De-Gassing the mead

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JoshuaWhite5522

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So I'm curious about when to degas. I've heard that it should be done when going to secondary. I've also heard to do it just before you bottle. Which is the best time for a mead? Also I've heard of CO2 toxcity but am not sure as to how much effect it really has. So then could it be a good idea to vigorously swirl the must around during without removing the airlock to help both bring the yeast back into suspension, and help the carbon dioxide out of the must? Or would this lead to staling from oxidation, even though the active yeast should have pushed all the O2 out of the carboy?
 
My plan is to stir it up during the initial fermentation, then again at each racking. I actually don't know how many times to rack for mead though. Apfelwein is the only wine I've ever made and I only racked once for that.
 
There is some new information about stirring (degassing) during primary that is a great read. Check the sticky "What I learned at NHC".

Overall, though, degassing a mead isn't necessary or encouraged after primary fermentation. Oxidation can ruin a mead.

The only time I degas a wine or mead or cider is if it's ready to bottle and it's "gassy" or bubbly. That's usually not the case in wines and meads that have been given enough time to clear. The co2 disipates with time. Rack quietly, without splashing, or aerating the mead. You definitely don't want to "splash rack" the mead.
 
Also I've heard of CO2 toxcity but am not sure as to how much effect it really has.

So little effect as to be difficult to even measure.
Yeast are quite capable of fermenting away at up to 7 atmospheres of CO2 pressure. At less than 1 atmosphere (in your fermenter under airlock), the CO2 doesn't even tickle them. Swirling the yeast up into suspension does have some benefit and will help the fermentation to complete a little bit faster. Swirling under airlock will also help de-gas faster once fermentation is finished, but just letting it sit at room temp for a few weeks will have it as flat an an old soda pop.
 
Unfortunetly the link on the sticky seems to be broken. However I do realise that I just need to let the mead be and not mess around with it, it will be fine in the end.
 
So there is no purpose to really degass or wine-whip a mead or wine, or strong cider? It doesn't contribute to yeast health and reduction of off-flavors?
 
I don't think it serves much purpose. However, I'm willing to change my mind if anyone can show me any scholarly work that demonstrates otherwise.

Medsen
 
Do Joe Mattioli's recipes count as scholarly? I think he calls for degassing in his grape recipe. Maybe not. But when I made it, for some reason, I was convinced degassing was necessary.

What ever happened to him? Did he die?
 
You aren't degassing during primary, really. I mean, yes you are driving off excess CO2 which is unhealthy for yeast, but since its quickly replaced, I think of it more as CO2 control than degassing.

After fermentation halts, you could degas if you wanted. With the info from the last NHC on narbonde 71-B, nutrient staggering, pH control and driving off excess CO2, our meads don't need a long secondary aging like in the past, which is where meads usually naturally gas off.

Also, its not exactly a flaw for a mead to be a little gassy, unlike a wine that *should* be utterly still.

many people enjoy a tickle on the tongue when drinking mead.
 
I mean, yes you are driving off excess CO2 which is unhealthy for yeast,

On what basis do folks say that at less than 1 atmosphere of pressure under an airlock that CO2 is unhealthy for yeast? Sounds like urban myth to me.

Also, its not exactly a flaw for a mead to be a little gassy, unlike a wine that *should* be utterly still.

many people enjoy a tickle on the tongue when drinking mead.

Many folks like pettilant wines.
 
/sigh

Go read the post "what I learned at the NHC.

/sigh

I did. I find nothing in it that shows any data to support the assertion that CO2 saturation of a must at atmospheric pressure causes any problem for yeast. The quote from Steve Piatz's hand out reads as follows:
Aeration of the Must
During the first days of fermentation it is helpful to ferment in a large open top vessel like a plastic bucket with a lot of head space. At least daily, you need to aggressively stir the must to drive out the CO2 and to allow oxygen to be infused. You can do the stirring with a spoon but be prepared for a lot of stirring, stir until bubbles are no longer released. These days I use one of the wine mixing wands and my electric drill. Start slowly as the first bit of stirring can create a lot of foam quickly. Once the foaming subsides, you can stir in the nutrients if the SNA schedule calls for it at that time. If you can, stirring several times a day is the way to go.

Before I start recommending that people spend a lot of time and effort to keep stirring a must until it stops bubbling, I'd like to have some scientific basis for doing so other than "'cause they said so at the NHC" even if the "they" happen to be some great mead makers.

I'm not trying to be intentionally argumentative, but I think some of this CO2 management falls into the heading of what was described in another presentation at the NHC entitled "Kitchen Science vs. Science Science."

Certainly aeration of a must is beneficial early in fermentation (The references and charts from the Handbook of Enology show this nicely), but even that is probably overblown quite often. From what I have been able to determine, yeast need about 10 mg/L of O2 to build maximal biomass. A wine must saturated with air will have about 8 mg/L (you can get higher with an oxygen through a stone). So good aeration at pitch, and at least one more good aeration early on during fermentation (books say on day 2) is probably enough to provide the yeast with all the sterols that they need. Aerating 2-3 times per day is probably unnecessary, and could be potentially detrimental, though I don't think it has been studied, and common practice suggests that it doesn't seem to harm the mead.

So I ask the question again - is there any scholarly data that suggests that aggressive CO2 elimination is beneficial?

Medsen
 
I've been doing a little more digging on this topic and I found an article from the American Journal of Enology and Viticulture (Am. J. Enol. Vitic., Mar 1980; 31: 46 - 52 ) entitled "Cultivation of Yeast Under Carbon Dioxide Pressure for use in Continuous Sparkling Wine Production."

The abstract reads as follow:

Batch fermentations of Montrachet wine yeast under carbon dioxide pressure in a wine medium containing 5% added glucose indicated the feasibility of cultivation of yeast in this manner as the initial tank in a continuous fermentation production of sparkling wine ("champagne"). At 0.6 atm (gauge) carbon dioxide pressure, there was a fourfold inhibition of growth rate, and the final maximum cell concentration was about half of the control. The onset of fermentation was delayed by carbon dioxide pressure; however, the maximum fermentation rate was not greatly affected.

Continuous fermentation, with dilution rates in the range of 0.015 hr-1 (with a constant volume of four liters and with flow rates in the range of 1 mL/min) showed the typical relationship between steady state cell concentration and dilution rate. The yeast were able to maintain steady state growth at each of the carbon dioxide pressures tested [up to 0.6 atm (gauge)], in spite of the inhibitory effect. From these results it was suggested that a dual-tank system, maintained at 0.3 and 5 atm (gauge) carbon dioxide pressures, with the second tank having six times the capacity of the first, could be used for continuous production of sparkling wine.

In the steady state condition, higher utilizations of glucose were found at the higher carbon dioxide pressures, even though a lower steady state cell concentration was maintained. The extra requirement for substrate at the increased carbon dioxide pressure was explained as an increased maintenance energy requirement at the higher carbon dioxide pressure.

The yeast cultivated in continuous fermentation at increased carbon dioxide pressures were used as inocula for bottle fermentations. Although no adaptation or mutation of the yeast to carbon dioxide pressure was evidenced in the continuous fermentations, the bottle fermentations with the yeast precultivated at the medium carbon dioxide pressure [0.3 atm (gauge)] showed a definite increased fermentation rate (as evidenced by rate of pressure development). The wines from the bottle fermentations were subjected to sensory evaluation and were found to be indistinguishable.

There is a neat chart in the article (a JPEG file) that I would like to display but I'm not able to attach it here (if someone else can, I'll be happy to forward it). It show that there is an impact of CO2 on the growth rate of yeast at relatively low pressures. While it may take 7 atmospheres (or more) of CO2 pressure to stop yeast outright, as little as 0.3 atm CO2 pressure can retard the growth rate. The chart shows that at 0 atm (like under airlock) the maximal yeast count is achieved at about 100 hours. With 0.3 atm pressure, it takes about 200 hours, and under 0.6 atm, roughly 320 hours to reach the same cell count. So even though the yeast are still able to achieve the maximal cell count, under pressure, it takes much longer.

This test was done with Montrachet yeast, not a Champagne yeast, so it is possible that Champagne strains might show much less sensitivity to CO2 pressure. I expect the sensitivity to CO2 pressure varies greatly between strains as most other things do.

The question still remains does active degassing allow better performance than fermenting at 0 atmospheres. Well this data suggests that if you could keep negative pressure on a batch, that it might be possible for yeast to achieve maximal cell counts in less than 100 hours, but that is by no means certain. Vigorous stirring will briefly lower the CO2 saturation, though it will rapidly build up again, so unless you stirred it continuously, I'm skeptical that it will have significant impact. Certainly any impact would be measured in hours, not weeks or months.

I'd like to see someone step up and test this out in a controlled trial. If anyone has any better data, please share it with us.

Medsen
 
Wow some great info Medsen. I'm wondering if people are simply misinterpreting what he said regarding the CO2 in the must. Could the need to drive out CO2 simply be so that you are allowing more room in the must for oxygen to be disolved? In that context it would make sense since a higher gravity ferment does require more O2
 
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