Anybody had attenuation problems with WLP400 Belgian Wit yeast?

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AggieChemDoc

AggieChemDoc

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I brewed 10 gal of belgian wit nine days ago. OG was 1.052, mashed at 152 deg F. I pitched a three day old 4L stirred starter of WLP400 into well aerated (60 seconds of O2) wort (2L in each 5g primary). Fermentation at 70 deg F.

Fermentation within 4 hours, blowoff within 12. Krausen began to fall two days later and on day four I racked to secondary. Was alarmed by my hydro reading of 1.030 (and learned not to trust falling krausen as a sign primary was over after 20+ beers of that being the case). Beer rekrausened and blew off again in 5 gal glass carboy. Now, 5 days later second krausen has fallen, airlock activity has slowed to 1x per few seconds, and my gravity is only 1.022, for 56% attenuation!

WTF!

Ideas? First time I've brewed with this strain, and I'm not liking what I've got going on! Hydro test tastes awesome, if a tad on the sweet side, but I'm worried. I'm going to keg 5 gallons and bottle 5 gallons... Don't want any bottle bombs on my hands.

I'm wondering if I didn't get complete conversion in the mash? I hit my temps and mashed 60 minutes, but I didn't test for conversion (never have).

Recipe follows:

Type: All Grain
Date: 5/8/2010
Batch Size: 10.00 gal
Boil Size: 12.84 gal
Boil Time: 60 min Equipment: Keggle and Coleman Xtreme Cooler
Taste Rating(out of 50): 35.0 Brewhouse Efficiency: 75.00
Taste Notes:

Ingredients

Amount Item Type % or IBU
9 lbs Pale Malt (2 Row) US (2.0 SRM) Grain 48.65 %
6 lbs White Wheat Malt (2.4 SRM) Grain 32.43 %
1 lbs 8.0 oz Oats, Flaked (1.0 SRM) Grain 8.11 %
1 lbs Cara-Pils/Dextrine (2.0 SRM) Grain 5.41 %
1 lbs Wheat, Flaked (1.6 SRM) Grain 5.41 %
2.00 oz Hallertauer [4.80 %] (30 min) Hops 13.6 IBU
2.00 oz Citra [11.10 %] (5 min) Hops 8.2 IBU
1.50 oz Coriander Seed (Boil 5.0 min) Misc
1.50 oz Orange Peel, Bitter (Boil 5.0 min) Misc
1 Pkgs Belgian Wit Ale (White Labs #WLP400) Yeast-Wheat



Beer Profile

Est Original Gravity: 1.052 SG
Measured Original Gravity: 1.052 SG
Est Final Gravity: 1.012 SG Measured Final Gravity: 1.022 SG
Estimated Alcohol by Vol: 5.17 % Actual Alcohol by Vol: 3.91 %
Bitterness: 21.8 IBU Calories: 237 cal/pint
Est Color: 3.7 SRM Color: Color


Mash Profile

Mash Name: Single Infusion, Medium Body, Batch Sparge Total Grain Weight: 18.50 lb
Sparge Water: 9.33 gal Grain Temperature: 72.0 F
Sparge Temperature: 168.0 F TunTemperature: 72.0 F
Adjust Temp for Equipment: FALSE Mash PH: 5.4 PH

Single Infusion, Medium Body, Batch Sparge Step Time Name Description Step Temp
60 min Mash In Add 5.74 gal of water at 163.8 F 152.0 F
Click to expand...
 
It is a slow fermentating strain. Don't worry. I have read numerous times that a slight swirling of the wort will help with attenuation. I have read of many 14 day ferments to get to FG.
 
Thanks, John. I did a search and you're right. I'll start a swirling regimen and wait it out. The beer tastes awesome, so I'm not too worried.
 
Yeah - I had the same problem (as you probably found with your search). My last batch with 400 I fermented at around 75F and it finished like a normal yeast. But it really takes it's time at cooler temperatures. I'm gonna go back to 410 in the future - that worked great for me last year.
 
My first batch with this strain actually _over_ attenuated (1.055 to 1.007) and took nearly 3 weeks. I know I mashed too low, but I didn't expect that. I washed that yeast and just did a batch with it again. I oxygenated this time and it finished much quicker; 1.051 to 1.013 in 5 days. I mashed higher and I'm hoping it doesn't dry out any more. Both were fermented at about 67F.
 
have never had ANY luck with this strain including 7 or 8 homebrewed wits and one 20 bbl commercial batch. in fact all of white labs belgian strains are pretty terrible...in fact i think all thier yeast in general is pretty bad, all of them seem to under attenuate and start slow unless you make a gigantic starter. go with wyeast.

another piece of advice would be to mash even lower if your comfortable with it. 148-150 is what i use with all belgian styles, and try to ferment a bit higher. the lower mash temp will help dry it out considerably. its not a style that should be sweet. my last commercial batch of wit i mashed at 150 and i fermented at 74 degrees and used the original celis strain. it came out pretty close to perfect. finished out at about 2 degrees plato.
 
I just finished bottling a belgian wit from a WLP400. Same problems. I didn't even get the normal krausen rise and fall. I thought I had a stuck fermentation, so I increased the temp up to about 70 from 66. That seemed to help, but the gravity took its sweet time to drop. WLP400 is a sllloooowwww yeast strain. You may want to try and rock it.
 
I just pitched WLP410 into my 1.040 wit about 30 hours ago at a temp of 70. It's acting like any WLP I've used; about halfway to high krausen now.
 
I've got a batch fermenting with WLP400 right now. Pitched the vial, along with 5 grams of Nottingham. 5 hours later it was fermenting like crazy. This was 7 days ago and it has slowed, but still going.
 
I'm kinda not liking this strain myself. It gives a very strong yeast flavor/smell to the beer. I make a starter with all my brews and this strain just gives off a smell that is very strong. I'm going to try fermenting at 65 (been fermenting at 70-72) to see if this keeps the smell down somewhat. I will say that I have not had any problems with attenuation, but then again I let my beers sit for at least 2 weeks before even taking a gravity reading.
 
+1 on the strong yeast smell using the WLP400.

I fermented my wit at about 68 degrees. It went from 1.054 to 1.012 in about 14 days.

I made a starter two days ahead of time out of 1/2 cup of DME and 2 cups of water.

About 30 hours later it was bubbling at a good pace.
 
andysim said:
+1 on the strong yeast smell using the WLP400.

I fermented my wit at about 68 degrees. It went from 1.054 to 1.012 in about 14 days.

I made a starter two days ahead of time out of 1/2 cup of DME and 2 cups of water.

About 30 hours later it was bubbling at a good pace.
Click to expand...

I think I will no longer use the WPL400 strain. I have 3 jars of washed yeast sitting, and I'm just debating on if I really want to use it again. I want to try it at 65F to see if it makes any difference, but from what you're saying . . . it doesn't look to good.

I will note though, that the taste is NOTHING like the smell. I actually threw out 2 of the first half pints because the smell was soo over-powering (and it was full of sediment). I then waited 8 days, and poured another one and it still smelled very yeasty but this time I tried it and . . . VERY NICE taste. Not to strong at all, and this beer turned out to be a great hot summer day beer. Very light but still has a lot of flavor to it, exactly what I wanted . . . I just don't like how strong the smell is on the head when pouring.
 
I love the beer.

Mine does not taste like the smell either.

Mine came out to about 5.4% ABV. You can drink five pints of this in one sittting.
 
Well I just pulled a pint out of the keg and MAN IS IT TASTEY!! The nose is still very strong, but the flavor is GREAT! Very subtle, and very refined. It has been sitting for quite some time though. Please do report back on the 410, I'm probably going to just use up the rest of my 400 and then try a new strain.
 
410 Report:

Huge citrus flavor. Very clean. Yeasty nose, as expected in a wit. Still very early, of course. It has only started secondary conditioning yesterday. As for how yeasty it is.. definately a yeasty strain, but again, this is what I expect in a wit.

Primary fermentation went about 2 days longer than WLP001 through WLP004 averaged. Fermentation oder was milky early, and then a little unpleasantly sour smelling for the last half, unlike other strains I have used. I never had an infection, but I thought that if the sour smell got worse then this was what lacto would smell like maybe.

There is so little complexity to this strain that I wish I planned some orange and corriander. It is very plain. I might do something to it in secondary.
 
I used WLP410 last summer because it looked like it would have less of that nasty clove character that many wheat yeasts produce.

I bottled way too early, it turned out. It looked like fermentation was finished, but I had not read all the posts about stirring the yeast yet, and giving it more time. It over-carbonated so badly that every bottle was a gusher.

I decided that I don't like wheats after all. 410 seemed to have less clove/banana than many, but I am not wild about that yeast taste. I will try a few more commercial examples this summer and see if it grows on me. I know some people use other types of ale yeast with good results.
 
Just sampled my Wit fermented with one vial of 400 (no starter) and a half pack of Notty, a few minutes ago. It was kegged this past Tuesday after 14 days in the primary. Tasted good yesterday, so I upped the CO2 to 30 PSI and disconnected the tank. Taste is VERY good, and this was fermented at 72 with some dips into the high 60's. Got the gas on at 12 PSI and will be "testing" all week. I am very satisfied with how this brew turned out and will be harvesting the cake.
 
yogensha said:
My first batch with this strain actually _over_ attenuated (1.055 to 1.007) and took nearly 3 weeks. I know I mashed too low, but I didn't expect that. I washed that yeast and just did a batch with it again. I oxygenated this time and it finished much quicker; 1.051 to 1.013 in 5 days. I mashed higher and I'm hoping it doesn't dry out any more. Both were fermented at about 67F.
Click to expand...

How did it turn out and what were your old and new mash temps?

I did a Belgian Wheat mashed @ 150F.
OG 1.0047 --> FG 1.007 for 85% attenuation.

I made a 1L starter, and the starter had blow-off. Temp @ 68-70; activity began quickly (~8 hours). Gave it a swirl after a few days and got blow-off in the fermentor. Seems to be finshed at 3 weeks.

I'm going make Wit and pitch on the washed yeast, so I'd like to know how to get a higher FG...seems a little too high attenuation.

Also made a Patersbier with 90% attenuation (OG 1.0048 ---> FG 1.005). Mashed at 147F though temp kept dropping. The software was saying I should be getting 1.011...anyone else have experience with such over-attenuation? Or is this what I should be expecting?
 
the lower the mash temp, the more ferment-able the beer will be. The higher the mash temp, it will have a stronger (bolder) body flavor, but be less ferment-able. Its just the nature of the AG. If you want a dry high ABV beer, you mash low and for a longer period of time (if needed) to allow for a more ferment-able and dried beer.

(I'm not the more knowledgeable here, but that is what I have gathered from my time doing AG.)
 
So I brewed a Witbier last week, keeping the saccharification rest at 152-155*F as compared to 150*F for my previous Belgian Wheat.

I used the washed WLP400 yeast from the Belgian Wheat for the Witbier. OG was 1.053....finished at 1.007 for 86% attenuation.

My thermometer is correct and I stirred well and checked temperature in several places...I'm confident my mash temp control is fairly precise.

Also I fermented at lower temperature (66-68*F) for the Witbier as compared to the Belgian Wheat (70-72*F).

The Belgian Wheat and Witbier have similar grain bills and I used a starter for the Belgian Wheat, so the pitching rates were comparable.

Maybe it's some other factor in my process that I'm missing. For some reason I keep ending up drier than I'd like. Even with higher mash temp and lower fermentation temp, I got even higher attenuation (86% for the Witbier vs. 84% for the Belgian Wheat).

Does anyone have experience with manipulating the attenuation of their beers?
 
I've brewed with 400 a couple of times and did the following:

1. Keep the fermentation at the temperature specified by White Labs which is 67-74 degrees. Personally, I've had luck by not stressing this yeast out. I start it at 67 and gradually raise it to 73 during fermentation so I stay within the parameters. I did a healthy swirl right when things looked like they were slowing down and it kicked back up and started chugging again. This yeast is slow as others have written about. Mine took just over 2 weeks on both batches to finish up. Both beers turned out excellent. I think people try to tamper with this yeast way too much. It's not 001. It can't operate at just any temperature and it does require 1-2 rousings to keep it in suspension. If you follow the recommendations you should have just the character you are looking for in a Witbier. I'm not sure if I would try this on any other style. The yeast profile is as complex as the style itself and is really designed for Witbier only.
 
To affirm the notion. WLP400 is surprisingly slow. Attached is a picture of my Belgian Wit. Very similar to the initial recipe posted. Smells dense and this is it fermenting on day 8 with no starter @70-73 degrees.
5 gallons took the WLP400 the other 5 took Safale S-05 in other carboy. In the S-05 carboy, the Krausin has fallen is has been quite for a few days now.
I'm sure the 400 is creating all sorts of delicious flavor compounds in its slowness.

FullSizeRender.jpg
 

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