BLING BLING Electric HERMS Conversion

The Pol · Jan 3, 2009

jay672 said:
Man thats a sweet setup, thanks for sharing. I saved the thread to my favorites dont really all understand it yet as i just sort of skimmedover it but being in an apt i have enough room would be great to set something up to do full boils inside so im definatly gonna refernce this when i get that stage of setup. Thanks again.

If you can use a dryer outlet or something of that nature in the apartment, youd be golden, otherwise, you will need to find a source for your 240VAC.

kal · Jan 3, 2009

The Pol said:
I have thought MANY times about doing 10 gallon batches, but I won't, it is my personality. I like MANY different types of beer, and I LOVE to brew...

Easy solution: Throw more parties/have more drunkard friends. (Works for me).

Kal

The Pol · Jan 3, 2009

My friends and I are all pilots, hard to organize parties.....

conpewter · Jan 3, 2009

well I decided to go electric for my HLT and boil kettle today (Was planning on natural gas since it was right nearby as well, but I'm building this in my basement so electric has less chance of burning down the house)

I've read both of the threads on this subject (both really long!) and will be setting up a similar system. I'm going to buy one PID/SSR combination and add a heat sink/fan from an old pentium 2 processor.

I plan on having the thermocouple in the HLT only as the boil kettle can be controlled in manual mode, then I can just switch which element is plugged in to the back of the box when I switch over to boil from bringing the HLT up to temp. This option was mentioned in the previous loooong thread.

Anyway I have been looking through differnt PIDs and trying to find out how you actually set one on manual? The specs on these things are really difficult to read sometimes. What setting am I changing to be able to set the percentage? I don't have a PID in my hands yet so it may be obvious when I do get one...

Also do you power your PID with the same 240V line as the element, or did you use just one leg of it? Did you run more than the one #10 wire to your control box?

I'll also try to get pictures of my setup when in progress/done I plan on using a rubber covered miller keg with the top cut out for either the boil kettle or the HLT. Both will have the 5500 watt 240V element that Pol used.

Thank you so much for this write Pol, it will make it so much easier for me to put something together.

Looking at this auction
http://cgi.ebay.com/PID-Temperature-Controller-Fah-Celsius-40A-SSR_W0QQitemZ200294956655QQcmdZViewItemQQptZBI_Automation_Components?hash=item200294956655&_trksid=p3286.c0.m14&_trkparms=72%3A1205|66%3A2|65%3A12|39%3A1|240%3A1318|301%3A1|293%3A1|294%3A50

bakins · Jan 3, 2009

conpewter said:
Anyway I have been looking through differnt PIDs and trying to find out how you actually set one on manual?

I've only used the Auber PID's and it's very easy to set to manual mode, just press the A/M button. I think I had to change an option in the setup to do that, but it is all in the manual. I guessing (?) others may be similar.

As for heatsinks, Auber at least sells a heatsink that was made for their SSR's and just needs ambient air, no fan necessary. I don't work for Auber, just a very satisfied customer.

The Pol · Jan 4, 2009

conpewter said:

well I decided to go electric for my HLT and boil kettle today (Was planning on natural gas since it was right nearby as well, but I'm building this in my basement so electric has less chance of burning down the house)

I've read both of the threads on this subject (both really long!) and will be setting up a similar system. I'm going to buy one PID/SSR combination and add a heat sink/fan from an old pentium 2 processor.

I plan on having the thermocouple in the HLT only as the boil kettle can be controlled in manual mode, then I can just switch which element is plugged in to the back of the box when I switch over to boil from bringing the HLT up to temp. This option was mentioned in the previous loooong thread.

Anyway I have been looking through differnt PIDs and trying to find out how you actually set one on manual? The specs on these things are really difficult to read sometimes. What setting am I changing to be able to set the percentage? I don't have a PID in my hands yet so it may be obvious when I do get one...

Also do you power your PID with the same 240V line as the element, or did you use just one leg of it? Did you run more than the one #10 wire to your control box?

I'll also try to get pictures of my setup when in progress/done I plan on using a rubber covered miller keg with the top cut out for either the boil kettle or the HLT. Both will have the 5500 watt 240V element that Pol used.

Thank you so much for this write Pol, it will make it so much easier for me to put something together.

Click to expand...

conpewter said:
Auber is great, I posted a thread on them previously, HIGHLY recommend doing business with them for PIDS and SSRs. My heat sink works wonderfully and does not need a fan, it runs pretty cool with ambient air.

Manual mode is easy to set... there is one parameter that you will need to change in the PID that I have listed in my parts list, to activate the manual option. Once that is done, you can simply toggle between AUTO and MANUAL with the touch of ONE button. When you are in manual mode, the SV will be your percentage... if you need help, I can help you through it. I spent an hour in my garage playing with parameters when I set mine up.

I ran ONE 240VAC line... 6/2 8/2 range cord to the control box. That is 4 wires... neutral and ground are 8AWG and the hots are 6AWG. I used ONE leg to power the PID with 14AWG wire. The PID has one HOT and one NEUTRAL. I used a simple ditribution block as seen in some pics, to split the hots, and neutral. I have a separate (7) terminal grounding bar in the box as well. EVERYTHING is grounded that can be... switches, outlets etc.

I can boil 7.5 gallons from 70F pretty quickly... reaching a boil after the sparge will be a piece of cake.

ALSO, someone questioned my useage of the 1/4" long thermocouple in my keggle, noting that it may not have a very accurate reading. Well, when I boil it reads 210F... so that sounds pretty accurate. Also, when I am chilling the wort, I stir periodically anyway to keep the wort circulating around the chiller. The small thermocouple works precisely as I predicted and desired. There is no difficulty in measuring the temp in the BK accurately.

Click to expand...

Stile · Jan 4, 2009

What kind of times are you getting from mash to mash out temps and are you recylcling at mash out temps for a period of time before transfering to your kettle or are you just fly sparging at mash out temps straight to your kettle?

The Pol · Jan 4, 2009

When the mash is complete, I dial in 175F on the HLT... I let it recirculate for 15-20 minutes. Once that time has passed, the mash is about 168F, the HLT is 175F. I then begin the sparge.

stevehaun · Jan 4, 2009

POL:
Why did you put the thermocouple in the BK? Did you do it to measure your chilling with an IC?

slnies · Jan 4, 2009

stevehaun said:
POL:
Why did you put the thermocouple in the BK? Did you do it to measure your chilling with an IC?

I will answer that. The PID needs the circuit complete, even for manual mode. In most PIDs the thermocouple or RTD is a requirement for proper operation. I think that this might be due to the fact that even in manual mode the PID has to use all the same equipment. That is that there is not different control circuit for manual. It may not matter if it is in a liquid or not, or even used to monitor temp. while in manual mode, but if you have to have a thermocouple anyway, why not put it in a useful place? On the same note: My PID's will register an error and not operate without the thermocouple wired in, even in manual mode. I will admit that I have not tried operating manual mode without a temperature monitor for my BCS-460 yet so I have no data for ya there. S. :mug:

stevehaun · Jan 4, 2009

I thought now that POL has all that horsepower, he would heat his mash and sparge water in his BK first.

Stile · Jan 4, 2009

stevehaun said:
I thought now that POL has all that horsepower, he would heat his mash and sparge water in his BK first.

I agree that using the E-keggle would be a bit faster in heating up all that Strike/Sparge water but as he's stated in the past, he uses that time to get all his other processes ready. I can foresee Pol streamlining his brewing in the future now that he has his Beast 2.0 in action

bakins · Jan 4, 2009

FWIW, my E-BK and E-HLT are wired exactly the same. Usually my strike water is ready far before I am. I'm measuring grains, salts, getting stuff together etc. I suppose If I got all that stuff ready the night before, it would help more...

The Pol · Jan 4, 2009

stevehaun said:
POL:
Why did you put the thermocouple in the BK? Did you do it to measure your chilling with an IC?

I have answered this before, but this thread is getting long.
#1 it allows me to see when I am about to a boil...
#2 I can easily monitor my chilling after he boil.
#3 I need it for the PID to run as previously noted.

conpewter · Jan 6, 2009

I can't find a 30 amp GFCI breaker around here, so I have a 2 pole 50 amp GFCI, tell me if this would be an issue.

50 amp GFCI breaker -> 8/3 wire -> 50 amp range receptacle -> 4 wire 8 range cord -> panel

My panel is going to be all 30 amp stuff, the element is a 240V 5500 watt so it shouldn't pull more than 24 amps or so. The panel has a PID and 40A SSR, switch for both legs of the 240V (rated 30 amps).

My line of thought is that this is like a 20 amp breaker, 15 amp receptacle with a heater plugged in that pulls 12 amps.

The Pol · Jan 6, 2009

You are right, your planned load should cause NO problem with the breaker or the 8AWG wire... but...

Here is the problem that I can see. You have a 50A breaker... and wire rated for 40A. If you are running a 50A breaker, you will want to run 6AWG wire to the outlet. Your breaker, is to protect your wire, but your 8AWG wire will theoretically only carry 40A, thus the breaker is not protecting your wire since it will take 50A to pop it.

I would run #6AWG wire to the outlet (pain in the butt I understand) so that the wire can handle as much as the breaker will.

My panel is all 30A max load too... so I ran a 30AGFCI with 10AWG (30A) wire to a range outlet that is rated for 50A (inconsequential) and then ran power to my rig on a #6AWG 50A range cord. My breaker will pop BEFORE my wires are overloaded... yours will pop AFTER the wire is overloaded.

If you cannot order a 30AGFCI, I would run the 6AWG to the outlet. I hope this helps? I had a horrible time finding a CutlerHammer 30AGFCI breaker, had to order in the end. Stay safe.

It is better to have BIG outlets and BIG wires and a smaller breaker. The breaker will cut power before you exceed the capacity of the wire. Not so good to have a BIG breaker and small wire and outlets... the outlets and wires will fail before the breaker ever gets a chance to do its job. If you go that route, you can just bypass a breaker and hard wire the outlet into the box, really.

kal · Jan 6, 2009

What Pol said. You need #6 cu (copper) wire after the 50A breaker, or use a 40A breaker. You can't and shouldn't do what you're doing. The breaker is there to protect the wire. But in your setup it isn't.

If a problem happens in your panel and more than your expected current is drawn, the wire will overheat before the breaker pops. Not good. This is how fires start.

conpewter said:
The panel has ... switch for both legs of the 240V (rated 30 amps).

What switch are you using? If you don't mind me asking...

Kal

conpewter · Jan 6, 2009

The switch is similar to this one.

Leviton 3032-2I 30 Amp Double-Pole Toggle Switch Industrial - Ivory

On further review I think I'll return my 50 amp GFCI breaker and the #8 wire, range cord/outlet and instead I'll use a normal 30 amp breaker ($7) and wire an outlet right next to the panel, then use the cord Kal linked for getting power over to the brewstand. I can then wire that directly into the panel. This keeps the outlet away from my sink, and gives me GFI protection where my brewstand is. I'll just need to find an outlet that fits the cord I'm ordering, or replace the plug on the end.

That will make it much easier if I decide to move at some point, I'll just unplug and go, I take the expensive parts with me.

kal · Jan 6, 2009

conpewter said:
The switch is similar to this one.

Leviton 3032-2I 30 Amp Double-Pole Toggle Switch Industrial - Ivory

Got it! Thanks!

On further review I think I'll return my 50 amp GFCI breaker and the #8 wire, range cord/outlet and instead I'll use a normal 30 amp breaker ($7) and wire an outlet right next to the panel, then use the cord Kal linked for getting power over to the brewstand. I can then wire that directly into the panel. This keeps the outlet away from my sink, and gives me GFI protection where my brewstand is. I'll just need to find an outlet that fits the cord I'm ordering, or replace the plug on the end.

That will make it much easier if I decide to move at some point, I'll just unplug and go, I take the expensive parts with me.

Exactly. This is the way I'm currently thinking of going too. Some other people I've talked to recommend doing everything this way as it's the "normal" way up to the 4-wire dryer outlet. This way it's extremely standard. All you've done is install a dryler outlet really.

After that point, anything you plug in that you build yourself (like the brew panel/etc) has bit more flexibility as far as following code goes since it's not part of the house itself.

Not to say that a 50A GFI protected line wired into the house isn't "code", it's just not very standard. You don't see them anywhere. While 30A dryer outlets are everywhere. Regular (non GFI) 30A 2-phase breakers are dirt cheap too.

Kal

nathan · Jan 6, 2009

Pretty awesome. I am finishing up my LP powered setup, and once I'm sure it's working right, will try and adapt this to managing my HLT and maybe the BK as well. Any reason why a bigger box and some extra parts wouldn't be adapted to manage both? I have two pumps and am still undecided if I'd want those on manual or automated yet, but I guess adding a few extra switched outlets would be simple enough. If you used thermowells in the vessels, maybe a person could just move the probes around, too.

I can get the basics here, but I really need to find an electrician to befriend so I don't cook myself.

bakins · Jan 6, 2009

kal said:
Not to say that a 50A GFI protected line wired into the house isn't "code", it's just not very standard. You don't see them anywhere

What If my range is in a wet area?

My 50A receptacle is actually inside a kitchen cabinet in my basement. (It keeps kids, etc. away). I changed basement designs after installing... On the other side is an unfinished wall, so if I ever sell and it has to be inspected, I'll just remove it, probably. In fact, I'll remove all the 6/3 wire - I bought it when copper was really high and it cost me a ton!

I had to use 50A as I run both elements at the same time, I start the boil after collecting first runnings. HLT and BK both have 4500W elements.

The Pol · Jan 7, 2009

Yall may be able to read more about my rig in a certain magazine before long. We will see how it pans out, they seem genuinely interested. Will keep ya posted so yall can get an issue if it happens.

thevalkrye · Jan 10, 2009

so the power distribution block lets you bring 220v into your panel and the you can tap off the 110v that you need from there?

do you have to balance each line when you do that or how is it done?

The Pol · Jan 10, 2009

Oh, I didnt balance anything. Basically each hot and the neutral are capable of being split into (4) lines in the dist. block. On items that required 120VAC I used one leg hot and one neutral... on the 240VAC circuit I used both hot legs. Though, on the 240VAC circuit remember to use a line from EACH hot leg that comes into the box, if you dont, it wont do anything at all.

The Pol · Jan 12, 2009

I dont think I have posted on a concern that was brought up about temps of wiring IN the box and AT the element electrical connections.

The control box, after boiling for over an hour, the SSR running a 1 second duty cycle at 60% power... was cool as a cucumber. The internal temp was aorund 80F in a 75F garage. The heat sink itself was warm to the touch, but that was about it.

The heating element connections... since they are potted in about 1" of epoxy, I cannot read temp at the actual connection. I CAN however read the temp at the PVC coupling that encompasses the epoxy potting that surrounds the connections. During the boil the temperature in this region reached nearly 100F, in a 75F garage.

The control box wires are all THHN insulated, the element cord is a standard 10AWG Dryer Cord.

kal · Jan 12, 2009

Pol,

Does the Camco 2963 Ripple 5500W element come with a 1" (?) nut for attaching it? If not, what did you use from where? I didn't think these sort of elements came with nuts (only the rubber washer) as they're typically screw-in replacements for hot water tanks no?

Kal

The Pol · Jan 12, 2009

Right on Kal...

I have an equipment video coming up this evening on "Pols Brew Vids". It will explain things a little better and give video of the setup.

You need to purchase a SS 1" straight pipe thread nut from BARGAINFITTINGS.com. They are reasonable, and fast shippers. Make it finger tight and it seals like a dream!

kal · Jan 12, 2009

Thanks Pol - crap. I completely missed that entry in your first post. Silly me.

(And one more thing I forgot to order). I hate having to wait around for 1 or 2 things to arrive before the entire thing can be assembled. Bound to happen since I have about 10,000 things needed for my setup!

Kal

The Pol · Jan 12, 2009

It happens... I hear ya bro. I get SO impatient when I am buidling~

conpewter · Jan 12, 2009

I've gotten most of my parts as well. I'm waiting on my 30 amp GFCI cord and the straight thread nuts as well (I wanted to find a cheaper/local version but no luck). At this point I have to determine where I'll mount the control box and then I can figure out the orientation of everything inside. My rig is stationary in the basement so I have more options of where to mount stuff.

BLING BLING Electric HERMS Conversion

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