Single Vessel, All Electric, NS, NC Brewery

IIRC, you're using a 15g vessel/basket, right? Any regrets? I think I remember you saying you wish you went up 80qts for the 10 gallon no sparge batches. I still want to be able to do on demand sparge water. I guess I could do what your saying, then sparge with water off the stove and see how I like it. I can add the RIMS later if I want....

But an all triclover RIMS would be sweeeeeeet.......

beerocd said:

Well, it's all about aesthetics. It therefore MUST be stainless and diamond plate.
Guy on HBA welded his out of 1" SS tube and said it's still plenty beefy.
Me, I've got two chrome nsf kitchen carts on wheels.

Click to expand...

I hear ya

I actually have some aluminum diamond plate I'm going to throw on top....

Steve. Hi Michael from Queensland Australia, I'm a BIAB brewer using an electric 40 Liter electric urn and have great results doing 23 Liter batches - I guess 5 or 6 US Gallons? I'm going to do (within the next 4 weeks - currently moving house or I'd be on to it right now) - a smaller version of what you propose. I'd been planning it for about a month now and was delighted to come across your thread. Great parallel thought streams trans Pacific haha.

My system will have:

The hot water urn which is 2400 watts
An inner 'pot' but solid sided with a false bottom
Lifting gear - just a double pulley attached to skyhook.

The current urn tap will be replaced with a three way ball valve which will direct wort either to a march pump positioned alongside the urn, or to a silicone tube into a plastic 'cube' for collecting the wort to cool to ferm temp.

From the march pump will run a silicone hose to run to the top of the urn / inner pot. It will just be hand held at this stage.


Method:
Do a normal full-liquor volume BIAB mash in exactly the same way as using a fabric bag.
At the end of the mash, start to hoist the inner pot
Turn on the March Pump and play the recirculating wort onto the top of the goods in the pot
Keep going till a grain bed forms and wort starts to run clear.

Now as you will realise the urn has a bottom element in the 'void' beneath the pot, which will now be switched on. As the wort recirculates over the element and continues to be played onto the surface of the goods, the temp of the goods will be raised to mashout.



At that point the March Pump is turned off and a manual sparge with some pre prepared liquor is undetaken to sparge out as much sugars as possible, to raise the level of wort in the urn to correct preboil volume.

Remove the pot, boil as normal, whirlpool and direct the wort through the other side of the 3 way ball valve into the cube (or chiller if I ever get one )


Notes:
I'm not going for pretty just yet. There is no real need for the inner pot to be SS and I'm just going to use food grade plastic bucket with a 'rosette' shape carved out of the bottom and a false bottom laid on top. The pot only needs to withstand mashout temperature at most, and many UK brewers not only mash but boil in food grade plastic buckets such as their bruheat electric masher / boiler.

The reason for the solid sides on the pot is that I want to get a grain filter bed happening. One of the criticisms of Brew in a Bag BIAB is the question of wort clarity going into the kettle, which it is claimed can introduce a lot of unseen polyphenols etc into the beer leading to unclean flavours and excessive chill haze. I looked at the crab cooker idea as well but a commercial brewer from Fosters critiqued the system and said that the fully - perforated inner vessel of the crab cooker would probably lead to wort finding a path of least resistance through the sides of the basket and would not lead to effective grain bed formation or sparging.

Anyway still early days and I'll post pics as I go.

Edit: the Fosters guy meant 'a fair bit of the wort' and not 'all of the wort' of course. He's actually one of the guys who wrote the BIAB article in the US BYO magazine last year, he got his ugly plastered over the page ;-) and he's a great source of all things BIAB.

Cheers
Michael

Wow, that's pretty cool. I've spent a little time over at AussieHomeBrewer.com, and saw that those urns are pretty popular.

If you look closely at the Spiedel's Braumeister: http://www.speidels-braumeister.de/index.php/language/en/XTCsid/pgm4hl7h5ao90719bimj6a3is2 you can see that it uses a similar heating element. I really dig how it sits under the basket, it's so much more stable than the straight elements we use. For the life of me, I couldn't find one that was affordable or powerful enough.

So could you boil in an urn like that? I'd really be interested in one of those for counter top small batches.....

BribieG said:

One of the criticisms of Brew in a Bag BIAB is the question of wort clarity going into the kettle, which it is claimed can introduce a lot of unseen polyphenols etc into the beer leading to unclean flavours and excessive chill haze.

Click to expand...

This is what people say when they have all sorts of extra equipment they need to justify having (you know, the "it won't work" crowd)....there is little to no evidence that clarity is an issue, especially after recircing, using whirlfloc, and cold crashing.

BribieG raises a good point. One I haven't asked yet.

Your plan is to recirculate right? The wort is going to take the path of least resistance and is not going to flow down through the grain bed like you want/need it too. A straight sided vessel is the best option, using the kettle kinda as a grant.

There were a few folks who theorized this a bit earlier in the thread...I think we chalked it up to just giving it a whirl and seeing what happens.

It's all just theory at this point....I kinda think the screen is going to provide enough resistance along with the grain that it will need to be recirced at a slow rate, or it will just spill over the top. Yes, I think the holes at the top of the basket will have a higher flow rate than the ones on the bottom, but not so much that the grain at the bottom isn't getting rinsed. Make sense?

I also have a 15" diameter perforated SS disc that should fit right in the bottom of the basket if I'm wrong. The 30x30 mesh will provide more resistance on the sides than the FB material, so the wort should flow top to bottom with some lateral flow. Also when I boil I should still have max contact with the hops because the screen would still allow circulation.

Just a theory at this point, though.

ScubaSteve said:

There were a few folks who theorized this a bit earlier in the thread...I think we chalked it up to just giving it a whirl and seeing what happens.

It's all just theory at this point....I kinda think the screen is going to provide enough resistance along with the grain that it will need to be recirced at a slow rate, or it will just spill over the top. Yes, I think the holes at the top of the basket will have a higher flow rate than the ones on the bottom, but not so much that the grain at the bottom isn't getting rinsed. Make sense?

I also have a 15" diameter perforated SS disc that should fit right in the bottom of the basket if I'm wrong. The 30x30 mesh will provide more resistance on the sides than the FB material, so the wort should flow top to bottom with some lateral flow. Also when I boil I should still have max contact with the hops because the screen would still allow circulation.

Just a theory at this point, though.

Click to expand...

Hey man I am all for it.

Sooooo, when can I expect a running setup???????

Ha, Ha, just joking.

So, here's the newest addition to the build...yes, I realize it's not actual progress, but it is a frickin' sweet part:



It's a sight gauge that has a magnetic readout....you're not actually seeing the liquid, it's more of an analog display. There's a floating magnetic ball inside that flips small flags over as the liquid level rises or falls. Here's the writeup: http://www.gemssensors.com/content.aspx?id=2146

These things are REALLY expensive, like >$1000.....I got one for $40.....couldn't resist it.

ScubaSteve said:

These things are REALLY expensive, like >$1000.....I got one for $40.....couldn't resist it.

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Looked like a column for a still to me. Then I thought it was your rims tube. So how does one go about getting a $960 discount on such an item?

ScubaSteve said:

So, here's the newest addition to the build...yes, I realize it's not actual progress, but it is a frickin' sweet part:


It's a sight gauge that has a magnetic readout....you're not actually seeing the liquid, it's more of an analog display. There's a floating magnetic ball inside that flips small flags over as the liquid level rises or falls.
These things are REALLY expensive, like >$1000.....I got one for $40.....couldn't resist it.

Click to expand...

That's bad a$$. Nice find.

beerocd said:

Looked like a column for a still to me. Then I thought it was your rims tube. So how does one go about getting a $960 discount on such an item?

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Watching Ebay like a hawk. Sometimes sellers are unaware of what they're selling

ScubaSteve said:

I just had a thought;

WHAT IF: You attached an IC/SS coil to the outside of the basket? Wrap the coils around the basket such that they are "in between" the holes and have your inlet/exhaust out the top such that they can go through the lid and use camlocks/qd's.....

Upsides:
1) It'd be a lot easier to do than installing an IC on the inside wall of the kettle....
2) Easier to clean (you have to clean the inside of hops anyway)...
3) Trub gets left in the kettle
4) Coils get sanitized the entire time you mash/boil, no "adding" an IC 15 mins prior

Downsides:
1) Could take up volume in kettle that would be used for wort. Depends on kettle size and OD of tubing used. 50' of 3/8" SS could probably be used with success while still allowing a good fit along sides and not displacing too much volume.
2) Should be drained pretty dry, as steam is a PITA with IC's. Not a huge problem though.
3) May not be AS fast as other methods, especially with 3/8" tubing.

Any ideas?

Click to expand...

I'm thinking of adapting my current cobbled together 3 gallon BIAB setup to something more streamlined like we're talking about here on 110 power. Anymore thoughts on integrating an IC on the basket? Would it have to be stainless or could it be done with a copper coil wrapped around the aluminum basket?

Why not make the IC the frame for the basket? Try to Silver Solder SS mesh to the inside of the IC, just try and make the IC as large in circumference as possible.

Copper or Stainless IC would work just as well, but I think the copper might need some reinforcement (soft metal) if it were to be used as the basket.

redrobot said:

I'm thinking of adapting my current cobbled together 3 gallon BIAB setup to something more streamlined like we're talking about here on 110 power. Anymore thoughts on integrating an IC on the basket? Would it have to be stainless or could it be done with a copper coil wrapped around the aluminum basket?

Click to expand...

I doesn't have to be stainless, but it would need to be durable if it were on the outside of the basket. If it were on the inside, I think it would be a PITA with the bag or screen, etc. Copper would definitely get crimped with repeated insertion of the basket.

I wouldn't get an aluminum basket unless you only plan on using a bag inside it. They're definitely cheaper than SS, but you'll have more difficulty with welding/brazing it (if that's the route you plan on taking).

wyzazz said:

Why not make the IC the frame for the basket? Try to Silver Solder SS mesh to the inside of the IC, just try and make the IC as large in circumference as possible.

Copper or Stainless IC would work just as well, but I think the copper might need some reinforcement (soft metal) if it were to be used as the basket.

Click to expand...

If you're a trailblazer, you might consider no-chill. I'm tasting my first no-chill right now, and it's crystal clear and tasty....those Aussies might be on to something.

You might consider 3/8" rigid copper....solder up a nice basket frame (I have some ideas if you're interested); maybe solder the screen in too. It doesn't have to chill in 8 mins like some people do....I have a feeling you could pull it off in 15 mins if you recirced while you chilled....plus the basket might filter some cold break.:rockin:

ScubaSteve said:

IIRC, you're using a 15g vessel/basket, right? Any regrets? I think I remember you saying you wish you went up 80qts for the 10 gallon no sparge batches.

Click to expand...

Yeah, I wish I'd got a 20 gallon pot. As is, I do partial mashes. Well, "mostly mashes" I use 3-6 pounds of DME.

Other than that - which isn't actually a problem - I love my system. I can brew and not have to keep a constant eye over it. I even rigged up some "gallows" that I use to drain my basket of grains above the kettle and just leave it hanging there until cleanup time.

So I got the liquid level indicator shown above, but I can't really use it in this build It's beautiful and sturdy as hell, but due to the height of the inlet and outlet, there's not a whole lot of range it covers. In other words, it won't register until the pot hits ~3 gallons, and only goes up to 7 gallons or so. I could install it higher up, so it doesn't begin until 5 gallons, but I'm only getting information on the next 5 gallons or so. It's designed for a short, very wide tank.

Maybe I can install it in my small tabletop rig.....or maybe I should just sell it.....

I guess I'll have to go back to the drawing board....i'm thinking about soldering in a street elbow at the bottom and top edges, adding compression fittings, and some sort of glass or tubing. I might be able to shield in an attractive way, not sure yet.

I also have one of these:





But it's brass. I guess I could polish it up and still make it look classy.....it'd be the right height and accurate, for sure.

ScubaSteve said:

Maybe I can install it in my small tabletop rig.....or maybe I should just sell it.....

Click to expand...

You should just give it to someone close by, who can incorporate it into one of their HUGE keggles. We can even call it a loan if you ever wanted it back. :fro:

bakins said:

Yeah, I wish I'd got a 20 gallon pot. As is, I do partial mashes. Well, "mostly mashes" I use 3-6 pounds of DME.

Other than that - which isn't actually a problem - I love my system. I can brew and not have to keep a constant eye over it. I even rigged up some "gallows" that I use to drain my basket of grains above the kettle and just leave it hanging there until cleanup time.

Click to expand...

So, do you think if you suspended your basket over the kettle and poured some hot water over it, that you could eliminate the DME?

This is essentially what I plan on doing, i've come to the realization the RIMS on-demand water heater is a luxury. I can use a pot of hot water from the stove in the interrim, and add the RIMS at a later time with little difficulty.

Curious if there are any updates on this thread. I've got my tax return and I'd like to emulate this project.

Well...I decided to build the stand out of some nice cedar. I think it looks really classy. I didn't want to spend a whole bunch of money and time making a ss stand. I know how to work with wood, and I have the tools for it. Plus, I was going to put wood on the outside of the tank anyway.

I'll post pics of the stand build soon....gotta get my camera back from a buddy.

ScubaSteve said:

I didn't want to spend a whole bunch of money and time

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Isn't it too late for those words to be coming outta your mouth...
Also a little contradictory to your " it's all about the bling" statement a while back.
So, no diamond plate?

There's shall be bling....oh yes, there shall.....

But the stand alone was going to be a PITA and I wanted to make some sort of progress. I couldn't add fittings to the kettle until I had a stand, so this was what I did. It looks really nice; the cedar with tung oil is really attractive.

I plan to use triclovers for pretty much everything, including a sight glass, sight gauge, in-line hopback, all copper cfc, and a little giant 3-md-hc pump. I was going to get a BCS-460, but I think if I'm only running one element, a PID will work well. I may still do a BCS depending on budget.

The footprint is 24"w x 24"d x 24"h. With the kettle, the height gets to 47". This thing is pretty dang compact considering it can do 10 gallon batches ad then roll into a closet. It is also large enough for me to upgrade pots later.....I could probably go up to 100 quarts.

Quit farting around and post some pics!

So, I got some new tools, and let me tell you....having a compound miter saw is freakin' awesome! Precision is a beautiful thing.

Here's more....I added a keg on top for kicks...but I plan on using an Italian kettle. It's big enough to upgrade to a 100 qt kettle in the future. I am finishing it with tung oil...when I get a few coats on it, I'll post pics of that.

Nice work, too bad you didn't live closer... ...I have 2 Compound Miter Saws!

I had been needing new tools for a while. When I made my original wood rig, I used a circular saw. It took twice as long to measure and cut....not to mention it was much more dangerous. The Hitachi was <$100, is pretty accurate, and has a 5 year warranty. I'm pretty happy with it....haven't had to break out the table saw yet!

I plan to make fold down work surfaces on the sides that fit flush...kinda like an access panel. As for the front, I'm thinking of doing some kind of fold out control panel. I have some aluminum diamond plate....think it'd go with cedar?

I may just do a wood stand yet.......

That looks good. Nice job.


I have that saws big brother. I love my Hitachi.

ScubaSteve said:

I have some aluminum diamond plate....think it'd go with cedar?

Click to expand...

Pick either horizontal or vertical lines and cover it with DP. It'll look slick.
I'd guess since you are probably gonna have vertical slats on the kettle and maybe DP isn't an option there. Do DP on the horizontal wood of your stand.

Uhhh, not the flat shelving part. Just the face.

I could keep editing this to make it clearer, but... it just keeps getting worse.

Looks awesome. I want to see how this builds out because I plan to copy you. My single vessel all electric build now has a budget. Now I need parts and a plan...:rockin:

So, wouldn't you know it....I found a <$100 SS cart with the perfect dimensions. I'm torn, because the cedar looks really nice finished, but the SS cart is what I had originally planned.

Stainless is much easier to clean!

I was already going to put a layer of reflectix around the vessel, and cover it with wood planks. So I guess it's gotta match.

Even though it works really well, I can't stand the look of bare reflectix and aluminum tape.

The damage is done; I shall go forward with the build. If I can't stand the wooden table, I can just swap it right out.

For all you stainless addicts, I'm going to be making a large triclover purchase soon, to include a sight glass (as opposed to a sight gauge). I already have some amazingly blingtastic diaphragm valves I haven't really advertised. Hastelloy C, baby.....

Okay, I realize I turned some people off by not going with a stainless stand. Maybe this will redeem the build

What, no plate chiller??!! ;0)

Originally, I planned on using the BCS-460 for control. Now that I'm pretty sure I'll only use 1 5500w 220v element, what PID would you recommend?

(even though a rims for on-demand hot water and sparging WOULD be awesome)

ScubaSteve said:

Originally, I planned on using the BCS-460 for control. Now that I'm pretty sure I'll only use 1 5500w 220v element, what PID would you recommend?

(even though a rims for on-demand hot water and sparging WOULD be awesome)

Click to expand...

Auberins SYL-2352 seems to be the best one to get for our purposes. I am planning on ordering one of these up for my 5500W element after I purchase my pump fittings this week.

So, I got some burly casters and finished staining the wood with tung oil. Here's how it looks with the sun setting on it: