All Wheat, why the fear?

I have been told that malted wheat doesn't have sufficient diastatic power to convert, and that if you don't provide bulk via a barley mix or rice hulls then you'll stick your sparge.

Well, I have done a couple batches now with nothing but American White Wheat Malt in the mash tun no problems. Standard .040 grind, multistep decoction, batch sparge. No mash in the bag, no stuck sparge, clear running wort, standard efficiencies.

So what is all the hub-bub about? Anyone know

I'm not sure but I have thought about giving it a try. Curious to see what the others have to say about this topic as well.

I am going to do it absolutely just haven't gotten around to it. I'd like to do a stout type deal with all wheat and wheat specialty grains. Throw in a bunch of rice hulls. Why not?

I have been doing this without rice hulls and not having any issues. I have had a bag on standby in case I needed to mix them in but so far not a hint of getting stuck.

Here is a link to an all-wheat porter:
wheat porter

I'm curious how it would turn out.

Never heard that malted wheat doesn't have enough diastase to convert itself. If anything, I have hear that is ALL it has.

Otherwise, it has more to do with the husk or lack of signifigance. Rice hulls are to improve lauterability. Perhaps it's a hand-me-down precaution from commercial scale brewing.

If you really want to have fun, try an all rye malt mash.

I haven't heard about wheat malt not having sufficient diastatic power. I would check Papazian's book but I'm traveling at the moment.

As far as rice hulls, there is no need to use them with wheat malt but rather flaked wheat. I use a lot of flaked wheat in my brewing and when flakes wheat constitutes a significant portion of the grain bill you certainly want some rice hills. If not, the mash gets really gunky and looks like a bowl of corn flakes after they've sat in milk for an hour.

If you don't need hulls then you don't need them but most peoples systems your going to need them.

The wheat can convert itself. Don't worry.

I have yet to play around with rye but I'll get there eventually.

DragonOrta said:

If you really want to have fun, try an all rye malt mash.

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I hear that, 2lbs of the stuff made my last 10gal batch so sticky and stuck it took 45-55 minutes to sparge, i usually fly sparge in 20 minutes, going as slow as i can stand. I cant wait to try a wheat mash though, my next grain purchase will include a sack of wheat me thinks.

Gwitz said:

I hear that, 2lbs of the stuff made my last 10gal batch so sticky and stuck it took 45-55 minutes to sparge, i usually fly sparge in 20 minutes, going as slow as i can stand. I cant wait to try a wheat mash though, my next grain purchase will include a sack of wheat me thinks.

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With a grist totaling 26lbs of malt, 10lbs was rye malt, 2 was flaked rye, and 1 was crystal rye. I used 2lbs of rice hulls and just let is drain for an hour, stirred the stuck sparge, and then let it drain for another hour. I'm never using that much rye again.

duckonfidelis said:

I have been told that malted wheat doesn't have sufficient diastatic power to convert, and that if you don't provide bulk via a barley mix or rice hulls then you'll stick your sparge.

Well, I have done a couple batches now with nothing but American White Wheat Malt in the mash tun no problems. Standard .040 grind, multistep decoction, batch sparge. No mash in the bag, no stuck sparge, clear running wort, standard efficiencies.

So what is all the hub-bub about? Anyone know

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Malted wheat has plenty of enzymes. What it doesn't have is husks and compared to malted barley, flavor. As others have said an addition of rice hulls in a 100% wheat mash is probably a good idea so that you will be sure of creating a good grain bed for runoff. There is probably a reason why over the centuries of beer brewing wheat usually plays a minor role. For most people, myself included, wheat just seems lacking in flavor compared with barley in beer. Many high end vodkas use wheat as the majority grain because of it's clean and light flavor but IMO barley just makes better tasting beer.

Ah, flaked wheat sticking a sparge makes sense. Thanks

So, how do these things taste? Sounds like a lot of people are trying it but very few come back and say what they think of them. I'm going to give it a go. I was thinking I would like to put a little twist on it and make it less cloudy, have less body and a little more alcohol. What do you guys think? No decoction, no protein rest to keep them big and help them settle out. Low mash temp to increase fermentables and a 2ndary conditioning at basement temp (50-55 here) for a couple of weeks to let as much of the proteins settle out as possible...then prime a little on the high side for more carbonation. I think I want to first try this with an american ale yeast and then try it with a lager yeast and cold condition it (once I get my hands on a lagering fridge). I was also thinking about making it a SMaSH brew. Maybe use Saaz hops like James from Basic Brewing did.
[ame=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JF6FkLqmqUk]Basic Brewing Video - All Wheat Beer - April 15, 2010 - YouTube[/ame]

I have a feeling that doing a 100% wheat beer with a decoction is the only way to actually avoid the stuck sparge and lauder. Yes, the barley mostly is for the hulls and body of the beer but wheat has plenty of enzymes to self convert.

I generally do my heff with 70% wheat and 30% barley on a fantastically tight crush after conditioning with fantastic efficiency and result. I really do like rye in my beer and the next spring beer I am going to make will be a 70% rye 30% dark Munich roggenbeir, double decocted.

...with the BIAB though there is no fear of a stuck sparge, decoction or no decoction. I'll end up giving all rye a go too at some point.

Oh that's right you do BIAB. I do MLT with the above. Of course, sorry for the confusion.

Confusion is completely understood. I didn't realize anyone would know if I did BIAB. I was just hoping to find any kind of flaw I could with what I was doing...so that I could fix it.

I did all wheat with a gratzer. Very tasty. I did a small batch BIAB style so I didn't have concerns about the mash or sparge getting stuck but I would probably use some rice hulls on a larger batch in the MLT just to make sure there's no risk of getting stuck.

I think it's a fluid-mechanical/sparge issue rather than a mash/enzymatic issue. As far as I know, rice hulls don't contribute any sugar, they just make your grain bed more porous so the sparge flows efficiently.

Wheat is a very protein and starch heavy grain with no hulls. Rye is even worse. To do a 100% I would seriously pummel the protein in the wheat or do BIAB. You do that with a long rest at 122 and a double decoction mash. That will really cut down on the sticky long chain protein which gum up mash tanks. I would want rice hulls on hand to mix in if there is a stuck sparge. Yes, rice hulls contribute nothing to the brewing process except the fact that they are a hull. Also they can leach tannins into the beer if you are pouring boiling water into your MLT without mixing etc, just like barley.

asterix404 said:

Wheat is a very protein and starch heavy grain with no hulls. Rye is even worse. To do a 100% I would seriously pummel the protein in the wheat or do BIAB. You do that with a long rest at 122 and a double decoction mash. That will really cut down on the sticky long chain protein which gum up mash tanks. I would want rice hulls on hand to mix in if there is a stuck sparge. Yes, rice hulls contribute nothing to the brewing process except the fact that they are a hull. Also they can leach tannins into the beer if you are pouring boiling water into your MLT without mixing etc, just like barley.

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I've been reading that the protein rests and decoction are for just that, breaking up the protein chains into smaller molecules to serve two functions.
1. To keep from sticking up the mash and
2. To keep the haziness longer in the beer.
Since I was thinking about going for something a little different here in trying to get a clearer, smoother beer, I was thinking no protein rest and no decoction so these proteins remained as longer chain molecules and settled quicker. If I sacrifice some ABV so be it. 20 lbs of wheat with 80% efficiency (which I can get BIAB with a steady mash temp) nets about 1.055-1.060 OG. 60% gets me about 1.045-1.050. Even if I drop ten gravity points I've still got enough ABV to make me happy. There will be room for tweaking and trying new things in my next batch...unless you guys can think of another reason I should do the protein rest and decoction (I'm thinking something disastrous like, not getting a good conversion or something)...and if so, please point it out so I don't make water instead of beer.

So not doing a decoction for a Heff is like not doing a single infusion for an English bitter. You technically get the same recipe, but it won't taste the same at all. Decoction mashing adds quite a lot of flavor to the beer and with such well modified malts, some argue that is all it adds.

I am not sure about haziness as that really comes from the very floctuent yeast strain staying in suspension. For a krystalweisse, I would cold crash the yeast at like.. 32 for a few days to coax the yeast into settling. Protein is needed to maintain a good degree of carbonation. Actually, when I do a protein rest and decoction I get beer which gets a really thick head but almost no carbonation on tap. The next heff I am going to make I will skip that rest all together and just double decoct. I would either decoct one or use meladonin (or whatever it is...) malt.

Thanks asterix. Sorry for the confusion but this is exactly the type of stuff I was looking for. You've been a big help!

Maybe I'll try both! I could use 20 gallons of beer!

Reading the book on brewing with wheat they say that the decoction helps stabilize the haze and also helps to bring out the clove character. I think US hefe drinkers tend to prefer the banana but in Germany it's all about the 4-vinyl guaiacol. Some say it's about the maillard reaction type things you get. I really want to try it. Have you ever had a fresh decocted hefe? I have not so its difficult for me to really say what the difference is until I do it

Anyway here is a recipe for an all wheat stout if you are interested.

OG:1.056
FG:1.010


grains

8.0lbs Pale wheat malt
2.0lbs Carawheat
.75lbs Chocolate wheat
2.0lbs flaked wheat

Hops

2.0oz Willamette whole leaf (60min)

Yeast

Wyeast 1728

Mash
10min at 122
60min at 158

http://www.homebrewchatter.com/board/showthread.php?t=14531

Go pick up a weihenstephan heff. This is the best example of a German (note NOT Bavarian) heff. You can actually get the yeast they use which is very nice. Also you want to do a rest at 113 to really increase the clove producing acid.

This is screaming for an experiment.

4 x 10 gallon batches (I might have to get a small boil kettle and scale this down...40 gallons of beer is a lot)

The main recipe will be 20 lbs of malted wheat and about 6 oz of saaz hops added at a rate of about 2 at 60 min, 2 at 30 min and 2 at 5 min, for balance, depending on the preboil grav according to this chart:

understanding the relationship between hops and malt

fermentation will be at approx 65-70 F primary with an ale yeast (probably Safale) and secondary at about 50-55 to settle the proteins out.

I will try to keep the above as consistent as possible and here will be the differences I'm testing:

Batch 1: No decoction, no protein rest
Batch 2: 1 gallon pot decoction approx 20 min, no protein rest
Batch 3: No decoction, a protein rest at 122
Batch 4: 1 gallon pot decoction approx 20 min, protein rest at 122