Single Vessel, All Electric, NS, NC Brewery

[ScubaSteve]

+1 vote for stitching your videos together into one.

Looks awesome! I was thinking that you may have to resort to another vessel to hold your hops, as the mash filter and hop filter are performing two different tasks. One is filtering water, the other is filtering hops. Also, your hop filter doesn't really need to be so large, or so robust, so I was thinking of something similar to a tea strainer, but on a larger scale to accommodate more hops.

I definitely agree that they are performing 2 different functions, that most of the challenge....but one thing I'm thinking is that the hop vessel DOES need to be large, because I am trying to capture the benefits of free floating hops. When you put them in a bag they tend to become a "softball" and I'm pretty sure you're not getting as much utilization; especially when the pores of the mesh bag are immediately clogged by pellet hops, forming a "skin" that prevents good circulation.

 

[jeffmeh]

I definitely agree that they are performing 2 different functions, that most of the challenge....but one thing I'm thinking is that the hop vessel DOES need to be large, because I am trying to capture the benefits of free floating hops. When you put them in a bag they tend to become a "softball" and I'm pretty sure you're not getting as much utilization; especially when the pores of the mesh bag are immediately clogged by pellet hops, forming a "skin" that prevents good circulation.

In the spirit of continuing to follow and eventually pirate your experience, I am extremely curious as to whether you can find an "ideal" mesh size that works well for both the mash and the hops.

On my next BIAB run, I may clean the bag after the mash and reuse it for the hops, and see how well it works. I have been having a few problems draining the wort from the kettle, from both the hot break and the hops, and when I get around to building the new rig I want to make sure that I solve that. I am not really picky about any of the kettle trub making into the fermentor, but I certainly want to avoid a clogged line.

FWIW, I use Irish Moss in the boil, drain directly into a Winpak for no-chill, and ferment right in it. After 3-4 weeks, I cold-crash, add gelatin after a few days, and siphon into the keg with a 1-gallon paint strainer over the input side of the auto-siphon. No matter how much gunk makes it from the kettle into the fermentor, it always settles out to yield clear beer.

Thanks again, oh pioneer.

 

[fugazzi]

I definitely agree that they are performing 2 different functions, that most of the challenge....but one thing I'm thinking is that the hop vessel DOES need to be large, because I am trying to capture the benefits of free floating hops. When you put them in a bag they tend to become a "softball" and I'm pretty sure you're not getting as much utilization; especially when the pores of the mesh bag are immediately clogged by pellet hops, forming a "skin" that prevents good circulation.

Perhaps something like a vegetable steamer basket would work. Add some legs so it sits above the element, the bubbles can go around the rim, agitate the hop matter, and when the element is turned off, the sludge can settle on it.

 

[ScubaSteve]

In the spirit of continuing to follow and eventually pirate your experience, I am extremely curious as to whether you can find an "ideal" mesh size that works well for both the mash and the hops.
QUOTE]

As am I...I am optimistic and think there IS a happy medium. There must be a mesh that can do a mash and also filter out the coarse matter in the pellet hop sludge without getting clogged. Then you could have something a bit more fine later on in the process. At least the overall bulk of it would be taken care of. McMaster sells a sample pack of mesh for like $20...that'd be a great way to do some tests....and you'd definitely be able to use the mesh for other stuff.

 

[ScubaSteve]

Alright y'all.....have a look at Gen 2 of THE BASKET!!!!

 

[jeffmeh]

Alright y'all.....have a look at Gen 2 of THE BASKET!!!!

Looks great! Let us know how well it works out.

 

[klyph]

The design looks much improved, will you be using the fine screen bottom during the hop additions or just run it as is?

 

[ScubaSteve]

I'll just run it as is. The fine screen flipped up during the boil and became a joke in rapid fashion. The only thing that saved me was having filtration at the drain and hopback. Next beer I do will probably be an Arrogant Bastard clone....lots of hops, but not nearly as much as the last brew.

 

[ScubaSteve]

Okay, so I used the 6 mesh 2 layer setup yesterday doing an Arrogant Bastard clone. Five ounces of Chinook pellets. The bottom of perfed SS stopped a fair amount of sludge, but the screen on the side didn't stop any. The mash went pretty well, but I could see a fair amount of grain had made it through.....the mesh is simply too big! Two layers of 6 mesh doesn't equal 12 mesh. It just creates an area for stuff to get trapped in. I had a hell of a time cleaning the basket. SO, I need to change the mesh. I had quite a few clogs, but my SS scrubbie in the hopback module caught a lot of it. The perfed SS drain cover still stopped quite a bit of material....which is also contains quite a bit of hot break and "oatmeal" from the grain that made it through.

I want to go slightly smaller than the hole size on the perfed SS (3/32", which is 0.094"). It works out to be somewhere around 10 mesh....depending on the wire diameter. I'd like to keep the screen durable...0.028" wire diameter is very nice; I think I can go a little thinner and not sacrifice much.

The trick is to not go so small with the opening size that I'm back in the same boat with clogging the boil.

So here's what I'm thinking: Bazooka screens are 16 mesh, and they stop grain well but tend to lock up with pellets. So I need to go a little bigger. 10 mesh may still be too big. So I'm thinking of 12x12 mesh with a 0.018" wire diameter for an opening size of 0.065". Still 3 times bigger than the 30 mesh I started with (0.021" opening) and about half the size of the 6 mesh (0.139" opening).

What do you guys think? (yes, I know I'm collecting various sizes of wire mesh...but in this hobby, it WILL come in handy!)

 

[Bachhus]

Do you think the 16 sized mesh would still be too small even though you should have a lot more surface area on your setup over the Bazooka screen? I think the smallest you can go with keeping the ability to flow your wart is obviously the goal to screen out the most junk. If 16x16 seems to filter the material than maybe having more surface area on your setup will solve the flow problem the Bazooka has with getting clogged.

Mark

 

[ScubaSteve]

Do you think the 16 sized mesh would still be too small even though you should have a lot more surface area on your setup over the Bazooka screen? I think the smallest you can go with keeping the ability to flow your wart is obviously the goal to screen out the most junk. If 16x16 seems to filter the material than maybe having more surface area on your setup will solve the flow problem the Bazooka has with getting clogged.

Mark

EXCELLENT point. I was thinking about this....put very simply, if the screen clogs, it's doing its job!

I feel pretty confident that the 16 mesh will stop the grain. The pellet hops are a whole different story. But if they stay in the basket, then they're still swimming in ~70% of the boil volume, very much unlike a nylon mesh bag which are way too restrictive...which is kind of the point of this whole project....getting away from nylon bags and having a single point of use for grain and hops.

The perfed SS bottom did a great job of allowing the boil to rise right through; no volatile eruptions around the sides. That problem is solved.

Now, I need to find out what size mesh will keep MOST of the pellet matter in the basket...because if too much gets through to the hopback module (like this last brew), I'm going to be having to fiddle with stopping the pump, detaching the module, and completely washing it out. I will say this though, the SS scrubbie has done a great job....I just jam it right in there. But it becomes a solid mass o' hops if too much gets down the drain.

I need to think about this...if I get greedy and go too fine, i'll still have to deal with hauling a basket full of wort out of the kettle and waiting for it to slowly drain. If I go too coarse, I'll have way too many annoying equipment failures...in which case I might as well get rid of the plate chiller and go with an IC.

 

[klyph]

Have you considered making a hop trap and only using the basket for the mash? That triclamp filter unit could be fitted with a fine screen basket in place of the scrubby and then you could recirculate the boil through that filter basket until it was loaded with hops, then either dump it, or if it's caught all the hops you need it to, bypass it and start cooling.

Is your unit the same one St Pat's sells?
http://www.stpats.com/sanitaryfittings.htm#Filter/Strainer
They have an insert of both coarse perforated for grape seed removal, and a super fine mesh for milk, I bet you could come up with a similar solution that would trap all the pellet hops in your filter cartridge and save you the trouble of making the basket turn double duty.

 

[ScubaSteve]

You'd be amazed at how quick the screen/filters will clog if you don't hold back the bulk of the sludge. The trick is to keep as much in the kettle before it ever goes down the drain. It's a PITA to disconnect the hopback, (actually a millipore filter housing) especially when it's full of hot wort.

I've considered creating my own "cartridge" based on the various sizes of screen I have....kinda like a coarse to fine graduation with an inch in between....all meant to fit in the hopback.

I'm a stubborn bastard. I need to replace the screen anyway, because it's too coarse for the grain. So I figure I'll go with 12 mesh and that'll catch way more hops than this past brew. If I can hold back say 70% of the hops in the basket, and a bit more in the kettle (the drain has a filter)....then the hopback should be able to do its job without failing several times in the brewing session.

The thing is, the plate chiller is worthless because I can't take advantage of its speed/efficiency if the pump can't push the wort through the prefilters. So if I can only partially burden the hopback, everything will be great. The chiller is an absolute beast if I'm going full court press....it's 3/4" ports allow a LOT of flow, and it's being pushed by a powerful pump. I've never overchilled until I got this thing!

Now, I just need to make the maintenance/upkeep easier or I'm going to get fed up with it and go back to an IC or chillzilla.

 

[Bachhus]

Do you HAVE to use pellets? leaf or whole would be caught by whatever you do for the grain alone. I know you get better performance from pellets but figured I would ask. I agree there has to be a happy medium for catching most of it.

I believe Bobby_M built a hop screen project for use with a dip tube. I think he recomeded a 18x18 or so the last go around. I think a 16x16 or even a 18x18 mesh would work well given that you would have an entire basket of it. I would think it would allow enough surface area to get the majority of the wart through. Like you said, if its clogging then its catching what you don't want going through your pump and chiller.

I'm eagerly awaiting you to find the magic combination so I can copy it

 

[ScubaSteve]

Do you HAVE to use pellets? leaf or whole would be caught by whatever you do for the grain alone. I know you get better performance from pellets but figured I would ask. I agree there has to be a happy medium for catching most of it.

No, I actually prefer whole hops.....but i want to build something that can multitask. I would probably have less headaches and more money if I did regular BIAB with curtain material....but I'm kinda committed at this point. I'm getting close

 

[ScubaSteve]

And here we are....GEN 3 of THE BASKET!!!!

 

[TheFlyingBeer]

And here we are....GEN 3 of THE BASKET!!!!

That's some purdy SS you got there! When is your next brew so you will know how it works under pressure?

 

[Bachhus]

Looking good, that looks like a nice medium. Did you get this 12x12 at Mcmaster Carr?

 

[ScubaSteve]

Yup, got the 12x12 from McMaster.

FWIW, I am now drinking the Arrogant Bastard clone I did using the 2 ply 6 mesh. There was a LOT of grain that made it out into the boil....I strained most of it out (at least I think I did) but the beer has a very tannic flavor to it. So I guess I'll chalk it up to experience and drink the beer all by myself. It's not terrible, I just wouldn't share it. It seems to be cleaning up with time, so maybe it's just young.

That being said, the Modus Hoperandi Clone I did for my first batch is AWESOME. Like sucking on a grapefruit and eating bread at the same time! I'm stil dialing in small stuff (and working on lots of other projects) and I think I'll be doing another batch soon with the Gen III basket. Will post pics!

 

[ScubaSteve]

UPDATE:

The 12 mesh STILL let an unacceptable amount of grain and hop matter through. It was much better than last time, but I still had problems with the finer grain particulates getting into the boil. A little bit is fine, but this was like oatmeal floating on the surface!

An additional discovery I made, was that the fine screened gasket in the hopback module was causing more problems than it was fixing. So, I just kept the SS scrubbie in there and used a screened gasket with much bigger 1/4" holes. The plate chiller tolerated it fine, and the flow was really fast.

At this point, I'm getting close to throwing in the towel and just using a bag....if you're reading this massive thread and want to learn from my mistakes, I'd say 20x20 is probably the way to go. 30x30 is just too fine; the boil won't make it through...and anything less than 12 mesh is going to cause serious clogging/tannic flavors due to grain in the boil.

 

[wyzazz]

FWIW, I appreciate the amount of time, research & money you've parted with to get to this conclusion. I guess sometimes simple and low-tech really is the way to go.

 

[ScubaSteve]

Here's some more video of the rig in action, I added a nice loc-line recirc manifold....it works awesome! :

 

[BrothOfVigor]

Boy did this thread reach a post limit or what? The silence is killing me! I hope I'm just the blind fool who has missed the follow-up thread.

This is a great build, and I have to say your enthusiasm is appreciated. I've been contemplating a build very similar and I'm glad to see the idea is not new (and I wont have to be the one troubleshooting all the R&D ), you've brought up a lot of new scribbles on my notepad that I must credit to your experiences.

In the realm of sparging from your basket, how did the third model work out for you? I absolutely love the little plastic ball-joint doohickey thing you have on your lid; much simpler than the SS contraption I had been thinking of. What is that product? Have you tried a little compression on the grain bed to release some juices before the flush with clean water?

I noticed you bit the bullet and used a hop bag. Has the non-elegant solution helped your pellet woes?

How has your efficiency on the rig been performing? And as a side note, I've noticed you have a fair amount of lines for your wort to be running through either due to mash circulation or chilling. Have you calculated the volume for all of these lines at the appropriate times to correct for your bulk volumes? What volume is your system eating up? Have you had better luck getting a complete wort drain?

Thanks for any updates and keep up the fantastic brewing!

 

[TopherM]

Steve, I followed your BIAB recirculating rig most of the way. Question, after all is said and done, what mesh size do you thing would make the best mesh basket JUST for the mash? You seem to teeter between 16 and 20 mesh size at the end of your thread. I would not be filtering hops, just recirculating wort from the mash through a mesh mash basket.

Thanks in advance for the info!

 

[wyzazz]

Boy did this thread reach a post limit or what? The silence is killing me! I hope I'm just the blind fool who has missed the follow-up thread.

I do know that Steve sold some of the parts used in this build a few months back, I don't know if that has halted his brewing on this system or not but I haven't seen too much of him on HBT in a little while.

 

[ScubaSteve]

Nah, I'm still alive Got away from brewing for a while....life got in the way, and my interests started to stray once I had pretty much built the system (minus a few filtering issues). I ended up selling off my stuff and getting into machine tools....I am rebuilding a lathe and mill right now....plenty to keep busy with there

I still am not 100% sure of the magic number, but it lies somewhere between 20x20 and 30x30 mesh. THESE GUYS have been discussing the proper filtration size for pellet hops in a smaller drop in basket. It seems 350-400 microns is about right but I don't know what that translates to in "grid" size.

 

[sudbuster]

Nah, I'm still alive Got away from brewing for a while....life got in the way, and my interests started to stray once I had pretty much built the system (minus a few filtering issues). I ended up selling off my stuff and getting into machine tools....I am rebuilding a lathe and mill right now....plenty to keep busy with there

Steve,
I followed your build from the start and you had a lot of fun with it it seems. Hope you got most of your investment back. As an OLD machinist, I'm with you on your interest in machining. Good luck and props on your build...

 

[ScubaSteve]

Steve,
I followed your build from the start and you had a lot of fun with it it seems. Hope you got most of your investment back. As an OLD machinist, I'm with you on your interest in machining. Good luck and props on your build...

Welllll...I got MOST of it back. When it comes to Ebay and Craigslist, people are looking for a deal. I sold my stuff off at prices that most of us would gloat about...I guess that's how it goes. BUT, I have a Van Norman 12 mill and a 10" Sheldon lathe......so I guess it all evens out