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Dstreetbrew

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So I manage a resturant and this year for x-mass I made every one beer. My boss liked it so much he came to me about makeing some for the resturant... Dose any one know what restrictions there are as far as the resturant selling my beer.
 
Yes they are quite simple. Either you need to be licensed as a brewery or the restaurant needs to be licensed as a brewpub. If neither are willing to do that, the conversation ends there. It is illegal to sell homebrew unless you are a licensed brewery.
 
This must come up at least once a week. The simple answer is you cannot legally sell homebrew. Only beer that is made by Federally approved, licensed, bonded facilities may be sold to the market. State and local laws will also have to be conformed to and all taxes to Federal, state and local agencies have to be paid as well. Can I suggest a pinned answer to this question?
 
I would suggest contacting a local ABC representative. It just seems strange to me that you, as a restaurant manager (unless you don't serve booze) doesn't have access to this kind of information. Let alone your boss.

Specifically, you can't sell homebrew in the form of brewing it for your friends (like at the aforementioned holiday gift). You'll either need to be a licensed brewer or the restaurant needs to be a licensed brewpub.
 
Well I can get the info threw the ABC I'm sure of that. I just know I would get a faster anserw from this forum... Would the fact that we would just be selling very small batches of the beer make the process of getting the license any. More easy
 
I think the license is a matter of how much you brew (bbl/year) and some states define "brewpubs", "restaurants" and "bars" (beer/liquor/wine only, no food or alcohol sales % ratio vs food sales %) differently. I'm pretty sure all the other stuff with the gov't ruining it still applies regardless (taxation, insurance etc). Again, it's locality specific and the most applicable answer would be from your local ABC rep.
 
Doubtful. Think of it the same way as getting a liquor license. If you serve 12 drinks a month at your restuarant the process and cost is identical to serving 1200 beers a month. Local laws may make it easier, but federal will not.
 
Well it really depends on the state and local laws. When my hobby turned into a small business a lot changed.

First off consistency. You have to be sure you are brewing the same beer each time or consumers will be disappointed and unimpressed.

You will need to obtain an ABC license to not only sell beer, but call yourself a micro, nano, or brew pub.

You will need to provide exact gravity and declare exactly what abv your beer is so the government knows what you are selling, and they can tax you appropriately.

You will also need to check local laws and regs to ensure you are legally allowed to serve or sell beer in your establishment above a certain gravity. Some states do not allow beer to be sold at all that is over 8% abv. Others require you to purchase such beers at a state liquor store. Others have no stipulations. You also need to ensure you are not breaking any contracts with other breweries (the big 3 are big on this) saying you can only serve their beer in your establishment or they can sue you.

Luckily I live in CA and while it is the least small business friendly state in the union, the beer laws are pretty lax. That explains the over 300 craft breweries in this state. Other states while they may be more friendly to small businesses are less beer friendly. All we have to do is look at some of the ridiculous homebrew laws still on the books in some states. AL still has a ban on homebrewing last I checked, but the AHA and BHA is fighting this very hard.

If this is something you are serious about check with a local business attorney about the prep work, fees, taxes, and licenses. From there you will have to start setting up your brew house. Start shopping for equipment from breweries that are going out of business or are upgrading. Usually nano breweries start on a 10 bbl system. You will need to look into hiring assistant brewers and lab techs as well to conduct yeast and water analysis. All the research I've done shows no state allows you to sell "homebrew." while the pilot batches can be done at home on my 1100, the beer to be sold must be brewed on FDA approved equipment in government approved locals.

Be warned that I have never met anyone who started a brewery to become rich. After you've paid your staff, your distributors, suppliers, and taxes, plus the 16 hour long brew days 3-4 days a week you pay yourself just over minimum wage.

If experience and professional beer is your goal I recommend becoming an intern at a local craft brewery to see if this is something you really want to do. Pro brewing is not homebrewing, and many other factors come into play. Home brewers have much more freedom than pro brewers. There is an old saying here in the craft beer world, "if you've worked at san Francisco brewing company for two years and you still want to brew it is in your heart." the equipment and environment is much different. If you want to intern at a brewery don't expect to get paid in money, but rather knowledge. I have a mashtun that needs shoveling if this is the route you choose to go.

If starting from scratch is really the risk you want to take then you need to think about where the money will come from to setup shop. You need fermentation chambers, a brewing system, labs, brite tanks, packaging equipment, and of course someplace to put all this stuff. Then uncle Sam comes in to traipse through your brew house and make sure it's up to code. After that the government gets their taste. Here in CA a six pack of craft beer is about 8.00 and 25% of that is taxes. It's not just the consumer pays taxes by the way.
 
You will need to provide exact gravity and declare exactly what abv your beer is so the government knows what you are selling, and they can tax you appropriately.
Must be a state thing. Federally and by Michigan law, I'm taxed on barrels of production, not alcohol content.

Usually nano breweries start on a 10 bbl system.
Nanos typically use 3bbl system or less.

You will need to look into hiring assistant brewers and lab techs as well to conduct yeast and water analysis.
Lab techs aren't necessary, especially for a single brewing making beer for a sole restaurant. Neither is a hired assistant, yeast or water analysis.

Be warned that I have never met anyone who started a brewery to become rich. After you've paid your staff, your distributors, suppliers, and taxes, plus the 16 hour long brew days 3-4 days a week you pay yourself just over minimum wage.
Recall this model is about one person brewing for a single restaurant.
If experience and professional beer is your goal I recommend becoming an intern at a local craft brewery to see if this is something you really want to do. Pro brewing is not homebrewing, and many other factors come into play.
80% business skills, 20% about the beer.

It's not just the consumer pays taxes by the way.
Actually, the customer pays the taxes. Taxes are part of COGS, which are passed along the distribution chain to the consumer. In addition to owning a brewery dealing with beer tax, I also own a small firearms and ammunition manufacturing company that pays FET on those items as well (the ATF and TTB know me real well). FET is factored into the price I quote my firearm and ammunition distributors for my products, but those taxes certainly aren't coming off my bottom line. They are built into the price. Any business that doesn't factor taxes into the price and pass it along is run by morons.
 
Kind of related to this. My local Asian market sells this 80 proof Chinese "cooking liquid" that comes in 750s and 1.75s. In Kansas grocery stores can't sell liquor but that is how they get around it. I'm fairly sure it's local Chinese style moonshine...
 
By taxes I was referring to the taxes we pay to be allowed to operate in the state. Depending on your "green" level you are taxed simply for operating no matter the business. That gets passed to the consumer as well to make up for costs.

This is the main reason so many businesses, not only small, are leaving CA. CA used to be a huge agriculture leader in the US, but because of EPA regulations a new dairy can not open in this state. Old dairies must conform to green standards before they can continue to operate.

I would never operate without a full lab, staff, asst. brewer ect simply for the fact of consistency and because I don't want want to brew every single day. Lab techs must analyze water samples due to an ever changing water table. Yeast must be plated each day to ensure mutations have not taken place throughout the strain.

I suppose I could just fly by the seat of my pants, but that would not make me very competitive among the many craft breweries out here.

Just because you are making drinkable beer at home what is going to make the consumer drop 6.00 a pint on your beer over the other 24 on tap behind the bar?

CA is much different than most states with both firearms and alcohol. Cabellas refuses to open a store in CA because of this. When I buy ammo no matter the caliber or gauge I must pay an explosives fee. To re-load I pay an explosives fee on primers and federal is taxed when shipping primers and powder to CA. That's why ammo is up to 30% cheaper in NV and at gun shows.

When my wife and I lived in MT we could just go to cabellas and buy our tags, renew our license, and buy ammo no questions asked. I even got to transport my guns with little regulations. In CA for water fowl I pay the 30.00 fed stamp, 20.00 state stamp, pay for the conservation of the land where the blind is, pay club fees, pay taxes for DFG to pull my creds, and offer all private gate codes and keys to DFG officers so they can conduct random checks. Even if I own the land I am not allowed to hunt without approved weapons, ammo (steel shot), and appropriate fees paid to the gov. In MT a CCW was quite obtainable, but CA does not grant them period. The only reason I have mine was from working law enforcement.

The same could be said for just about anything from state to state. For instance: how often do you have to get your car smoged? What taxes do you pay for not having a "green" vehicle?

I didn't mean to hijack the thread with gun talk, but my point was simply to show that many states are almost like different countries at times.
 
Kind of related to this. My local Asian market sells this 80 proof Chinese "cooking liquid" that comes in 750s and 1.75s. In Kansas grocery stores can't sell liquor but that is how they get around it. I'm fairly sure it's local Chinese style moonshine...

Stuff like this usually has so much salt added to it that it falls under the same category as denatured alcohol or mouthwash.
 
I would never operate without a full lab, staff, asst. brewer ect simply for the fact of consistency and because I don't want want to brew every single day. Lab techs must analyze water samples due to an ever changing water table. Yeast must be plated each day to ensure mutations have not taken place throughout the strain.
I don't repitch so I don't worry about it. I've operated as a one man show for 4 years and haven't had issues. My water table draws from Lake Superior and is stable.

Just because you are making drinkable beer at home what is going to make the consumer drop 6.00 a pint on your beer over the other 24 on tap behind the bar?
Quality. My water is such that I don't need to worry about it.

CA is much different than most states with both firearms and alcohol. Cabellas refuses to open a store in CA because of this. When I buy ammo no matter the caliber or gauge I must pay an explosives fee. To re-load I pay an explosives fee on primers and federal is taxed when shipping primers and powder to CA. That's why ammo is up to 30% cheaper in NV and at gun shows.
There is no explosives fee on ammunition. There is no explosives fee on primers. There is a HazMat fee on primers. There is none for ammunition shipped packaged ORM-D. I'm not aware of any taxes on primers or powder to any state. I've done a lot of business with CA in the firearms/ammunition industry but won't anymore due to stupid shipping laws with the CFLC system.

The same could be said for just about anything from state to state. For instance: how often do you have to get your car smoged? What taxes do you pay for not having a "green" vehicle?
I never have to get my vehicles smog tested. I never pay additional taxes for having a "non-green" vehicle.
 
My point is I'm competing with as many as 100 craft breweries in as many miles. Most of which have their beer on tap or in bottles in just about every boutique pub and restaurant. If I walk into my local pub they have up to 27 beers from "local breweries" and as many wines from boutique wineries. I have to be sure to provide a top notch product to get consumers to select my beer over the 26 other taps staring them in the face. If the establishment does not sell a suitable amount of my product per month they have ten other breweries lining up to take my tap's place. The craft brew industry has exploded especially on the west coast, but with that comes a lot of competition. It is great for the consumer looking for 12 different west coast IPAs, but it also puts a bottle neck on the brewers. However; the good thing is most craft brewers do get together and share ideas, trade and sell equipment with each other, and usually usher interns from breweries to breweries. Most breweries here won't accept a brew master or asst. brewer without first going through the UC davis brewer's course or at least interning for a few years while working toward a microbio degree. The same was seen by gallo in the early 90s. They required all of their wine makers and microbiologists to have degrees in their respective fields.

It's been noted in this state that the days of someone with a good background in beer brewing and a natural talent for crafting a good beer going into pro brewing are long gone. I guess the same can be said for just about every industry out here. I remember a time when a police or sheriffs office would sponsor a recruit to get his POST with a promise of a badge upon graduation. Now those days are history. The only way into the field today is to put yourself through the academy, get a BS in administration of justice, and work as a reserve for free for a few years until you prove you can pass an FTO program. Maybe in four years or so if you are lucky when a full time spot comes open an agency will pick you up. It's becoming the same story in the beer world.
 
California has a history of it being a PITA to start a business, but when you're OK for operation, they back off.

The rest is business.

I am a Weihenstephan trained brewer. I'm not trained in business, I learned it the hard way.

I'm only 30yo, but I applied to a sheriff's office, they put me through the academy and I am a deputy. Full time salary, benefits.
 
Please stop with the "know-it-all" off-topic BS. Guns? Cars? Seriously? Thanks.



As was mentioned, laws vary so widely from state to state that you'll have to talk to someone in your own state who did the same thing you're hoping to do.

In Minnesota, a "basement brewery" is fine. You can get a permit cheap to make a limited amount of beer in your home, and sell it. In some states, you have to make 10,000 barrels a year to even become a nano brewery. In some states, you won't get far at all but in some states you will have it pretty easy. It just depends on where you live, really.
 
In Minnesota, a "basement brewery" is fine. You can get a permit cheap to make a limited amount of beer in your home, and sell it. In some states, you have to make 10,000 barrels a year to even become a nano brewery. In some states, you won't get far at all but in some states you will have it pretty easy. It just depends on where you live, really.

that's interesting! i'm gonna have to look into that. me and my wife always talk about our own li'l brew pub. between her cooking and my brewing, i think it'd be a hit! :ban:
 
In Minnesota, a "basement brewery" is fine. You can get a permit cheap to make a limited amount of beer in your home, and sell it.
That may be fine on a state level, but federal law prohibits a brewery from being located inside a house, so it would appear that will violate federal law.
 
That may be fine on a state level, but federal law prohibits a brewery from being located inside a house, so it would appear that will violate federal law.

Basic Brewing had a podcast a while back (like 4 years I'd estimate), with a buy who brews out of his home professionally. If I recall correctly, he was in Iowa. I remember his saying he had to get the zoning changed so that his garage was listed as commercial, but that was it.
 
Basic Brewing had a podcast a while back (like 4 years I'd estimate), with a buy who brews out of his home professionally. If I recall correctly, he was in Iowa. I remember his saying he had to get the zoning changed so that his garage was listed as commercial, but that was it.
Your garage is not your house. He brews in his garage professionally, not his home. His garage is a separately permitted structure not connected to his house. The ATF will not grant a brewing license for any structure that is a house or connected to a house. Period.

If you have a detached garage not connected to your house and that garage is properly zoned for a brewery, then it's legal to brew there and the ATF will grant a license for that premises. Brewing must be done in that garage, not in the house, in order for it to be legal.
 
I love these threads!! I love hearing about everybodys "crazy" ideas on how to "sell" homebrew because eventually someone WILL find a legitimate, legal loophole. The best one yet is the guy who runs a charter bus that serves alcohol(including homebrew). It falls under a different set of laws and no alcohol license is required since the alcohol is "free" when you buy a ticket on the bus. I think he even advertises it as a "mobile tap room".
 
Your garage is not your house. He brews in his garage professionally, not his home. His garage is a separately permitted structure not connected to his house. The ATF will not grant a brewing license for any structure that is a house or connected to a house. Period.

Since you brew commercially, I'd have to defer to you. But I've lived in apartments where the whole building was zoned commercial. Both uses are perfectly legal in NYC. How could they deny a permit to open a brewery in a commercial building with living space if it is legally zoned for commercial use in the locality?
 
No, they won't. But as evidenced by most of your posts on this forum, you won't stop trying. :D

I just find the laws/regulations that affect homebrewing and alcohol in general fascinating. So many of them are not based on any sort of common sense or reasoning. It seems that many of them don't change until people challenge them.
I dig the blog!! Brewing As Art seems like a very cool group!:mug:
 
It's true that even most homebrewing laws don't make a lick of sense. I can't remember which state off the top of my head, but I heard from a fellow brewer that it is illegal to transport your homebrew across the street to share with your neighbor. In AL it is still against the law to brew your own beer at home. Luckily the AHA is fighting tooth and nail against a lot of this nonsense.
 
Since you brew commercially, I'd have to defer to you. But I've lived in apartments where the whole building was zoned commercial. Both uses are perfectly legal in NYC.
There are different classes or types of commercial zoning. Breweries need to be permitted as some class of industrial commercial, like light industrial, heavy industrial, hazardous industrial. Apartment buildings and rentals are usually classified as commercial residential, meaning it's business property rented or leased for people to live in. They are a separate class of zoning. Each municipality has their own titles.

How could they deny a permit to open a brewery in a commercial building with living space if it is legally zoned for commercial use in the locality?
Because it's the type of commercial zoning class that matters. A brewery is a beer manufacturer and needs to be zoned as industrial commercial. The ATF has denied licenses to breweries with apartments above the premises, like turn of the 19th century style storefronts with living quarters above.

My village has no zoning ordinances and I had a hell of a time with the ATF because the "Zone" field on the property title shows "N/A", not applicable. I had to contact my state representative and federal judge to force ATF to default to county zoning regulations and issue my brewery license.
 
I can't remember which state off the top of my head, but I heard from a fellow brewer that it is illegal to transport your homebrew across the street to share with your neighbor.
I think that was Washington or Oregon. I remember them talking about it earlier this year on The Brewing Network. Basically homebrew has to stay in the home it was brewed in. The law got changed to allow it for tasting and stuff.
 
It's true that even most homebrewing laws don't make a lick of sense. I can't remember which state off the top of my head, but I heard from a fellow brewer that it is illegal to transport your homebrew across the street to share with your neighbor. In AL it is still against the law to brew your own beer at home. Luckily the AHA is fighting tooth and nail against a lot of this nonsense.[/QUOTE

This one of the reasons why I am an AHA member, to get rid of some of the antiquated laws pertaining to homebrewing. But lets face it....most of these laws aren't even on the radar of most politicians.
 
So I manage a resturant and this year for x-mass I made every one beer. My boss liked it so much he came to me about makeing some for the resturant... Dose any one know what restrictions there are as far as the resturant selling my beer.


#1 - Check into state laws. If you have seen beer wars ( if you haven't you should, it's on Hulu and Netflicks) it goes into the the 3 tier system ( brewer, distributor, retailer) which is in place from the federal government. The qualifications of when a brewer can skip the distributor varies state to state (if I remember correctly there is a brew pup in Austin that is currently fighting Texas's beer laws cause they can't directly serve their beer to the public) Some states have exceptions for skipping the distributor if you brew below a certain amount a year, some states it doesn't matter aka any beer sold has to go through a distributor. Once you figure out is you can legally sell beer by state law at your restaurant proceed to #2


#2 - I'm pretty sure in order be able to sell the beer you make you need to have a federal brewers license. Quite simply, no selling beer if the fed doesn't ok it. Now pending on the request, if you do get a license to brew "commercially" , it can still have limitations. For example, if the plan is to keep things in house, you might get a nano-brewery license which limit's you to the amount you can make. It may be easier to get a nanobrewey license as apposed to a microbrewery one, but then you are limited to 4 or less barrels or production.
 
I just find the laws/regulations that affect homebrewing and alcohol in general fascinating. So many of them are not based on any sort of common sense or reasoning. It seems that many of them don't change until people challenge them.
I dig the blog!! Brewing As Art seems like a very cool group!:mug:

Challenge away; it's the law, and in the aftermath you may be taking a federally funded vacation along with two of our Illinois governors.

It's got nothing to do with brewing, and everything to do with the law; nothing has changed about that since laws were invented, and you needn't fear this will change in your lifetime. Brew on.


"The laws keep up their credit, not by being just, but because
they are laws; 'tis the mystic foundation of their authority; they
have no other, and it well answers their purpose. They are often
made by fools; still oftener by men who, out of hatred to equality,
fail in equity; but always by men, vain and irresolute authors."

- Michel de Montaigne (1533-1592)
 
One of the crucial differences between brewing and distilling is that with distillation there is a real fire hazard. And to be honest, if some of the people I see on this forum took their bad practices to a still, I'd be a little nervous to have them as neighbors.
 
Challenge away; it's the law, and in the aftermath you may be taking a federally funded vacation along with two of our Illinois governors.

It's got nothing to do with brewing, and everything to do with the law; nothing has changed about that since laws were invented, and you needn't fear this will change in your lifetime. Brew on.


That is what I mean!! Many of the laws pertaining to alcohol and homebrewing lack any common sense. When people challenge these laws ,expose these laws, politicians take notice. Look at what happened in Oregon they got the homebrewing law changed AFTER they were called out on the carpet and had their event cancelled. I doubt if the law would have ever been changed unless it was challenged by homebrewers.
 
That is what I mean!! Many of the laws pertaining to alcohol and homebrewing lack any common sense. When people challenge these laws ,expose these laws, politicians take notice. Look at what happened in Oregon they got the homebrewing law changed AFTER they were called out on the carpet and had their event cancelled. I doubt if the law would have ever been changed unless it was challenged by homebrewers.

You just want to make sure you go about challenging the laws in the right way
 
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