush if they want when shipping grain to people when they don't want them to have a stuck sparge. But when I go in there and crank the mill as tight as it will go, which is the .015" setting on the dial and it actually gaps at .065", that is what I would call unacceptable. Fix or replace the mill. Then they can crush it coarse for those who want it, and the rest of us who come in and use it can crush it how we want. Its not a matter of trying to prevent disasters, the mill is wore out and needs to have the rollers replaced. I just wanted to make those who care aware of that fact before they order malt from them expecting it to be crushed decently and it is not.

Something that I was told a while back was that replication is more important that efficiency, and I just now believe that is 100% true. If you can guarantee that you get 65% every time you brew, you plan for that in your recipe. I can guarantee that I get 92-95% efficiency when I crush super fine and double decoction mash, so I plan a German style around that. If you get 80% by doing the same thing, you can easily plan a great recipe around your numbers. Every brewer here has a different setup, different temps, and different equipment and I bet that we all produce good beer 80% of the time, great beer 15% of the time and beer that you can not drink 5%.

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Yeah, yeah, yeah...

I know how to brew and what is important. I don't need a treatise on why efficiency isn't important. I target 65-70% and am happy with the results, but when the last few brews have eeked lower and lower due to poor crush, its hard to be repeatable.

remilard said:

I wouldn't expect much motivation from the typical hourly retail employee, let alone one who works at a homebrewing/hydroponic store.

I would like to think that if you address this concern to management/ownership, they would take it more seriously.

That said, I love Northern Brewer and won't try to talk you out of taking your business there.

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This is the best advice you've gotten in this thread. If you really think there's an issue, try addressing it to someone other than the poor dude at the counter probably making less than $10/hr.

I will say, however, that I bought from Northern just this week and the crush was *terrible.* A lot of the grains still looked whole, just cracked, almost no flour. 60% efficiency with a system where I routinely pull about 70-75%. Not a huge deal in terms of cost, but it did screw with my recipe and the beer won't be what I wanted it to.

So, have you contacted the owner or manager? You can insist to me all day long that the mill should be fixed, but apparently my opinion will only serve to anger you, and it certainly won't change anything at the store.

Additionally, no one is "trying to pick a fight" or getting testy. You can respectfully disagree all you want, but there is no need to resort to foul language.

Someone is awfully riled up now

I agree it's crummy but if you want it changed I'd let the management know.

I was in my LHBS (for the first time) the other day and she's crushing on a 26 year old corona mill...

Wow, look at what a guy starts by merely taking his feeler gauges to the LHBS. I am the one who actually did the measuring. I also recently had a poor experience with my crush leading to a poor efficiency (about 20 percentage points lower than normal). Am I going to boycott Midwest? No. Am I disappointed at the fact that the brewing session did not go as planned? Yes. I don’t get to brew as often as some, only about once per month, so when that little extra bit of cash becomes available and I do get the chance, I want it to be right. Obviously I don’t have a mill yet, I have focused my budget elsewhere, mostly on fermentation since it is my feeling that it is very critical (and I was not having a whole lot of problems with the grain). I have spent the time, effort and money to get my process down and get repeatable results but when the inconsistencies started I traced it back to the crush. Now I did not go into Midwest all guns blazin, I simply measured, showed an employee what I was talking about and he tried to help. He then asked another employee and he was aware that the gap is high and recommended running it thru twice and that it has always been like that. I didn’t necessarily like that answer so while they were looking at that mill, I proceeded to measure another one, which was running about 0.045 so I used that one. Did I seek out the upper echelon of management, no, partly because I was there on a Sunday and figured that anyone who is anyone would be at home. Secondly, I do feel that I got them thinking enough that I hope that those two will talk to their manager because they seemed genuine in helping me but there wasn’t a whole lot they could do short of ripping that thing apart. I was a little disappointed to hear that they knew of the problem and it still persists today but again, I am lucky enough to get there in person and crush my own and now I know to use one of the other mills. Who knows, maybe some of the employees run it thru twice and maybe some don’t, could explain why it is sporadic. But don’t get me wrong, I would still like it to be fixed / adjusted. I think what MachineShopBrewing wanted to do, was to just make others aware that there may be issues and if people are experiencing problems, like a few of us have recently, there may be an explanation, the mill. I do agree with many of the others who replied about buying a mill and that is now next on my list but until then I will travel with my gauges and use the mill that is the closest to what I think is ideal, which is about the best I can do with what I have to keep it consistent. Cheers!

Thanks for chiming in Eric.

If people would look at the original post, all I was trying to do was warn people that the crush could be sub-par coming from Midwest and that if they are concerned about making consistent beer, they may want to purchase elsewhere. Those of us who live close enough to go into the shop can see the crush and do it ourselves, but those who may be ordering from out of state would not be very happy when they got their grains on a Thursday and wanted to brew on a Saturday and they don't have a mill at home.

That's all I was trying to do when everyone felt they had to lecture me about what I should and shouldn't buy and who I should talk to about it.

That's an awful lot of equipment and appliances to have and still be having your grain milled elsewhere. I'm not trying to tell you how to spend your money, but for me, a grain mill was pretty important. As someone stated earlier, consistency is a major factor to some, and it is undeniably an important step in replicating that "magical beer".

I think some people get a little testy sometimes because midwest is a vendor on this site, and as such, pay the bills. Complaining about the people who make this site possible seems a little unnecessary. If everyone took your advice and stopped buying grain from them, their business would take a hit and possibly force them to stop supporting this site. I think taking it up with the manager would have been a better course of action than complaining to a bunch of other current and potential customers. You're lucky to even have a LHBS. Trust me, having to order everything online is a PITA, and gets expensive.

This is the first time I've read a thread complaining about their crush. I've bought milled grain from them and never had a problem. I'm sure there are plenty of others who have also. That's probably part of the reason someone suggested that maybe it's not the crush giving you a lower efficiency on a batch. If it's that bad, you always have the option of going elsewhere.

That's an awful lot of equipment and appliances to have and still be having your grain milled elsewhere.

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True, but that is going to be my next project anyway now that I have my second dual temp controlled fermentor and the parts to build three more stir plates. I was able to put it off because I had access to Midwest's grain mill when I bought my grains. Having a mill and buying bulk grain was always part of the plan, it just got moved up in priority lately.

If everyone took your advice and stopped buying grain from them, their business would take a hit and possibly force them to stop supporting this site. I think taking it up with the manager would have been a better course of action than complaining to a bunch of other current and potential customers. You're lucky to even have a LHBS. Trust me, having to order everything online is a PITA, and gets expensive.

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I hear you, but I never told anyone to stop buying grain from them. I just wanted people to be aware that they may have trouble with the crush. If you are stuck somewhere without access to a LHBS or a grain mill, you would be pretty screwed when you got your grains and most of them were not even cracked. Not everyone thinks to ask them to run it through twice. I have been in the grain room many times when they are filling orders and they never run it through twice that I have seen.
I did also send an email to the contact email off their website regarding the matter. The crush had been bugging me for a while, but I always ran it through twice and got decent results, but not great. It tends to shred quite a bit the second time.



I apologize to anyone for getting a little mad except onthekeg.

It seems like there is a personal issue deeper than the mill setting IMHO. If you are serious about your brewing and as your signature line states you should invest in a few tools to assisst in your quest. A carpenter is only as good as his tools.

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That comment got me pretty steamed, especially when I probably have much more investment in equipment than he/she does, and probably double the time spent reading and researching the science.


I'm done with this thread now. For those who care, beware of the crush when ordering from Midwest Supplies. I like the store and will assuredly keep buying things there as long as the mill gets addressed(they are cheaper than NB after all.) If I find out that the mill is fixed, I will update this thread to acknowledge that fact.

MachineShopBrewing said:

Just to let everyone know who buys from Midwest Supplies, our club has been having trouble with the crush from their mill. One of our club members took a set of feeler gauges in there today and checked the gap and it was .065" on the tightest setting. We have been getting horrible efficiencies from their mill for a few brews now. He brought it up to a couple of their employees, but they didn't seem to care much. One did look at it with him and they figured out that the rollers were just too wore out and need to be replaced, although they didn't seem to care much and just told him "that is just how it is."

Just a word of warning to anyone thinking of ordering crushed grain from midwest supplies.

As for myself, I will be driving the extra few miles over to Northern Brewer from now on.

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Which one of their mills did he check? I presume it was the one in the grain room or the one just outside the grain room/ the second one is pretty old.
I am pretty sure they have one or more in the back that they use for mail orders.
Did you mail order the under-crushed grain or crush your own in the grain room?

I hope you brought this to the attention of a guy in charge over at MWS and gave them a decent chance to make it right before posting this.

You cant show the first guy at the front desk (who probably makes minimum wage or just above) and expect them to care that much.

Just my .02

BBKing said:

I hope you brought this to the attention of a guy in charge over at MWS and gave them a decent chance to make it right before posting this.

You cant show the first guy at the front desk (who probably makes minimum wage or just above) and expect them to care that much.

Just my .02

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I agree 100% with BBKing's 0.02...I also really like to know if the OP followed up with MWS management before posting on here.

Yuri_Rage said:

So, have you contacted the owner or manager? You can insist to me all day long that the mill should be fixed, but apparently my opinion will only serve to anger you, and it certainly won't change anything at the store.

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Yuri_Rage said:

Additionally, no one is "trying to pick a fight" or getting testy. You can respectfully disagree all you want, but there is no need to resort to foul language.

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This.

I've used Midwest for a while and haven't had a problem UNTIL I got the grains from them for my last batch. I saw right away that the grains were "vaguely" crushed. There were whole grains visible in the bags. My efficiency went to the four winds and now I have an over-hopped rye ale now. I should have sent the grain back but alas I didn't and now I'm thinking of dumping the batch. Probably won't boycott Midwest but I did order from Northern Brewer for my next bier.

BBKing said:

You cant show the first guy at the front desk (who probably makes minimum wage or just above) and expect them to care that much.

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(In my polite voice) Actually You can, and should expect them to care; it's his JOB. He could've at least said he'd bring the complaint/problem to the Mgr's attention, that's his job too. Now I'll also have to say I agree with giving them a reasonable chance to remedy the problem before posting about it online; but at the same time, I think more people should expect people to do their jobs.

Used to be if somebody was doing a halfassed job they were given the chance to improve & if they failed to do so, they were replaced. When I worked with the public I always did the best I could to get the customer the best deal for the lowest price. If they had a complaint or problem I couldn't solve myself, I brought it to the attention of someone who could, usually the boss & did so ASAP. Anyone who looked to be 10 yrs older than myself, I addressed as "Sir" or "Ma'am."

All I'm saying is that not only is it OK for someone to expect more from their LHBS, they have a duty to expect more from their LHBS. If they don't, they're just encouraging the continuation of & worsening of the problem...

AND he should mill his own grain.
Just my 2 cents worth. Regards, GF.

Just a quick update. Midwest and MachineShopBrewing have been in contact with each other and it seems the wheels are in motion to rectify the situation by having the rollers replaced.

gratus fermentatio said:

(In my polite voice) Actually You can, and should expect them to care; it's his JOB. He could've at least said he'd bring the complaint/problem to the Mgr's attention, that's his job too. Now I'll also have to say I agree with giving them a reasonable chance to remedy the problem before posting about it online; but at the same time, I think more people should expect people to do their jobs.

Used to be if somebody was doing a halfassed job they were given the chance to improve & if they failed to do so, they were replaced. When I worked with the public I always did the best I could to get the customer the best deal for the lowest price. If they had a complaint or problem I couldn't solve myself, I brought it to the attention of someone who could, usually the boss & did so ASAP. Anyone who looked to be 10 yrs older than myself, I addressed as "Sir" or "Ma'am."

All I'm saying is that not only is it OK for someone to expect more from their LHBS, they have a duty to expect more from their LHBS. If they don't, they're just encouraging the continuation of & worsening of the problem...

AND he should mill his own grain.
Just my 2 cents worth. Regards, GF.

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I agree with this 100%.

My main point is that I would have bypassed the first guy at the counter and just asked for a manager. Thats just my approach.

Cheers

I had a problem with MWS back around tax time when I bought a propane burner off of them. Long story short, after I made the order I received a call from one of their guys apologizing saying that they didnt have the specific burner in stock at the time, and that I would have to wait for said company to send it to me directly.

When it got to me, the burner came with the wrong regulator. This WAS not the fault of MWS, but I called them first asking them the best way to take care of it and get a new regulator. Whatd they say? Send it to us, we'll replace it so you dont have to wait any longer than you absolutely have to.

Thats service if you ask me. They took care of a mistake that wasnt even their fault.

Sorry, but I'll defend MWS all day long.

This thread hurts baby Jesus. Let MWS fix the issue before crying online. You have multiple stir plates but not a mill? Go brewers.

We are sorry that there was an issue. We try to keep our equipment in top shape at all times. We have multiple mills and we try to keep a gap that works for all brewers. We were just told of the issue and are diving in to fix it. We do encourage feedback and that is the only way we can know how we are doing. My name is Todd Jackson and I am the Customer Service Supervisor. I invite you to contact me with any issues and I will get the ball rolling to make them right. My email is [email protected], or you can email any of our service team at [email protected] and I can be reached at 1-888-449-2739. If you are local, feel free to ask for me when you stop in. I am usually in the shop Monday through Friday, but will always respond to emails. Most of us who work at Midwest are brewers, and we want everyone to make the best homebrew possible. Please let us know when something isn't going right and we will try to make it right as quickly as possible.

slothorentropy said:

This is the best advice you've gotten in this thread. If you really think there's an issue, try addressing it to someone other than the poor dude at the counter probably making less than $10/hr.

I will say, however, that I bought from Northern just this week and the crush was *terrible.* A lot of the grains still looked whole, just cracked, almost no flour. 60% efficiency with a system where I routinely pull about 70-75%. Not a huge deal in terms of cost, but it did screw with my recipe and the beer won't be what I wanted it to.

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I recently had the same experience with NB. I got around 60% as well when I am used to hitting closer to 75-80%. Called them up and they told me there is a not an issue..

midwestsupplies said:

We are sorry that there was an issue. We try to keep our equipment in top shape at all times. We have multiple mills and we try to keep a gap that works for all brewers. We were just told of the issue and are diving in to fix it. We do encourage feedback and that is the only way we can know how we are doing. My name is Todd Jackson and I am the Customer Service Supervisor. I invite you to contact me with any issues and I will get the ball rolling to make them right. My email is [email protected], or you can email any of our service team at [email protected] and I can be reached at 1-888-449-2739. If you are local, feel free to ask for me when you stop in. I am usually in the shop Monday through Friday, but will always respond to emails. Most of us who work at Midwest are brewers, and we want everyone to make the best homebrew possible. Please let us know when something isn't going right and we will try to make it right as quickly as possible.

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Todd, on behalf of all of your customers here. Thank you for addressing this issue and putting it to rest. Oh and welcome to the forum. Please don't be a stranger.

midwestsupplies said:

We are sorry that there was an issue. We try to keep our equipment in top shape at all times. We have multiple mills and we try to keep a gap that works for all brewers. We were just told of the issue and are diving in to fix it. We do encourage feedback and that is the only way we can know how we are doing. My name is Todd Jackson and I am the Customer Service Supervisor. I invite you to contact me with any issues and I will get the ball rolling to make them right. My email is [email protected], or you can email any of our service team at [email protected] and I can be reached at 1-888-449-2739. If you are local, feel free to ask for me when you stop in. I am usually in the shop Monday through Friday, but will always respond to emails. Most of us who work at Midwest are brewers, and we want everyone to make the best homebrew possible. Please let us know when something isn't going right and we will try to make it right as quickly as possible.

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Now that's some good customer service! Well done Todd!

Now that my timeout for not playing nice with the other kids is over....

I have been in contact with Midwest and they are working to rectify the situation.

For those of you who had problems and those of you who understood what this post was about, thank you. For those who felt the need to tell me to get a grain mill, you completely missed the point of my original post and you people are the reason newspaper headline writers stay in business.

Now that's some good customer service! Well done Todd!

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True, they have jumped to get in front of the problem and I will continue to shop there into the future when the problem gets fixed. However, good customer service is not a reactive customer service, it is proactive in preventing problems like this from ever coming up.