BLING BLING Electric HERMS Conversion

[conpewter]

Hey ya'll. My build is going along alright, still waiting on my 30 amp GFCI cord, but will hopefully be here tomorrow.

The PID I ordered on Ebay unfortuantely does not seem to have a manual mode (I'll have to explore it once I have power to it, but I've read through the documentation and I don't see anything about manual/percentage mode etc.)

So the PID will work fine for the HLT, but I was planning on switching plugs and using it for the boil kettle as well (both have 5500W ULWD elements). I'm wondering if it would work well to put a switch in that would switch one of the legs such that while getting to boiling I run on 220V but when I reach boiling I switch one leg to neutral and then I'm running my 5500W element on 110V and thus really only have 2750W running to keep the boil going.

I'd prefer to not buy another PID just so I can control the boil element in manual mode, thoughts?

 

[kal]

I'm wondering if it would work well to put a switch in that would switch one of the legs such that while getting to boiling I run on 220V but when I reach boiling I switch one leg to neutral and then I'm running my 5500W element on 110V and thus really only have 2750W running to keep the boil going.

That's an interesting idea! Many people do something similar in that they have two elements (2500-3000W each) and turn one off once boil is reached but your way is very elegant.

One thing to keep in keep in mind is that this switch would have to be a "break before make" switch so that you didn't short one leg to neutral. It would also have to be a 30A switch

Kal

 

[bakins]

I'm wondering if it would work well to put a switch in that would switch one of the legs such that while getting to boiling I run on 220V but when I reach boiling I switch one leg to neutral and then I'm running my 5500W element on 110V and thus really only have 2750W running to keep the boil going.

Interesting... I thought about something similar for a slightly different project. It *should* work, I'd just be sure I checked and doubled checked the wiring and switching. I don't see a reason why it won't work. Will a 3 way switch work for this?? (or something larger but similar). I'm not 100% sure how GFCI would play into this. Be sure you ground pot/element as well.

Interesting.

 

[The Pol]

It wont work...

If you cut your voltage to 110VAC, you cut your watts by over 75%... meaning you will only have 1155W for the boil, which will not suffice.

I run my 5500W element at 60% and can keep a decent rolling boil, but if I ran it at 25%... Id have nothing.

 

[kal]

It wont work...

If you cut your voltage to 110VAC, you cut your watts by over 75%... meaning you will only have 1155W for the boil, which will not suffice.

Cutting the voltage from 220 to 110 will cut the power exactly in half. P=VI (power = voltage x current)

I run my 5500W element at 60% and can keep a decent rolling boil, but if I ran it at 25%... Id have nothing.

He's talking about running the 5500W/240V element full tilt using a 120V line instead of 240 so assuming your house mains is really at 120V per leg, you should get half of 5500W which is 2750W.

I'm not entirely comfortable with the switching setup however. Since you're switching one leg input hot line from the other leg hot line to a neutral. If for any reason the switch did a "make before break" you'd short the other leg hot line to neutral and (in the best situation) pop the breaker.

Kal

 

[The Pol]

No...

This element is not a 220VAC element, it is a 240VAC element. SO cutting the voltage to 110VAC means you are cutting the rated power of the element by MORE than 1/2. If he runs the element at 220VAC, he will only have 4622W... at 110 he will have 1155W.

Also, if you run a 240VAC element (2-120VAC hots) on 120VAC... (1-120VAC hot and 1-neutral) you do NOT get half the watts, you get 1/4. Ask anyone running a RIMS with a 3500W or 4500W heater on 120VAC. If you run a 240VAC element on 120VAC, you get 1/4 the watts...

The only thing that makes the element 240VAC is that it is fed by (2) 120VAC lines... take one away and you have 120VAC and 1/4 the watt output.

Again, it wont boil your wort.

 

[conpewter]

Yeah looked it up, since resistance is constant, the element will run at around 1/4 power, which apparently is not enough to keep a rolling boil going (I have no experience in this of course).

The Pol is your system insulated? If not do you think that would make it keep a boil with 1/4 the power?

Otherwise I'm going to need to figure out another way to control the boil as I don't want to run it at 5500 W for 60 minutes.

 

[The Pol]

Yeah looked it up, since resistance is constant, the element will run at around 1/4 power, which apparently is not enough to keep a rolling boil going (I have no experience in this of course).

THANK YOU! 1/4 the watts...

Even if it was insulated... mine is not... man 1155W is less than my HLT. You will not keep a rolling boil going in a keg, kettle, probably not even an enclosed cooler.

I think you will have to work something else out.

 

[conpewter]

Well I'll have to make sure there is no way to make my PID do manual mode. If not then I'll need to either get another PID/SSR combo for the boil pot, or perhaps use something from an electric range (infinite switch). A PID/SSR combo is just overkill for this (Heck it is overkill for my HLT too)

Whatchya guys think of this relay? I've run out of money for this project so even though I'd like another SSR, a relay would work (I could always use the SSR I do have for the quick switching of the boil kettle, and the relay for the HLT which shouldn't need to switch nearly as quickly)

http://www.sciplus.com/singleItem.cfm/terms/13805


I know I'd still need something to control the relay.

 

[Spine]

Well I'll have to make sure there is no way to make my PID do manual mode. If not then I'll need to either get another PID/SSR combo for the boil pot, or perhaps use something from an electric range (infinite switch). A PID/SSR combo is just overkill for this (Heck it is overkill for my HLT too)

Whatchya guys think of this relay? I've run out of money for this project so even though I'd like another SSR, a relay would work (I could always use the SSR I do have for the quick switching of the boil kettle, and the relay for the HLT which shouldn't need to switch nearly as quickly)

American Science & Surplus : High Power Relay

I know I'd still need something to control the relay.

If you have some basic soldering experience you could make a simple PWM controller using a 555 timer that will allow you to adjust your output power from 0-100%, with no PID controller needed (although you wouldnt get temperature control (which people dont use for their boil kettles) and no temperature display.

The parts for a simple 555 PWM controller should run less than 10$.

link CD's New Electric Wort Boiler

Mike

 

[The Pol]

Well I'll have to make sure there is no way to make my PID do manual mode. If not then I'll need to either get another PID/SSR combo for the boil pot, or perhaps use something from an electric range (infinite switch). A PID/SSR combo is just overkill for this (Heck it is overkill for my HLT too)

Whatchya guys think of this relay? I've run out of money for this project so even though I'd like another SSR, a relay would work (I could always use the SSR I do have for the quick switching of the boil kettle, and the relay for the HLT which shouldn't need to switch nearly as quickly)

American Science & Surplus : High Power Relay

I know I'd still need something to control the relay.

That relay requires 80VAC to switch... I dunno what you are going to get to control that relay, that is a large signal. When looking at your PID, see if it has a manual and auto mode, generally shown with an A/M. It is called % output sometimes... sucks if it doesnt have it.

 

[bakins]

If you cut your voltage to 110VAC, you cut your watts by over 75%... meaning you will only have 1155W for the boil, which will not suffice.

Crap I knew that. Gonna use that principle in a RIMS system. Had a brain fart, I guess...


May could have 2 elements (120V each) and switch them on off independently if you really do not want another PID and SSR.

 

[The Pol]

Crap I knew that. Gonna use that principle in a RIMS system. Had a brain fart, I guess...


May could have 2 elements (120V each) and switch them on off independently if you really do not want another PID and SSR.

If you are going to go through all that trouble, and drilling in your kettle, you might as well save a few bucks for another PID and SSR.

 

[conpewter]

Well got the panel hooked up last night, the PID does not have any manual control. I think I'm going to just go buy the PID from auberins that you all have since we know it works (I found one in ebay that was 1/2 the price and said it had manual mode, but I can't find any information on it online and the feedback on the same item in an earlier auction says it does not work as described).

I have room in my control box for a 2nd PID and 30 amp plug, but I don't have the power. I'm using the (very cool!) cord that Kal pointed out at one point (30 amp 4 wire GFCI 17'). So I don't think I will put the second one in, instead I'll swap.

That leaves me with the old PID (that does work, but only in PID mode). I also will have another thermocouple for it (I ordered a 10' one instead of the 3' one it came with) so I suppose I could either sell it, or use it to control temps someplace else (I already have a fermentation freezer and keezer though). Maybe I'll use it as a thermostat out in my shop for my new heater fuzzy logic HVAC!

Thanks for the help on this guys, I'll start a thread once it is up and running and I can do pictures.

 

[The Pol]

Sweet glad to hear it is coming together!!

 

[kal]

I have room in my control box for a 2nd PID and 30 amp plug, but I don't have the power. I'm using the (very cool!) cord that Kal pointed out at one point (30 amp 4 wire GFCI 17'). So I don't think I will put the second one in, instead I'll swap.

Consider putting both PIDs in and using a switch to choose which is active. That's what I'm doing so that only one element will be on at once.

Kal

 

[The Pol]

Consider putting both PIDs in and using a switch to choose which is active. That's what I'm doing so that only one element will be on at once.

Kal

Good idea Kal... but if you are only using an SSR... you will always have one hot leg to the element remember. If you are truely talking about only switching the PID on and off. True the element wont heat, but dont forget abou the current being there. Build on brothers.

 

[Stile]

Well, my build is on hold due to the economy dropping a hugh smelly load of downsizing on my head........ let got after 13 years. The good news is that my former boss who sold the company i was just laid off from, he wants to hire me to work for him.

Problem is that he has a non compete clause from the sale that states how he can't hire people from my company for a certain period of time. Now the way it was written, it was ment to protect my company from my former boss in trying to hire people away from them. I was laid off... not lured away. So i have a call into my former company to see if they will allow me to persue this new employment.

The worst case scenairo is i hire a labor atty and sue them. The one thing on my side is that California is a Right to Work state, and these matters usually work in favor of the employee.

So i wait....... hopefully i'll be back on track with my build soon.

 

[The Pol]

Damn Stile...

That IS bad news, brewing aside. I just recieved my order from Midwest today, my hops from Nikobrew yesterday... Now I just need time off work to brew it up and video it!!

 

[kal]

Good idea Kal... but if you are only using an SSR... you will always have one hot leg to the element remember. If you are truely talking about only switching the PID on and off. True the element wont heat, but dont forget abou the current being there. Build on brothers.

That's very true. One leg of the 240v (ie: 120V) will be active to the element. Something to keep in mind. IMHO You should always turn everything off *completely* when cleaning. I'm going to have a large disconnect switch on the wall for this. (Or someone could simply unplug the 30A plug from the wall or unplug the element from their control box. I prefer switches as it's faster/easier).

My build is going .... slowly. Got my 16x16x8 NEMA box for the control panel yesterday along with a bunch of pilot lights/switches/alarms/etc but they sent me 240V incandescent bulbs for all of my pilot lights instead of 120V LED bulbs. One of the switch contactors was broken too. New ones are in the mail. In my Auberins order one SSR was cracked in half, one out of three PIDs didn't work right (output voltage didn't work), and they sent the wrong type of RTD sensors. Sheesh. Everyone's been good at replacing stuff but man, have I ever been unlucky. My B3 disconnects are on backorder for 6 weeks just to make matters worse. I've got a pile of equipment in the corner now. It's not making beer yet.

Kal

 

[conpewter]

Consider putting both PIDs in and using a switch to choose which is active. That's what I'm doing so that only one element will be on at once.

Kal

Thanks! I did consider this, but I am just so low on cash that I don't want to spend more on a 2nd SSR, outlet and switch. I'll probably have a PID controller (no manual mode) in the classified section here soon to try and recoup some funds. I did put the order in for the better controller from Auber, so that will work out nice. The hole I have cut out will work perfectly for the new one; a dremil does slow work in an ammo box

Once I get the new controller and my new/longer thermocouple I'll be able to start doing some test runs. I still need to install my range hood/s to vent the excess moisture (got two 30" range hoods on craigslist for $35).

Oh also I have my 30 amp DPST switch installed so I can shut off power completely to the element, but my PID stays on. I also have controls for my pump mounted in the same box.

 

[kal]

Sounds good! Take lots of pictures!

Kal

 

[The Pol]

WHAAAA?? B3, backorder? Whaaaa??? heh.

 

[bgrubb7]

Can you post the link to the place you got your Ripp element from. I remember seeing it posted around here somewhere, but can't seem to find it.

 

[The Pol]

Here it is! I just used it today to boil up some Orange Cascade... AWESOME brew day. I hit 85% eff. !!!!!! I have a thread on the brew day up with tons of pics and vid.

Shop RonsHomeAndHardware.com For Small Appliances, Hardware, Housewares, Organic Cleaning Products, CFLs, Weber Grills & So Much More

 

[kal]

Got my RIPP elements from Ron's Home & Hardware too as I couldn't find them anywhere locally in Canada. $17/element is a great price. The $26 for S/H to Canada hurt however.

Kal

 

[conpewter]

Bought mine from there as well, for the price it was worth the shipping.

 

[bgrubb7]

Thanks. That's the best price on the net that I've seen so far.

 

[The Pol]

Yeah, I love near Rons... Ace Hardware had the SAME element for almost $30... what a RIPP! HA HA

 

[conpewter]

Hey guys, for hops I normally use the 5 gallon paint strainer bag attached to a PVC coupling that I've seen on here before
https://www.homebrewtalk.com/f11/lil-sparky-tha-man-40738/index3.html#post618265

I think now that I have the electric element in, that the bag will be sitting against the element. Do you think it will melt on to it? I imagine water will always be flowing past it due to convection, but just wondering if you guys use a similar item and have had success or failure.